Photography. Art or Crap?

[Lava Lamp]

Lotta response here. I'm not too fond of people calling themselves artists, but all in all Irakly would seem to qualify. Have you looked at his work? Also, I seem to have read some bio stuff from him suggeting that he and his friends suffered some real consequences (i.e., prison) in pursuit of their art while under communist rule. Again, that gives him credibility.

Now that doesn't mean I like it when he says my dog/flower/kid/sunset photo is crap and I would argue that just 'cause his photos have nekked women, it doesn't make them art. But he's never said that - at least I didn't notice. (The truth is, his dog/flower/kid/sunset stuff would be better than mine if he shot that.)

What's wrong with someone who can walk the walk challenging us to raise the bar? (if I mix cliches.)

[adina]

Not saying that I have any "art", but I'd be thrilled to see other peoples. And I'm very interested in seeing what other people think qualifies as art. And if this new forum would encourage those who are more advanced to post more images, and participate in discussions about them, I think those of us who are not so advanced could really benefit from it, if we choose to.

adina

[natatbeach]

especially the way he talked to his little clouds (tooo tooo too totootot) ....just kidding

sort of...I didi like he talked to clouds...

[natatbeach]

I mean art (a.k.a crap) to post for slaughtering --- I mean discussion---so when will we get this new forum up and running...so I can lose what little photographic self esteem I have----I mean so I can learn more about my vision)

seriously...I'm ready...on your mark get set....where do we go...? ;)

[Trevor Ash]

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

[opus]

Ha Ha, Trevor, at first I thought you said "emoticons".

[Lara]

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

Soon Trevor. John is getting things put together to open up the forum.

Nat. Be ready. I believe the forum will in the same section as all of the forums here.

[Irakly Shanidze]

Trevor, I strongly believe that we will have it next Monday.

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

[Janie]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

[opus]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

Excellent points, Janie!

[Outdoorsman]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

[Trevor Ash]

I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

Sure, but does that make you an artist or just a better photographer?

[Irakly Shanidze]

well, it depends upon how unique your vision is and how well you can communicate it to your audience (or viewdience for that matter)

Sure, but does that make you an artist or just a better photographer?

[Trevor Ash]

well, it depends upon how unique your vision is and how well you can communicate it to your audience (or viewdience for that matter)

So, unique vision + efffective communication of vision (via chosen medium/s) = artist?

And something can be defined as being "artwork" if it invokes feeling or emotion upon the audience?

I looked up "art" at webster.com and found the following "ART implies a personal, unanalyzable creative power". That sounds about right to me. The two keywords to me are "personal" and "unanalyzable". Wouldn't it then mean that attempting to define or label what qualifies as art is just as personal and wholly unanalyzable?

To me, this just makes arguing "what is art?" something not worth arguing since there is bound to be at least one individual that won't think of a candidate being worthy of the title "art". That decision would be that person's truth. To borrow from another phrase..."Art is in the eye of the beholder".

MY HEAD HURTS

Let me apologize for the short responses......I don't want anyone to think I am trolling or have an agenda to push (I assure you, I'm just interested in the topic and the answers people provide)

[Asylum Steve]

Trevor,

First of all I understand your last post, and certainly can't say you're wrong. Still, we're trying to hold off on these discussions until the new forum is up and running. Personally, I think we should lock this thread for that very reason.

But I think you're missing a crucial point: that fact that everyone has a different point of view and idea of what art is is the exact reason we SHOULD talk about it, analyze it, discuss it, and yes ever FIGHT about it.

Art is a very personal and passionate thing for some of us, something to be shouted from the rooftops and defended constantly. Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature.

Calling something that is such a large part of our beings and something that we have such strong opinions on "unanalyzable" and therefore not open for constant discussion would to me make little or no sense.

BTW, the big question is NOT "what is art?" We already know the answer to that...

Rather, the new forum will want to know things like "what inspires you to create and why?", "whose work inspires you and why?", "what types of work move you when you view them and why?" and MANY, MANY similar questions and topics.

We don't want to explore the dictionary's definition of art, but rather from the much more complex point of view of the human experience...

Well, for reasons I've already explained, I'm going to leave it at this for now. See you in the new forum!

[opus]

Steve, I disagree with you that this discussion must be put on hold until the new forum. If I have a thought and must wait to post it, it may just disappear. Just as the perfect moment can disappear, just as art of any kind never exists unless acted upon. Thoughts are perishable, and there's no reason to have to wait for the "proper forum" to discuss them.

This thread can be moved to that forum when it opens, and might be a good idea to lead people interested in this subject to that forum. Until then, we should still have an outlet for our thoughts.

[Trevor Ash]

Sounds good to me Steve. Hopefully this post can be moved but if not I'll look forward to seeing some of you in the new forum.....I'll reserve future comments till then

[walterick]

I just can't stay out of this

Steve, out of respect for you I'll make this brief:

I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement:
"Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature."

I disagree because to me, art is silencing not argumentative. Like beauty, when you truly, deeply behold something beautiful, you are moved to stillness. I think art is the same way.

There, I'm done

Rick

[Asylum Steve]

Rick, knowing what a clever guy you are, I'm sure this was your intention (to test me perhaps?), but your statement simply REINFORCES what I said to Trevor.

Obviousy, we're not talking about the experience itself, but the TOPIC of art, and you've not only expressed your feelings about the subject, but by disagreeing with me, you've shown you are willing to argue the point...

Also, your opinion, as valid as it is, is only one of MANY. And it is these various opinions that make up the aurgumentative aspect of art that I refer to...

Art is meant to elicit the entire spectrum of human emotions from us, the profound silence you mention being just one of them. In your case, the discussion could well be WHY you react to art this way? But it's a discussion nonetheless...

Powerful art can make people laugh, cry, feel happy, feel sad, feel peaceful, feel angry, feel elated, feel depressed, feel enlightened, or feel confused. And so on and so on...

Each person's individual response to art, when either creating it or viewing it, is a personal thing. That means whatever way we act and react is valid...

The question is: do we want to talk about it?

Obviously we do, or else we wouldn't be having this discussion and there would be no need for a new forum... ;)

-Steve

I just can't stay out of this

Steve, out of respect for you I'll make this brief:

I disagree wholeheartedly with your statement:
"Even with tolerant and open minded people, the subject is and SHOULD BE argumentative by nature."

I disagree because to me, art is silencing not argumentative. Like beauty, when you truly, deeply behold something beautiful, you are moved to stillness. I think art is the same way.

There, I'm done

Rick

[MJS]

Boy do I love this. Civilized, yet passionate debate on an issue, not blatant attacks and character assassination. (Hope I spelled that right). Now if our two political parties (three) would just do that in the media.

MJS

[Asylum Steve]

Kelly,

Agree with you on all counts. I keep forgetting how easy it will be to move this thread to the new forum.

My fear was exactly the same as yours. That some good thoughts and points would get buried in this thread, lost and not brought across to the new forum...

-Steve

Steve, I disagree with you that this discussion must be put on hold until the new forum. If I have a thought and must wait to post it, it may just disappear. Just as the perfect moment can disappear, just as art of any kind never exists unless acted upon. Thoughts are perishable, and there's no reason to have to wait for the "proper forum" to discuss them.

This thread can be moved to that forum when it opens, and might be a good idea to lead people interested in this subject to that forum. Until then, we should still have an outlet for our thoughts.

[Grandpaw]

I would just like to add my comments to the post.

First of all my goal is to try and compose a picture I think is worth looking at to me. I do not get into the technical part of the photo as much as just trying to take a picture I enjoy looking at and one that will bring back memories and enjoyment. And yes I do look at each picture I take and try and figure out how to improve it so a better picture might be taken the next time.

I guess I may never create any art while taking pictures because that's just not why I use a camera. I may be wrong but I think if we took a poll among most people that use a camera or ask them to discribe why they take pictures somehow I just don't believe the word ART would show up very much at all.

If you desire to take it to that level I think that is just great but I personnally do not have to achieve art to enjoy using a camera.

In the past I visited the Audio Review site often but there are people there that think in a simular manner. If someone that has a home theater dosen't spend hours adjusting all the fine tunning or pay a company a high fee to come out and tweak their system it just can't be worth watching. I have done some basic adjusting the best I can and enjoy watching my system. I am not an Audiofile with my Home Theater just like I am not an Artist with my camera but I do enjoy both.

I have interest in both subjects but I'm not obsessed with either one. I haven't looked at any of your pictures but just remember if everyone were as good as artist as you, that would make your pictures common and would not stand above others like myself. So I too will say your welcome from a memory maker that makes the Artists that use a camera look so good.

[Irakly Shanidze]

Hm... That's the first time I've seen artists compared to audionuts. Probably the last thing that real artists would do is to waste time on tweaking cameras. If it is your experience, most likely you've been hanging out with wrong people Yes, photography as art is an obsession, but it is not the obsession with bells and wistles, trust me on that one.
You are right, however, that most people who use cameras do not think of it as art, and this is tragic news for photography. The idea of the new forum is to let people see what cameras can be used for and encourage them to realize their own creative potential.

I would just like to add my comments to the post.

First of all my goal is to try and compose a picture I think is worth looking at to me. I do not get into the technical part of the photo as much as just trying to take a picture I enjoy looking at and one that will bring back memories and enjoyment. And yes I do look at each picture I take and try and figure out how to improve it so a better picture might be taken the next time.

I guess I may never create any art while taking pictures because that's just not why I use a camera. I may be wrong but I think if we took a poll among most people that use a camera or ask them to discribe why they take pictures somehow I just don't believe the word ART would show up very much at all.

If you desire to take it to that level I think that is just great but I personnally do not have to achieve art to enjoy using a camera.

In the past I visited the Audio Review site often but there are people there that think in a simular manner. If someone that has a home theater dosen't spend hours adjusting all the fine tunning or pay a company a high fee to come out and tweak their system it just can't be worth watching. I have done some basic adjusting the best I can and enjoy watching my system. I am not an Audiofile with my Home Theater just like I am not an Artist with my camera but I do enjoy both.

I have interest in both subjects but I'm not obsessed with either one. I haven't looked at any of your pictures but just remember if everyone were as good as artist as you, that would make your pictures common and would not stand above others like myself. So I too will say your welcome from a memory maker that makes the Artists that use a camera look so good.

[Trevor Ash]

most people who use cameras do not think of it as art, and this is tragic news for photography

Now this (emphasis placed pn the last portion of his sentence) is something I would like to see argued in the new forum. Is photography that is not art tragic for photography?

[Grandpaw]

The point I was trying to make (and obviously did not do very well) is that these are just two of several hobbies I have. What I was trying to compare when I mentioned the reference to Audio was the obsession that everything has to be perfect to be able to enjoy it, not the getting caught up in all the bells and whistles part. I enjoy all of my hobbies very much and try to do my best in each. Because none of them has reached an art form in no way diminishes my enjoyment of each of them.

I applaud people that seek perfection in anything, that's great! Some of my other hobbies are Archery, woodworking and being a grandpaw. I have not advanced far enough to be on the Archery United States Olympic team and I do not have any furniture pictured in a Fine Woodworking magazine. And no I haven't been voted Grandfather of the Year by any organization but I can tell you one thing, when my kids and grandkids say that's a great picture or show off something like a desk, bed or toy box I have made for them, not being called an Artist doesn't make me any less proud of what I have done.

Again I will say I admire people that seek perfection at anything. The point I am hopefully getting across this time is I can have fun and enjoy myself without reaching the highest level in each hobby. I do try and do my best and improve each time I do something and for me that's what makes me happy.

By the way Trevor, I own two Nikon F's with FTN meters on them. Bought my fisrt one in 1970.