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  1. #51
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    I would prefer to leave the debate about what is art and what isn't for the art forum, because it can (andbelieve me, it will) detract us from the point of this discussion.

    Most certainly, the way people see and perceive the world is influenced by the surrounding, and it is wonderful. Sometimes this influence is so strong that merely by looking at a fine art nude photo I can fairly precisely determine which city in Poland or Czech Rebublic it came from. I came from society that was closed for the outside world for almost seventy years, and believe me, I now how bad is not to be able to share your work with people of different cultural backgrounds and to see what they do. Having a forum that would enable diverse population of photographers share their artistic vision will be a great thing.

    I am not sure yet how this type of forum has to be moderated. I am not even sure that it needs to be moderated at all except of course censoring obsenity and porn. I've been teaching creative side of photography for two years, and have seen discussions that my students went through. It seems to me that on this level things tend to resolve themselves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian
    And now I ask you Irakly; when is an abstract photograph considered art?

    But back to art in general; where people live, how old they are, what they know, their history, their artistic background, their social status, etc, these are all things that influence how we perceive certain photographs as art (whether we are the ones making it or viewing it). This board is also a reflection of all those different people, so take that into consideration.

    The truth of the matter is that there is no broad definition of art. What might be considered art by you and even millions of other people doesn't automatically label it "art".

    I do agree with you that people should try to take more than just a carbon copy of what they see, but not me, not you or anyone else can define what art really is and so we're back at square one; how are we going to moderate a forum like this? Sounds more than a fair question or not?

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Asylum Steve
    IMO, a new Art Photography Forum will only succeed if the emphasis is NOT on the posted images, but rather the PHILOSOPHY of photography as art, the VISION of photography as art, the TOOLS and TECHNIQUES of photography as art, the WORKFLOW of photography as art, and the BUSINESS of photography as art.

    What I mean is the discussions of this forum will need to be MORE ABSTRACT and celebrate the WORLD of art, the PASSION of art and how we can all tap into our creativity and be a part of it if we really want to...
    Workflow, business, tools and techniques of photography as art? Mmm... I sense that you're thinking more of a forum for philosophers than a photograpy art discussion forum...
    Last edited by Elysian; 09-17-2004 at 04:22 PM.

  3. #53
    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    Well...

    First of all, I'm in favor of having the forum, whatever it turns out to be...

    What I meant in my first post was if it becomes simply a venue to post pics that we give the thumbs up or down and argue why they are or aren't "artisitc", I'll probably lose interest in pretty fast.

    Joe, as you already mentioned, simply creating a new forum for this purpose alone will not in any way guarantee a quantum leap in the quality of images over what we already have...

    To me, a vibrant forum dealing with the artistic aspects of photography should be similar in scope to the other specialty forums, IOW a meeting place for our members that either want to explore their creative and artisitc potential through their work, or actually pursue part time or full time careers as photo artists.

    The things I mention that aren't image related (at least in the sense of posting images) are often just as important in exploring one's art. This means topics like how to nurture ideas, how to go about expressing ideas through imagery, how to organize, present, show, and market your artwork.

    And yes, how to create certain types of images through discussions of equipment and technique.

    Just throwing out ideas...

    Quote Originally Posted by Elysian
    Workflow, business, tools and techniques of photography as art? Mmm... I sense that you're thinking more of a forum for philosophers than a photograpy art discussion forum...
    "Riding along on a carousel...tryin' to catch up to you..."

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  4. #54
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    Steve, you are absolutely right. This forum has to become a hang-out place for photo artists where all topics related to creative side of photography will be discussed.
    Irakly


    The things I mention that aren't image related (at least in the sense of posting images) are often just as important in exploring one's art. This means topics like how to nurture ideas, how to go about expressing ideas through imagery, how to organize, present, show, and market your artwork.

    And yes, how to create certain types of images through discussions of equipment and technique.

    Just throwing out ideas...[/QUOTE]

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze
    Steve, you are absolutely right. This forum has to become a hang-out place for photo artists where all topics related to creative side of photography will be discussed.
    Iarakly, several times you wrote "I agree John", "I agree Steve", "you're so smart Steve", but I still have no clue what the connection is between an art photography forum and your comment which was: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
    I really think it's time for you to speak up for yourself and tell us in the most honest way what you really meant with your initial post, instead of turning this into a discussion about a forum.
    Please explain to me (because I really don't get it) how your frustrations about all these boring shots will end once you have 'your' forum. I quote for the 2nd time what you wrote: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
    You don't share your ideas about art in the critique forum that needs it most (strange, because you do organize workshops), but at the same time you're the strongest supporter of this new forum. Sorry to say so, but that tastes like snobbish elitism to me.

    Anyhow, I think the forum is a good idea, but allow me to have my doubts, which doesn't mean that I won't put any effort into it to MAKE it work.

    Ok, I've spent enough time in this thread and I have no intention to hijack it.

    C'ya around

  6. #56
    mooo...wooh hoooh! schrackman's Avatar
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    I'm all for an Art forum to creatively challenge us as photographers, irregardless of anyone's skill level, and I suggest Irakly to be the first one to post and be critiqued!

    Ray

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  7. #57
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    That's exactly what I wanted. I wanted a new forum for photo artists that everybody can read and discover for themselves what art of photography really is. I do not want "my forum", I want to see art here, that's all.
    I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
    Irakly


    Please explain to me (because I really don't get it) how your frustrations about all these boring shots will end once you have 'your' forum. I quote for the 2nd time what you wrote: "I wrote this because I am just so blarsted bored with pictures that I see here!!!".
    You don't share your ideas about art in the critique forum that needs it most (strange, because you do organize workshops), but at the same time you're the strongest supporter of this new forum. Sorry to say so, but that tastes like snobbish elitism to me.

    Anyhow, I think the forum is a good idea, but allow me to have my doubts, which doesn't mean that I won't put any effort into it to MAKE it work.

    Ok, I've spent enough time in this thread and I have no intention to hijack it.

    C'ya around[/QUOTE]

  8. #58
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    Gladly Meanwhile you can bash whatever I have in the Galery.

    Quote Originally Posted by schrackman
    I'm all for an Art forum to creatively challenge us as photographers, irregardless of anyone's skill level, and I suggest Irakly to be the first one to post and be critiqued!

    Ray

  9. #59
    Co-Moderator, Photography as Art forum megan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze
    WIth photography it is easy, you just press a little button. Countless "artists" who do not put any effort into taking a photo other than pressing that little button do really undermine reputation of photography because they create a steady stream of substandard, mindless and simply boring photos that can tickle fancies only of those who took them.
    Have you ever gone to a county fair way outside of a major city and seen the art contest section? You'll never want to see another crappy watercolor of someone's rosegarden again. The banal is everywhere. VF is where we post our crappy rosegarden watercolors

    We're at all levels here. I only partially agree about the technofiles always trying out new equipment. But if I never heard someone talking about this new camera they tried, I still might be shooting my Minolta X-370 and never tried out a Holga.

    I do see your point and your frustration. But I don't know if the goals of this website, which are commercial and to promote review and discourse about *equipment*, jive with that view. Ya know? I feel your pain - but I also like coming here and seeing people grow with there photography. It does happen....
    Megan

  10. #60
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    We can do both

    Megan-
    I believe we can address both needs without hurting the site. If Irakly and others (like me) are willing to cultivate and nurture a new section, people will use it and it will grow. And ultimately it will enrichen and help the site as a whole.
    Photo-John

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  11. #61
    ...just believe natatbeach's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    Megan-
    I believe we can address both needs without hurting the site. If Irakly and others (like me) are willing to cultivate and nurture a new section, people will use it and it will grow. And ultimately it will enrichen and help the site as a whole.
    have you ever had a photo contest (with no prizes---that way you don't get an influx of crap entires for prizes) that people or administrators select photos on really tight standards? I know critique has it's own "chosen photo" but maybe if you incorporated that photo as an automatic finalist and then added others...more of a "premier" type of gallery...don't know how much trouble...but maybe in a way that people could cast votes. just throwing ideas out....I was really impressed in the VERY old forums at the gallery(was it vision or something likethat) that had the most amazing work....anway my two pennies

    ..and maybe have a beginner....amateur...and advanced section...that way people could select which category as their skills grow...
    "I was not trying to be shocking, or to be a pioneer.
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  12. #62
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    Another aspect...

    A couple of days ago I posted a photo in the Gallery, and it was deleted. Given how uptight some people are, it came at no surprize to me, but got me thinking... If we have the Art Forum and possibly a gallery for it, we should expect to see different forms of artistic expression there, some of which may be hard to swallow for the aforementioned uptight individuals. Therefore, both forum and gallery must have certain rules on who can look at them, and also there must be some technical means to prevent certain events. My biggest concerns are offending some members of the audience (everybody knows that it takes only one offended to ruin a great idea) and offending artists by censoring their work with a blunt instrument of narrow-mindedness of people in chharge (whoever that may be).
    The first problem is fairly easily addessed by standard methods like access bariers with disclaimers, age limits, etc.
    The second problem requires a very effective policy. First, the forum and the gallery should have several moderators who cannot make unilateral decisions on removing someone's artwork permanently. On the other hand, if someone posts a photo that is clearly offensive and has no artistic value, moderators have to have some means to deal with it immediately. I think it can be done by a temorary suspension for, say, 24 hours. During this time other moderators will see the offending material and make a collective cool-headed decision on how really inappropriate the piece is, and what should be done about it.

  13. #63
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    You know, I have been reading this, yet staying out of it. However, I simply can't sit back and absorb it any longer.

    Irakly -- Your dialogue leaves me to believe that you are a spoiled and petulant human being with misplaced arrogance. While you may come one here and imply that your bogus venom is a "rally cry" for people to put up better work, it's nothing more than an attempt to stroke your own ego.

    I have seen your work on this board and on your site. I admire it and believe that you do a nice job. No better than the local photgrapher in my town, but nice nonetheless. I could only hope to understand lighting, angles and posing as well as you and he understands it. However, it does not give you license to come in here and p|ss and moan about how everyone else sucks and you need a board all to yourself so you don't have to mix your stuff in with the little people.

    I respect those who have made this a civil thread, particularly after the initial post, but I do not have half as much class as they do. Instead I recommend to those that spend all their time sniffing out other's "crap", those who whine about the boards policies, and those who are offended by amateurish imagery, simply find a site that fits your needs -- which appears to be ego based. Given some of the other sites I have seen, I suspect that you are afraid of being one of the little people elsewhere.

    A few months ago I discovered this board and I have gained knowledge and inspiration since. Almost on a daily basis. I have tremendous respect for my peers criticism and suggestions. Whether it be toward one of my images or someone elses. I am here to LEARN. I'm a long, long way from mastering this art. The people here will bring me that much closer.

  14. #64
    Senior Member shesells's Avatar
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    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

    I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
    Irakly

    Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
    Kit


  15. #65
    Sleep is optional Sebastian's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by shesells
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

    I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
    Irakly

    Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
    Kit

    Kit,

    Irakly has been here longer than me, and I have been around since 2000. This board only show the stats for the NEW forum, he used to be much more active. I can see where you think that he's trying to "push" his workshops, but believe me, after everything he's done here for myself an others in the past, it's MORE than fair to let him push his business as little as he has.
    -Seb

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  16. #66
    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    I'll second that!

    One may question Irakly's methods here lately, but certainly not his motives...

    He is the venerable Austin Powers from the old site, and has probably been around here longer than most of us. Between the user name and site format changes, one would never be able to grasp the true scope of his participation simply by looking at his current profile page unless you knew him from before.

    As for his workshops, trust me, the powers that be are quite happy that he promotes them on this site and wish him all the success in the world with them...
    "Riding along on a carousel...tryin' to catch up to you..."

    -Steve
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  17. #67
    Senior Member shesells's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sebastian
    Kit,

    Irakly has been here longer than me, and I have been around since 2000. This board only show the stats for the NEW forum, he used to be much more active. I can see where you think that he's trying to "push" his workshops, but believe me, after everything he's done here for myself an others in the past, it's MORE than fair to let him push his business as little as he has.
    Seb, I didn't know there was a new forum, and only went by the date on the profile. Thank you for telling me that. Beleive me, I have no problem with people offering their services to those on forums. I know that this is how it is done quite often, and accepted as ok. What I do have a problem with is judging others in a condesending way. Not only is their work judged by him as "crap" but their motives are questioned. Not too brilliant if he is trying to drum up business. If someone was good to you in the past, would you let them abuse you now? Would you go about this in the way he does? no, you wouldn't because you are a kind person not an egomaniac. I don't appreciate it.
    Kit

  18. #68
    Sleep is optional Sebastian's Avatar
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    Kit,

    I guess it's just a matter of differing viewpoints. I for one welcome someone with his experience and professional background to tell me my work is "crap" and to question my motives. I will never improve if I sit content in my mediocrity. On more than one occasion Irakly has put down my work, and he was right. It just took me a while to realize that.

    And overall I have to agree with him, this site is for the most part a sea of mediocrity. Those that rose above it have moved on to other sites where their skill and talent are pushed to even higher levels. I wish this site could have been one where their talents would have been nurtured and they would have stayed.

    Is there something wrong with the majority of work here being nothing special? No, absolutely not. As many have said, some never desire to move past that. But for those that do, this site isn't really made for them. And I think that's what he's trying to say.

    When it comes to art, there will always be someone telling you it's garbage. They are not always wrong. The best thing to do if you want to improve your art is to listen to both sides with he same gratitude and respect. It's gotten to the point that I ignore most of the good things said to me and only listen to the bad. They are usually much more honest and made with more of a desire to help me improve.

    I think for the most part those that are upset by Irakly's statements might be because they are insecure about their own work and feel attacked. I can understand that, but once you get past that and start to listen to what people like him are saying, that's when you start to open up to new levels of understanding yourself, your work, and how all those things interact.

    Is he being condescending? I don't think so. I think he's being blunt. But I know damn well how that can backfire.

    For all those offended by his posts, I say take a long hard look at yourself, take a deep breath, and rethink where you stand. Put ego and pride aside before you post. What he's saying has been said to me before, and it has been one of the best things to ever happen to me. No matter how good you think you are, no matter how good others tell you you are, you can be better. And frankly, if a majority of people are telling you your stuff is great, they either don't know any better, or they are lying to you.
    -Seb

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  19. #69
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Irakly / New Forum / Vision Gallery

    Irakly's been here since the very beginning. He originally posted under his own name, then as Austin Powers, and since we introduced the current forums, as Irakly again. His participation has waxed and waned, but through it all he's loyal to the site and I don't think he really meant to ridicule anyone. As I said before, I'm sympathetic to his message. There is photography that is different than purely illustrative. And it's that symbolic, meaning-based type of work that this discussion is really about. He and I would both like to see more work like that on the site and that's what the new forum would be for. It would be for discussing meaning in photography and other art, and not so much for discussing technique or equipment.

    And I agree that it's time to bring back the Vision Gallery. I haven't put any thought into exactly how to do it. There are a few technical issues. The new gallery is a great platform, though. I just have to figure out how to make the Vision concept work within the new gallery software.
    Photo-John

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  20. #70
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    I used a nickname Austin Powers, but on the new forum I registered with my name. There are people here who still remember it, and I met some fine idividuals like Seb, Lauren and Steve personally. Believe me, I am not trying to use you or anybody here, when I need new students I just say so. Also, when you say "use" you seem to imply that all I do is just to get paid. It is a bit unsubstantiated, don't you think?

    Quote Originally Posted by shesells
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Irakly Shanidze

    I used to post in the Critique forum a lot, but it was no use. Most people there are not really interested in improving their vision. Not everybody, I have to admit, but most.
    Irakly

    Really? under what name? I was interested in seeing your criticism those in the critique forum but when I checked your profile there is not a single post by you in critique forum. This is a shame, because you probably could help since you teach creative photography. Prove me wrong if you can, but since most of the threads started by you are about your "workshops", I think you just wanted to stir things up so people would feel that they need your classes. I honestly don't know of a single photographer that isn't interested in "improving their vision" ! Try not to use us.
    Kit


  21. #71
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    John, Seb, Steve, thanks for support. I guess, people who question my level of expertise and my motives are right in that sense that I started all this without getting folks to know me. It is my congenital restlessness that made me burst instead of bringing this art forum/gallery idea in a slow and civilized manner.

  22. #72
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    Ok everyone, I think this thread is starting to get to the Dark Side of things now and people need to step back a little and think about what is really being said here.

    Irakly (formally Austin Powers) yes has been around for many years and has in the past generated a lot of interesting replies, ideas, pushed people up the ladder of experteise etc and is again trying to do that in his own way.

    Photo-John said that this forum is going to happen, I like the idea of suspending a post for 24 hours to allow other moderators to view the post and suggest the handling of such a post. Deleating a post without consultation (except in a moderators own forum they are responsible for, which isn't done lightly) is not a good thing for a forum and edges on the side of Nazism.

    What most people have missed here, is a good idea to get Artistic imagine onbaord and an avenue to help others that might be struggling to achieve something with their own imagry that they can't resolve. I for one, would welcome a forum where I can ask someone that is a working professional exactly how to achieve something and hopefully endup with an example of how that is achieved to be able to try that myself. Not having a network like some have, I have a trial and error factor to my photography which can be disheartening at times, stiffling my own personal development.

    Irakly has made some good points and it may be seen as condesending, elieteism, what ever one wants to call it, it really is irrelevant. It is a good idea, if handled and presented correctly and should develope these forums into a better place to visit and learn and share our common interest, which is Photography.

    The amount of people that give of their time here to others without any thought of gain for themselves, really shouldn't be questioned here. Most of us give of our time and thoughts freely to others and do so willingly, I'm sure we all know who they are.

    You know, the amount of posts that are listed next to ones Username is really irrelevant, it is the quality of those posts that is never shown, which are the most important.

    Please also remember, that there are people that visit these forums from all over the world and more often than not, English might not be the first language of the person posting, and we all need to remember that. Interpretation of what one writes, how it is read, and then reinterpreted, can often not come out the way it was initially thought of in one head.

    Maybe this thread needs to be locked now and we all move on a little from it.

    I don't think there is, nor was there any intention to use anyone in these forums by anyone, except those that post 1 post and advertise there wears and often spam the forums with the same posting, which really annoys me.

  23. #73
    Senior Member shesells's Avatar
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    Seb and Photo John..

    To have the kind of site you invision means one thing. No beginners. This site is open to everyone and that means all different levels of skill and talent. Beleive me, I've had teachers in college who would not accept mediocre or even advanced work. You're right that it does spur you on to bigger and better. I'm not arguing for myself (beleive me, my work is crap and I know it lol) but for those who are trying to get a handle on the whole art thing. They are at the stage where they should be encouraged. Not lied to, but told in an encouraging way what they are doing wrong. You don't talk to people like that. Why defend someones bad behavior that hurts others? It's almost like a mother making excuses for their childs rudeness. I do understand that if someone has meant a lot to you, you overlook their faults. You also understand him better than those of us who never heard of him before his recent post. So, I'll concede to your judgement of his motives.

    Irakly: Maybe you are trying to help.. but coming out of nowhere and giving an all out judgement to a group of people about their passion isnt the way to do it. Who set you up as judge and jury? How is your opinion any better than others? I value Sebs opinion and feel that Photo John is objective, so I feel I may have judged you harshly. We'll see.

    Why not have a positive learning experience from here? Irakly, or anyone could give an assignments to the whole site, and those who want to can submit their work each week in a thread for criticism. We could then see for ourselves how we measure up to others That would stretch the minds of those participating and also of those critiqueing. It would also force us to practice techniques that we feel uncomfortable doing, like say portraiture, panning , action etc. We could use a number system for grading how each person accomplished the assignment. Whoever wins can give the assignment for the next week. Just a suggestion.

    I personally love it here. Thank you for offering it to me and everyone else. Anything that is done for improvement I'm all for.
    Kit

  24. #74
    Moderator Irakly Shanidze's Avatar
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    Kit, you are mistaken. I really hope that the new forum will be as comfortable for beginnners as for experienced photographers. The key idea here is that there are different types of beginners: those who have artistic vision, and those who need it developed. There is the third type, though: people who do not need an artistic vision, but they by default will not be interested in the Art Forum. They will gradually develop skills that will make their photography more... let's say... predictable in terms of obtainability of desired results, but its artistic value will not improve. I am not saying that they are bad people, all I am saying is that I am not interested in seeing their photographic work, that's all.
    I am trying to help, and I will put in the new forum as much energy as I was putting it the old one, and I truly hope that it will help many people discover something that they have never thought of about photography.
    Irakly

    Quote Originally Posted by shesells
    To have the kind of site you invision means one thing. No beginners. This site is open to everyone and that means all different levels of skill and talent. Beleive me, I've had teachers in college who would not accept mediocre or even advanced work. You're right that it does spur you on to bigger and better. I'm not arguing for myself (beleive me, my work is crap and I know it lol) but for those who are trying to get a handle on the whole art thing. They are at the stage where they should be encouraged. Not lied to, but told in an encouraging way what they are doing wrong. You don't talk to people like that. Why defend someones bad behavior that hurts others? It's almost like a mother making excuses for their childs rudeness. I do understand that if someone has meant a lot to you, you overlook their faults. You also understand him better than those of us who never heard of him before his recent post. So, I'll concede to your judgement of his motives.

    Irakly: Maybe you are trying to help.. but coming out of nowhere and giving an all out judgement to a group of people about their passion isnt the way to do it. Who set you up as judge and jury? How is your opinion any better than others? I value Sebs opinion and feel that Photo John is objective, so I feel I may have judged you harshly. We'll see.

    Why not have a positive learning experience from here? Irakly, or anyone could give an assignments to the whole site, and those who want to can submit their work each week in a thread for criticism. We could then see for ourselves how we measure up to others That would stretch the minds of those participating and also of those critiqueing. It would also force us to practice techniques that we feel uncomfortable doing, like say portraiture, panning , action etc. We could use a number system for grading how each person accomplished the assignment. Whoever wins can give the assignment for the next week. Just a suggestion.

    I personally love it here. Thank you for offering it to me and everyone else. Anything that is done for improvement I'm all for.
    Kit

  25. #75
    Sleep is optional Sebastian's Avatar
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    Kit,

    Really believe that the site we envision WILL allow for beginners. As Irakly stated above, there are many different types of beginners, we cater to only a few of those types, and the others leave. We would like to make it so different areas of the site encourage different people at different levels.

    Look at the studio and lighting forum. It doesn't get much use but it's a great resource, and every now and then it is added to by people from all levels of skill and experience. It didn't take away from anything, neither did the digital forums, or the video forums, they all add to make it easier for people to find exactly what they are looking for. And that is how I envision the new "Art" forum, whatever shape it may take.

    Believe me, PJ will never let this site change from the fundamental community that it is, his desire is only to add to it to help those in the community grow without having to search out other places.
    -Seb

    My website

    (Please don't edit and repost my images without my permission. Thank you)

    How to tell the most experienced shooter in a group? They have the least amount of toys on them.

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