Photography. Art or Crap?

[walterick]

You caught me, arguing for the "experience" of art and not the "topic." I'm scared to death of the "topic" of art as I see it as leading to debates, not creativity. So I'll leave that alone.

However! The experience of art is what I'm looking forward to discussing! I feel we can really learn a thing or two from one another by sharing our experiences. Though usually discussions on the "topic" of something or other just lead to more arguments Not my cup of tea.

So if we can sneak a few discussions about our "experiences" of art in to that new forum, I'll be a happy guy

I guess we'll see what unfolds...

Rick

[ginsberg]

I read a good many of the responses but had to quit as I'm out of aspirin. This certainly has generated a lot of heat. I'm not sure how much light.

I suggest that the debate can be carried on more objectively if the word "art" is not used. Weegee just took pictures. He had a camera and a police radio under his bed and went to scenes of mayhem. He had no idea he was an artist. Atget made photographs to sell to architects and was not "discovered" until a few days before he died. So, taking artistic photographs has little or nothing to do with the realization of taking artistic photographs.

As far as the audio analogy, I suggest another one. People who play golf or tennis on weekends would consider themselves hobbyists. I doubt if many have professional aspirations. Yet, many take lessons to improve their game. Its simply part of the fun. If a photographer sees a scene that he or she wants to capture, why not know what the options are?

Cheers,

Ed

[Asylum Steve]

Welcome to the site, Edward. You make some interesting observations. I disagree with you, but that's the whole point of talking about it, right?

What you suggest is a bit of a "head in the sand" logic. By removing the term ART from the equation, we are in effect broading the definition so wide that it will include EVERYTHING in the universe of visual creation.

And why yes, you can argue the case that that is indeed true, if we make it the blanket basis for a forum or for discussions, things would be so watered down that I think it would be pretty boring.

Almost like "I'm ok, you're ok..." or "everyone's an artist" type of thing...

Don't get me wrong. I find "unintentional" art as dynamic and exciting as the next guy. I also realize that it's often just the cultural (and commercial!) climate at the time that legitimizes certain artists and excludes others just as deserving.

Still, the examples you site are rare exceptions to the overwhelming amount of work that was and is created with an artist purpose in mind. To me, not acknowledging and celebrating the artistic aspects of someone's work until after they're dead is incredibly sad...

So, if we are to do that, I think somewhere along the way we're gonna have to use the dreaded "A" word...

Thanks for adding your views on this. I look forward to many more discussions in the new forum!

[Asylum Steve]

GP,

You really didn't do that poor a job at making your point, it's just that (as Irakly mentioned) your anology is a bit flawed.

As he points out, there are many artists that don't give a hoot at all about photographic technology. In fact, much conceptual photo art is as "anti-tech" as you can possibly get.

I think the comparison to audiophiles would better used for that group of shooters that is absolutely equipment obsessed, yet care LITTLE about the content of their work. I know I'm generalizing, but my experience has been that folks obsessed with audio equipment care less about MUSIC, and more about how it sounds. Make sense?

Yes, I realize I'm digressing. The point is I think I know what you're trying to say. One of the great things about photography is that you can truely enjoy it WITHOUT dwelling on the art aspect...

[Trevor Ash]

If ever there were a discussion which removed the plastic wrap from the many types of people in the world this one would be it.

Ironically, this is the first thread on this site that I haven't felt I could be openly honest without be flamed (and being a flame).

It's just as bad as religion and politics at this point (for me)

I'm reverting back to me position of "it's not worth arguing".

Sorry to disappoint you all.

[Liz]

It's great to see you around again. I just wanted to point out that I understood what you were saying the first time around. ;)

Actually, I couldn't figure out the response to be honest. I didn't interpret what you said as comparing art & audio - for what it's worth. :-) And I agree with the points you made.

Just an aside. There is a painting called "White on White" that is worth a lot of money. The "artist" simply painted a white canvas white. Personally, I wouldn't call it art - wouldn't even call it creative. I'm sure people here will disagree, but that's my opinion. However, somebody called it art and hung it in a museum.

Have a great week.

Liz

The point I was trying to make (and obviously did not do very well) is that these are just two of several hobbies I have. What I was trying to compare when I mentioned the reference to Audio was the obsession that everything has to be perfect to be able to enjoy it, not the getting caught up in all the bells and whistles part. I enjoy all of my hobbies very much and try to do my best in each. Because none of them has reached an art form in no way diminishes my enjoyment of each of them.

I applaud people that seek perfection in anything, that's great! Some of my other hobbies are Archery, woodworking and being a grandpaw. I have not advanced far enough to be on the Archery United States Olympic team and I do not have any furniture pictured in a Fine Woodworking magazine. And no I haven't been voted Grandfather of the Year by any organization but I can tell you one thing, when my kids and grandkids say that's a great picture or show off something like a desk, bed or toy box I have made for them, not being called an Artist doesn't make me any less proud of what I have done.

Again I will say I admire people that seek perfection at anything. The point I am hopefully getting across this time is I can have fun and enjoy myself without reaching the highest level in each hobby. I do try and do my best and improve each time I do something and for me that's what makes me happy.

By the way Trevor, I own two Nikon F's with FTN meters on them. Bought my fisrt one in 1970.

[ginsberg]

Sometime in the 1930's Edward Weston was awarded a Guggenheim for his work as a photographer. Since then I don't think there has been any serious debate about whether photography is an art. Many of the most important museums in the world have collections/exhibit photographic works. These include the Museum of Modern Art and the Metropolitan Museum. The Museum of Modern Art and the Bibliteque National (Paris), are among countless world class establishments that have photo curators on their staffs. The world's leading art schools teach photography and award bachelor of fine arts degrees in the subject (BFA's). Numerous books of photography are printed by leading art establishments. There are many international art exhibits that have prestige and expensive prizes that are geared to, or include, photography. Some of the leading universities offer courses in the aesthetics of photography (search Google for photography, aesthetics and you will find course outlines for some of them).

Finally, there are a lot of artists, good, bad, and mediocre, who are accepted as artists in their lifetimes and who make a lot of money.

[adina]

GP,

You really didn't do that poor a job at making your point, it's just that (as Irakly mentioned) your anology is a bit flawed.

As he points out, there are many artists that don't give a hoot at all about photographic technology. In fact, much conceptual photo art is as "anti-tech" as you can possibly get.

I think the comparison to audiophiles would better used for that group of shooters that is absolutely equipment obsessed, yet care LITTLE about the content of their work. I know I'm generalizing, but my experience has been that folks obsessed with audio equipment care less about MUSIC, and more about how it sounds. Make sense?

Yes, I realize I'm digressing. The point is I think I know what you're trying to say. One of the great things about photography is that you can truely enjoy it WITHOUT dwelling on the art aspect...

My dad spends lots of money on his stereo stuff and still listens to records

[Asylum Steve]

Of course I've always seen him more as "comic relief" than anything else, but he's definitely fun to watch...

[Lara]

Of course I've always seen him more as "comic relief" than anything else, but he's definitely fun to watch...

Hey! He was serious. He painted a LOT of "happy little trees"

[Liz]

"It's just as bad as religion and politics at this point (for me)"

"Ironically, this is the first thread on this site that I haven't felt I could be openly honest without be flamed (and being a flame). "

Because VF has always been a place where people can express their opinions without being shot down, I'd like to express my humble opinion.

As I see it, when someone makes a statement or expresses an opinion, it is not a matter of right or wrong. They have a right to express themselves. When the person replying makes a point of bluntly telling him/her they are "wrong" - this is purely for the sake of argument IMHO. That reply is also an opinion. It's like saying "your opinion is wrong. Mine is right."

"Things they are a changin' as the song goes." Change is good. Sometimes. I just don't like it when people feel they have to defend everything they say. Sorry if this offends anyone.

Liz

[Asylum Steve]

... or I should say MADE you an excellent moderator. You are always a voice of reason, tolerence, and sensitivity. That's what makes you a trusted friend to many on this site.

I agree with both of you that this new venture has the potential for some heated debate, so much so that if some of these discussions were posted in Viewfinder on a regular basis, it could well make a lot of the regulars uncomfortable.

But alas, we are talking about a completely seperate forum to contain any controversy, and like any of the other "specialty" forums that already exist here, folks are free to either participate or not.

I doubt very much any of the heavier stuff will spill over to Viewfinder...

I also wanted to let you know that John has agreed to let me co-moderate the new forum with Irakly, and as such I can assure you (and everyone) that we are going to hold all posters to the same standards as the rest of the site, and will certainly not tolerate any abusive behavior.

As for the "argument for the sake of argument" theory, I have to plead guilty, but then again, I see nothing wrong with that.

I grew up in New York and lived a large part of my life in South Florida, two of the most combative metropolitan areas on the planet. Guess I'm just used to it.

I've also lived half my life as a professional artist in commercial and fine art communities, and to me this no different that arguing about sports, and boy I don't think I've gone more than a day in my life without arguing about sports...

To me, it's as natural as breathing...

The difference from what you object to is that we will make sure the discussions goes, "I disagree because", or "I THINK you are wrong because". That's quite another thing from telling someone their opinion is not valid...

The reason I think it's important for us to express strong views on these topics (and defend them vigorously) is that many people HAVE YET to form an opinion on much of this.

Some, if not most of us are searching for answers, clues and keys to our own journies as artists, and being made aware of what's out there and what others think and why can open our eyes to ideas and views we've never considered before.

It is also capable of focusing a bunch of scrambled thoughts into a cohesive ideology, as we naturally sift through what we agree with and what we don't. This can make all the difference in how someone goes about their life and how they decide to use their photography as a creative instrument.

Besides, this forum will be much more than just debating the meaning of art. I promise it will include topics much more practical and technical, serving partly as a Q&A, partly as a place to share the things you love about photography, partly as a career guide for members of all skill levels.

I think a lot of you keep overlooking these other aspects. As much fun as arguing can be sometimes, if it goes on for too long it's just pointless, not to mention exausting...

Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but I believe regardless of if something is art or crap, everyone is entitled to their opinion without being told they are wrong.

Just my opinion - for what it's worth - or not worth. ;)

Liz

[Liz]

Steve,
I do appreciate the clarification and further discussion/explanation regarding the goals, etc. of the new forum. I understand a bit more now. Of all the posts I've read here - and I did read them all I was able to glean more from your post than any of the previous ones. I appreciate the time you took to explain further - and your patience.

Because of the fact that the new forum will be quite unique, it almost includes a "learning curve" - at least for me. It will be interesting to see what evolves. Sometimes we get set in our ways......and that can lead to getting into a rut - and worse - not being open to new things. Heaven forbid!

I think it will be challenging - and you can deal with that better than I ever could hope to. You do have the background and experience to be able to take on the best - or worst!

Congratulations on being the new co-moderator on the new forum. I know you'll enjoy it - that's obvious by all of your enthusiasm here.

Thanks again.

Liz

... or I should say MADE you an excellent moderator. You are always a voice of reason, tolerence, and sensitivity. That's what makes you a trusted friend to many on this site.

I agree with both of you that this new venture has the potential for some heated debate, so much so that if some of these discussions were posted in Viewfinder on a regular basis, it could well make a lot of the regulars uncomfortable.

But alas, we are talking about a completely seperate forum to contain any controversy, and like any of the other "specialty" forums that already exist here, folks are free to either participate or not.

I doubt very much any of the heavier stuff will spill over to Viewfinder...

I also wanted to let you know that John has agreed to let me co-moderate the new forum with Irakly, and as such I can assure you (and everyone) that we are going to hold all posters to the same standards as the rest of the site, and will certainly not tolerate any abusive behavior.

As for the "argument for the sake of argument" theory, I have to plead guilty, but then again, I see nothing wrong with that.

I grew up in New York and lived a large part of my life in South Florida, two of the most combative metropolitan areas on the planet. Guess I'm just used to it.

I've also lived half my life as a professional artist in commercial and fine art communities, and to me this no different that arguing about sports, and boy I don't think I've gone more than a day in my life without arguing about sports...

To me, it's as natural as breathing...

The difference from what you object to is that we will make sure the discussions goes, "I disagree because", or "I THINK you are wrong because". That's quite another thing from telling someone their opinion is not valid...

The reason I think it's important for us to express strong views on these topics (and defend them vigorously) is that many people HAVE YET to form an opinion on much of this.

Some, if not most of us are searching for answers, clues and keys to our own journies as artists, and being made aware of what's out there and what others think and why can open our eyes to ideas and views we've never considered before.

It is also capable of focusing a bunch of scrambled thoughts into a cohesive ideology, as we naturally sift through what we agree with and what we don't. This can make all the difference in how someone goes about their life and how they decide to use their photography as a creative instrument.

Besides, this forum will be much more than just debating the meaning of art. I promise it will include topics much more practical and technical, serving partly as a Q&A, partly as a place to share the things you love about photography, partly as a career guide for members of all skill levels.

I think a lot of you keep overlooking these other aspects. As much fun as arguing can be sometimes, if it goes on for too long it's just pointless, not to mention exausting...

[Peter_AUS]

You know, I wonder how many paintings from the "Old Masters" there would actually be today, if Photography was actually around in their days too and they could take the image of the person/landscape/what ever instead of having to put it on Canvas.

Would we still be calling it "ART". What makes a good piece of ART. Someone saying it is ? Someone paying a gazillion $$$$$'s for it ? The painter has died and everyone feels it is time to immortalize them ?

I have a small collection of Art Works that I have purchased over the years, about 6 oils and maybe 12 water colours. I paid not a lot of money compared to the Old Masters paintings, but enough according to my income, which was a lot at the time, and still isn't.

Why did I buy those particular paintings ? Because I like the look of them, and I wanted them.

I think Photography is a bit like that too. People see a print and they like it and want it. It is the "Art" of getting that print, which I think we should all really be spending our time on tryin to achieve.

Well that is what I think anyway.

[Grandpaw]

see your still active as always. I'm glad someone understood what I was trying to say besides me. I just don't have to bring everything I do to a artistic level to enjoy doing it and that was the point I was trying to make. I prefer to enjoy many hobbies as best I can rather than concentrate my time on perfecting one.

Liz, have a great day and I hope all is going very well for you, Jeff

[Elysian]

Ok, 12 days later still no forum, still waiting for a discussion in this thread that leads to better photographs, I sent some suggestions for our board to John days ago and still no answer. Things have never been so slow around here

[Lara]

Patience, it's coming. You can quote me on it.

[Irakly Shanidze]

Dear boys and girls! Now it's official! We have the ART FORUM!!!