Photography. Art or Crap?

[Toot]

Why do we do anything creative. It is an expression of what we feel, see, touch, smell, etc. It is an expression of self. A way to show something that is within us. Some have 20/20 vision and can bring that through, while others want to express themselves, but never have been taught or shown how to do that properly. IMO I think it would be good to have two versions of critique. Or whatever you want to call it. One for the beginners who need a place to start and the do's and don't of the basics...with direction. Learning how to use a camera and equipment, to achieve the different effects, and their accomplishments. The other for the more serious person who wants to stretch that creativity to take it to a higher more professional level. More the perfectionist view.
Speaking for myself, I really never knew anything about a camera until I started visiting this site, and listening to what everyone was saying. It helped me to understand better what I was doing and looking at. I still shoot crap, but under the right conditions...it looks pretty good. It is intimidating as a beginner to post something for critique and guidance, when you have other posts in there that are way above that level.
To me ART is something created. Whether is be constructed or waiting for the perfect lighting conditions. Who knows....mainly it's in the eyes of the beholder. It will never satisfy everyone at the same time. If it stirs something inside of us or another, then we have achieved something.
Just my two cents.

[Elysian]

One week later... still nothing... I wonder if we'll ever get this forum

[opus]

One week later... still nothing... I wonder if we'll ever get this forum

I've got an image just waiting to post there.

[natatbeach]

especially the way he talked to his little clouds (tooo tooo too totootot) ....just kidding

sort of...I didi like he talked to clouds...

[Asylum Steve]

Of course I've always seen him more as "comic relief" than anything else, but he's definitely fun to watch...

[Lara]

Of course I've always seen him more as "comic relief" than anything else, but he's definitely fun to watch...

Hey! He was serious. He painted a LOT of "happy little trees"

[Lava Lamp]

Lotta response here. I'm not too fond of people calling themselves artists, but all in all Irakly would seem to qualify. Have you looked at his work? Also, I seem to have read some bio stuff from him suggeting that he and his friends suffered some real consequences (i.e., prison) in pursuit of their art while under communist rule. Again, that gives him credibility.

Now that doesn't mean I like it when he says my dog/flower/kid/sunset photo is crap and I would argue that just 'cause his photos have nekked women, it doesn't make them art. But he's never said that - at least I didn't notice. (The truth is, his dog/flower/kid/sunset stuff would be better than mine if he shot that.)

What's wrong with someone who can walk the walk challenging us to raise the bar? (if I mix cliches.)

[adina]

Not saying that I have any "art", but I'd be thrilled to see other peoples. And I'm very interested in seeing what other people think qualifies as art. And if this new forum would encourage those who are more advanced to post more images, and participate in discussions about them, I think those of us who are not so advanced could really benefit from it, if we choose to.

adina

[ginsberg]

I read a good many of the responses but had to quit as I'm out of aspirin. This certainly has generated a lot of heat. I'm not sure how much light.

I suggest that the debate can be carried on more objectively if the word "art" is not used. Weegee just took pictures. He had a camera and a police radio under his bed and went to scenes of mayhem. He had no idea he was an artist. Atget made photographs to sell to architects and was not "discovered" until a few days before he died. So, taking artistic photographs has little or nothing to do with the realization of taking artistic photographs.

As far as the audio analogy, I suggest another one. People who play golf or tennis on weekends would consider themselves hobbyists. I doubt if many have professional aspirations. Yet, many take lessons to improve their game. Its simply part of the fun. If a photographer sees a scene that he or she wants to capture, why not know what the options are?

Cheers,

Ed

[Asylum Steve]

Welcome to the site, Edward. You make some interesting observations. I disagree with you, but that's the whole point of talking about it, right?

What you suggest is a bit of a "head in the sand" logic. By removing the term ART from the equation, we are in effect broading the definition so wide that it will include EVERYTHING in the universe of visual creation.

And why yes, you can argue the case that that is indeed true, if we make it the blanket basis for a forum or for discussions, things would be so watered down that I think it would be pretty boring.

Almost like "I'm ok, you're ok..." or "everyone's an artist" type of thing...

Don't get me wrong. I find "unintentional" art as dynamic and exciting as the next guy. I also realize that it's often just the cultural (and commercial!) climate at the time that legitimizes certain artists and excludes others just as deserving.

Still, the examples you site are rare exceptions to the overwhelming amount of work that was and is created with an artist purpose in mind. To me, not acknowledging and celebrating the artistic aspects of someone's work until after they're dead is incredibly sad...

So, if we are to do that, I think somewhere along the way we're gonna have to use the dreaded "A" word...

Thanks for adding your views on this. I look forward to many more discussions in the new forum!

[ginsberg]

Sometime in the 1930's Edward Weston was awarded a Guggenheim for his work as a photographer. Since then I don't think there has been any serious debate about whether photography is an art. Many of the most important museums in the world have collections/exhibit photographic works. These include the Museum of Modern Art and the Metropolitan Museum. The Museum of Modern Art and the Bibliteque National (Paris), are among countless world class establishments that have photo curators on their staffs. The world's leading art schools teach photography and award bachelor of fine arts degrees in the subject (BFA's). Numerous books of photography are printed by leading art establishments. There are many international art exhibits that have prestige and expensive prizes that are geared to, or include, photography. Some of the leading universities offer courses in the aesthetics of photography (search Google for photography, aesthetics and you will find course outlines for some of them).

Finally, there are a lot of artists, good, bad, and mediocre, who are accepted as artists in their lifetimes and who make a lot of money.

[Trevor Ash]

If ever there were a discussion which removed the plastic wrap from the many types of people in the world this one would be it.

Ironically, this is the first thread on this site that I haven't felt I could be openly honest without be flamed (and being a flame).

It's just as bad as religion and politics at this point (for me)

I'm reverting back to me position of "it's not worth arguing".

Sorry to disappoint you all.

[Liz]

"It's just as bad as religion and politics at this point (for me)"

"Ironically, this is the first thread on this site that I haven't felt I could be openly honest without be flamed (and being a flame). "

Because VF has always been a place where people can express their opinions without being shot down, I'd like to express my humble opinion.

As I see it, when someone makes a statement or expresses an opinion, it is not a matter of right or wrong. They have a right to express themselves. When the person replying makes a point of bluntly telling him/her they are "wrong" - this is purely for the sake of argument IMHO. That reply is also an opinion. It's like saying "your opinion is wrong. Mine is right."

"Things they are a changin' as the song goes." Change is good. Sometimes. I just don't like it when people feel they have to defend everything they say. Sorry if this offends anyone.

Liz

[Asylum Steve]

... or I should say MADE you an excellent moderator. You are always a voice of reason, tolerence, and sensitivity. That's what makes you a trusted friend to many on this site.

I agree with both of you that this new venture has the potential for some heated debate, so much so that if some of these discussions were posted in Viewfinder on a regular basis, it could well make a lot of the regulars uncomfortable.

But alas, we are talking about a completely seperate forum to contain any controversy, and like any of the other "specialty" forums that already exist here, folks are free to either participate or not.

I doubt very much any of the heavier stuff will spill over to Viewfinder...

I also wanted to let you know that John has agreed to let me co-moderate the new forum with Irakly, and as such I can assure you (and everyone) that we are going to hold all posters to the same standards as the rest of the site, and will certainly not tolerate any abusive behavior.

As for the "argument for the sake of argument" theory, I have to plead guilty, but then again, I see nothing wrong with that.

I grew up in New York and lived a large part of my life in South Florida, two of the most combative metropolitan areas on the planet. Guess I'm just used to it.

I've also lived half my life as a professional artist in commercial and fine art communities, and to me this no different that arguing about sports, and boy I don't think I've gone more than a day in my life without arguing about sports...

To me, it's as natural as breathing...

The difference from what you object to is that we will make sure the discussions goes, "I disagree because", or "I THINK you are wrong because". That's quite another thing from telling someone their opinion is not valid...

The reason I think it's important for us to express strong views on these topics (and defend them vigorously) is that many people HAVE YET to form an opinion on much of this.

Some, if not most of us are searching for answers, clues and keys to our own journies as artists, and being made aware of what's out there and what others think and why can open our eyes to ideas and views we've never considered before.

It is also capable of focusing a bunch of scrambled thoughts into a cohesive ideology, as we naturally sift through what we agree with and what we don't. This can make all the difference in how someone goes about their life and how they decide to use their photography as a creative instrument.

Besides, this forum will be much more than just debating the meaning of art. I promise it will include topics much more practical and technical, serving partly as a Q&A, partly as a place to share the things you love about photography, partly as a career guide for members of all skill levels.

I think a lot of you keep overlooking these other aspects. As much fun as arguing can be sometimes, if it goes on for too long it's just pointless, not to mention exausting...

Sorry if I'm offending anyone, but I believe regardless of if something is art or crap, everyone is entitled to their opinion without being told they are wrong.

Just my opinion - for what it's worth - or not worth. ;)

Liz

[Liz]

Steve,
I do appreciate the clarification and further discussion/explanation regarding the goals, etc. of the new forum. I understand a bit more now. Of all the posts I've read here - and I did read them all I was able to glean more from your post than any of the previous ones. I appreciate the time you took to explain further - and your patience.

Because of the fact that the new forum will be quite unique, it almost includes a "learning curve" - at least for me. It will be interesting to see what evolves. Sometimes we get set in our ways......and that can lead to getting into a rut - and worse - not being open to new things. Heaven forbid!

I think it will be challenging - and you can deal with that better than I ever could hope to. You do have the background and experience to be able to take on the best - or worst!

Congratulations on being the new co-moderator on the new forum. I know you'll enjoy it - that's obvious by all of your enthusiasm here.

Thanks again.

Liz

... or I should say MADE you an excellent moderator. You are always a voice of reason, tolerence, and sensitivity. That's what makes you a trusted friend to many on this site.

I agree with both of you that this new venture has the potential for some heated debate, so much so that if some of these discussions were posted in Viewfinder on a regular basis, it could well make a lot of the regulars uncomfortable.

But alas, we are talking about a completely seperate forum to contain any controversy, and like any of the other "specialty" forums that already exist here, folks are free to either participate or not.

I doubt very much any of the heavier stuff will spill over to Viewfinder...

I also wanted to let you know that John has agreed to let me co-moderate the new forum with Irakly, and as such I can assure you (and everyone) that we are going to hold all posters to the same standards as the rest of the site, and will certainly not tolerate any abusive behavior.

As for the "argument for the sake of argument" theory, I have to plead guilty, but then again, I see nothing wrong with that.

I grew up in New York and lived a large part of my life in South Florida, two of the most combative metropolitan areas on the planet. Guess I'm just used to it.

I've also lived half my life as a professional artist in commercial and fine art communities, and to me this no different that arguing about sports, and boy I don't think I've gone more than a day in my life without arguing about sports...

To me, it's as natural as breathing...

The difference from what you object to is that we will make sure the discussions goes, "I disagree because", or "I THINK you are wrong because". That's quite another thing from telling someone their opinion is not valid...

The reason I think it's important for us to express strong views on these topics (and defend them vigorously) is that many people HAVE YET to form an opinion on much of this.

Some, if not most of us are searching for answers, clues and keys to our own journies as artists, and being made aware of what's out there and what others think and why can open our eyes to ideas and views we've never considered before.

It is also capable of focusing a bunch of scrambled thoughts into a cohesive ideology, as we naturally sift through what we agree with and what we don't. This can make all the difference in how someone goes about their life and how they decide to use their photography as a creative instrument.

Besides, this forum will be much more than just debating the meaning of art. I promise it will include topics much more practical and technical, serving partly as a Q&A, partly as a place to share the things you love about photography, partly as a career guide for members of all skill levels.

I think a lot of you keep overlooking these other aspects. As much fun as arguing can be sometimes, if it goes on for too long it's just pointless, not to mention exausting...

[Peter_AUS]

You know, I wonder how many paintings from the "Old Masters" there would actually be today, if Photography was actually around in their days too and they could take the image of the person/landscape/what ever instead of having to put it on Canvas.

Would we still be calling it "ART". What makes a good piece of ART. Someone saying it is ? Someone paying a gazillion $$$$$'s for it ? The painter has died and everyone feels it is time to immortalize them ?

I have a small collection of Art Works that I have purchased over the years, about 6 oils and maybe 12 water colours. I paid not a lot of money compared to the Old Masters paintings, but enough according to my income, which was a lot at the time, and still isn't.

Why did I buy those particular paintings ? Because I like the look of them, and I wanted them.

I think Photography is a bit like that too. People see a print and they like it and want it. It is the "Art" of getting that print, which I think we should all really be spending our time on tryin to achieve.

Well that is what I think anyway.

[natatbeach]

I mean art (a.k.a crap) to post for slaughtering --- I mean discussion---so when will we get this new forum up and running...so I can lose what little photographic self esteem I have----I mean so I can learn more about my vision)

seriously...I'm ready...on your mark get set....where do we go...? ;)

[Trevor Ash]

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

[opus]

Ha Ha, Trevor, at first I thought you said "emoticons".

[Lara]

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

Soon Trevor. John is getting things put together to open up the forum.

Nat. Be ready. I believe the forum will in the same section as all of the forums here.

[Irakly Shanidze]

Trevor, I strongly believe that we will have it next Monday.

Wow, wow, wow ,wow. Emotions galore in this thread! When is this new forum coming into play? I'd love to visit it and read the discussions.

[Janie]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

[opus]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

Excellent points, Janie!

[Outdoorsman]

I used to think about this, but since i've been doing a lot of fine art photography, I discovered that there are so many techniques you learn and you need to be super creative as well! You can get heavily involved digitally manipulating the photograph to create digital art. You can stand over a photocopier and photograph yourself like some sort of maniac like I did and create an art piece from that as well. I believe that art comes in many shapes and forms. For the longest time I could draw an eye better than I could shoot it! Took me a long time to master the technique of shooting myself in the eye! lol :-D I became bored with the same ol same ol photography - but then decided that if you shoot it in a different way, it becomes new! So I think the art form version of photography is shooting in your very own unique style. You must OWN YOUR STYLE! CREATE A TRADEMARK!

I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

[Trevor Ash]

I quoted a photographer/biology professor friend of mine in a recent post: "...everybody's got a camera. Everything out there to be photographed has been photographed. You have to have a unique vision, then develop a technique to express that." I think that sums it up pretty well.

Sure, but does that make you an artist or just a better photographer?