What is a Christian?

[christiansoldier]

Ugh, you guys are so stuck behind the illusion of everything, stuck throwing people into label camps. Can't I just be a person, a human being, an individual? One who happens to like the various religious teachings? Why do you have to throw me in a bucket just to stereotype and generalize me?

Hold on there, bucky. You labeled yourself. Buddhist/Christian.

Did anyone drag you, kicking and screaming into this discussion? Not that you aren't welcome, but don't go all huffy and ad hominem on us, OK?

Pax, dude. Take a deep breath.

Try this mantra:

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

Not feeling better...a little faster

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

:thumbsup:

[Anbesol]

Oh what to do!? Oh please show me your way! I cling to my precious life, my life I am scared of losing, oh please show me your holy better-than-everybody-else ways! Oh no! Death is a shadow hanging over me! What to do? Oh I know! I'll cling to some silly false idea, I'm so attached to earthly life that I have to fool myself into believing it will go on forever and ever, thoughtlessly, carelessly. Oh, Javier - please show me your better-than-everybody-else ways!

Arrogant brat, fortunately for civilization you nut-jobs are a dying breed.

[Solo]

This is a thread regarding christianity, and you can't argue true christianity with science. They don't mix.

True Christianity and True Science align together in Truth. There are no inconsistancies or contradictions between the two. The only contradictions between the two are untruths concerning on or the other based on a lack of truthful observation and truthful interpretation.

[christiansoldier]

Oh what to do!? Oh please show me your way! I cling to my precious life, my life I am scared of losing, oh please show me your holy better-than-everybody-else ways! Oh no! Death is a shadow hanging over me! What to do? Oh I know! I'll cling to some silly false idea, I'm so attached to earthly life that I have to fool myself into believing it will go on forever and ever, thoughtlessly, carelessly. Oh, Javier - please show me your better-than-everybody-else ways!

Arrogant brat, fortunately for civilization you nut-jobs are a dying breed.

:17: :23: :14: :10: :8:

It's got a beat...but I can't really dance to it.

I'll give it a 4.

:yikes:

[Anbesol]

As far as I can tell, Javier was addressing you, not Buddha.

Nanak? Is that the Eskimo dude? Nanak of the North? Nagarjuna...some kind of herb, am I right??

oh boy, what wit!

He put every single buddhist into a jar, and said 'see, look at all these people, they are satanists, and I am better than every single one of them'.

Why dont you guys try being just a little bit thoughtful, I know you might have to step outside of 'better-then-everybody' fantasy land, but it might end up being good for you in the long run.

[Anbesol]

Hold on there, bucky. You labeled yourself. Buddhist/Christian.

Did anyone drag you, kicking and screaming into this discussion? Not that you aren't welcome, but don't go all huffy and ad hominem on us, OK?

Pax, dude. Take a deep breath.

Try this mantra:

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

Not feeling better...a little faster

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

:thumbsup:

I got pissed because my patience ran thin as a couple of high-and-mighty morons started insulting a following of more than a billion people. Your patronizing me is a provocation as well. Get real.

[Solo]

Hey Solo,
Welcome to PR. I hope your stay is pleasant.
javier

Thanks for the welcome.

[christiansoldier]

oh boy, what wit!

He put every single buddhist into a jar, and said 'see, look at all these people, they are satanists, and I am better than every single one of them'.

Why dont you guys try being just a little bit thoughtful, I know you might have to step outside of 'better-then-everybody' fantasy land, but it might end up being good for you in the long run.

I know Javier a bit better than you do, my excitable friend, and one thing I know for sure is, he doesn't consider himself better than you or any other person, regardless of their beliefs.

He is merely trying to get the point across to whoever will open up enough to listen that there is a Creator, there is heaven/hell, man is a fallen creature unable to change without the atonement of Christ, no matter how good you are or how good the prophets you follow are, there is but one way to avoid that 4-letter word HELL that is oh so distasteful to an apostate, politically correct world.

Again, you don't have to believe that...a lot of folks won't...but as followers of Christ, we have personal ministries to take the Word of God to folks who have no yet heeded it...for surely most of the folks we encounter will HAVE heard it, but have not yet taken it to heart.

I'd like nothing better than to call you a Brother in Christ, my friend, not for my sake, my enrichment, my betterment, but for yours and all to the GLORY OF GOD!

[christiansoldier]

Thanks for the welcome.

Hey, count me in to, Solo.

Welcome!

[Solo]

Hey, count me in to, Solo.

Welcome!

Thanks for the Welcome, also!

[christiansoldier]

I got pissed because my patience ran thin as a couple of high-and-mighty morons started insulting a following of more than a billion people. Your patronizing me is a provocation as well. Get real.

No one can provoke a person of self-control and discipline.

I am real.

Does Buddhism prohibit humor?

Seriously, though, a billion lost souls is sad, sad, sad.

[christiansoldier]

Time for me to scoot. Just a few hours til a new work day. Yikes!

Y'all try to keep the shiny side up and the dirty side down, OK?

Love knows no bounds.

Pax and out.

[Skyman]

the other thread was locked because people were making thier comments to and about the poster, instead of the posts.

please keep that in mind as this thread progesses....

I am not a moderator for the off topic, but I think people need reminding. and perspective.

It is not acceptable to use personally attacking language as has been explained elsewhere in the off topic forums.

The original question was what is a christian. people have stated their opinions on this matter and others have stated alternate opinions.

we seem to have wandered off topic in the process and started using language that has been perceived to be attacking. I cannot claim innocence in this process, but as with all of you I am proud to be a member of photographyreview.com most other sites would have canned this thread before it even started. It is a credit the members here that we can have discussion on such emotionally charged topics in a sensible way. Can I suggest that we try to bring it back on topic.

[Anbesol]

You know what, I just don't have the patience for this discussion, I feel probably something like Neitzche felt as he watched a horse get brutally beaten. Sorry for getting in the mud guys, I'm done with this thread.

For the record, the self-proclaimed holy trinity Heluvs, soldier, and Javier have been throwing out personal attacks since page 1 of this thread. They can mask it as theology all they want.

[Didache]

As some attempt to keep this thread on topic I thought it might be helpful to recognise some of the differences between Christians of a fundamentalist/conservative and those of a more moderate persuasion. I recognise that such a short summary as that which follows is at risk of caricaturing views - hopefully I will keep that to a minimum. Also, few of us fit neatly into one camp or another in all respects. I am doing this as much for my own benefit as for anyone else. Even so ...

Fundamentalist/Conservative Evangelicals: this particular corner of the vineyard is especially well represented in the US, but also world-wide in denominations such as conservative non-denominational, some baptist conventions, free evangelicals, etc, etc. People in this camp will have a very Bible based faith, and will almost always regard the Bible as being literally true (apart from obvious exceptions such as parables and poetic images). Indeed, biblical literalism/inerrantism would be a central clause in a fundamentalist creed were they to devise one. Having a bible based faith, they will tend to regard "sound teaching" as terrifically important and will often be pretty black and white as to what they regard as "truth" or "error" - quotes from the Bible will often be regarded as settling the issue. They will often have great difficulty in understanding Christians who read the Bible in a different way and will sometimes be disparaging to those they perceive as being more "liberal" than they. Fundamentalist Christians will have a tendency to exclusivity: ie they will regard Christianity as the one and only faith with any merit - adherents of other faiths or of none will be condemned, frequently (but not always) to a literal hell. Sin is seen almost exclusively as personal and social issues will often be centred on sexual-moral questions such as homosexuality, abortion, family issues, etc.

Moderate Christians: Moderate Christians are most strongly represented in traditional mainstream denominations such as methodism, anglicanism, some baptist conventions, etc, etc. People in this camp will also regard the Bible as central, but will often adopt a reflective, narrative-led approach to it as opposed to pure literalism. They will be content with the concept of the Bible containing various genres of writing, including poetic metaphor as well as history, and so on. People in this camp will claim they take the Bible just as seriously as anyone else, but will have no difficulty in conceiving the Bible as having to be read through the prism of modern understanding of it. Just as Fundamentalists have trouble understanding people who do not adopt a literalist approach, moderates will often have difficulty understanding biblical literalism. Moderates also regard "sound teaching" as important, but will frequently recognise that people have different "takes" on things and will tend to be fairly tolerant of this, recognising that people are often at different points on their journey - indeed, moderates will often regard earth-bound concepts of truth as provisional and partial in the light of the God who is far greater than any human formulation can devise. Moderates will tend to be less exclusive than Fundamentalists, seeing in Jesus someone who was terrifically inclusive - they will not generally claim that "all roads lead to heaven" or anything like that, but will normally regard God as being more compassionate and merciful than our earth-bound faith often recognises. And, while the Bible is central, so also is reason and the lessons of church history and these will affect the way the narrative is read. Moderate Christians will see sin both as personal AND as corporate, and will be concerned with social issues such as third-world development, ecology, and so on.

So there you have it. Both schools of though are well-represented in the world-wide church and I apologise if I have slightly misrepresented any views. I have not addressed liberal or charismatic theology here as those haven't really come up much in this thread. (I appreciate that fundamentalists may regard the moderate description above as "liberal" but by liberal I mean the more radical schools of thought such as the Jesus Seminar).

My point? Some of the differences are fairly substantial, but it is important imo to recognise that the church contains both - it is not helpful for either side to attempt to "unchurch" people who are persuaded differently. Nor is it especially accurate as both views have been represented from time immemorial and have made their own distinctive contributions to the whole.

Let's try for a little mutual understanding here - and not make it into a battle.

Cheers
Mike

[christiansoldier]

Thank you for the thoughtful post, Mike.

Speaking from whatever view you like, why did Jesus Christ allow Himself to be nailed to a cross?

[mn shutterbug]

If I ever talked down to the Christ, or to Nanak, or Krishna, or Nagarjuna, or any of the other brilliant religious leaders - I would hope someone could have the tenacity to put me in my spot.

Please do not compare Jesus to any of these other so called religious leaders. That is just plain foolish and dangerous. Jesus, and Jesus alone, sits on the right hand of God.

[adina]

Okay guys,

Once again, personal attacks will not be tolerated. I'm hoping (read: please do this) that those of you who have delivered them will go back and remove them yourself, so I don't have to. As in, do that now please. We are all grown-ups, and if you can't partake in the discussion without getting personal, then skip it and go to the next thread.

Also, I'm really hoping that you all have something photography related to share as well. As this is a photography forum. And, as like other forums, people get to know each other. Which is why we have an off topic forum. For people to share non-photography related things with the friends they have made. I sure hope that people aren't taking advantage of this and misusing it, causing the rest of us to miss out by this section of the forum being deleted.

[mn shutterbug]

Thanks Adina, for bringing this to light. I agree that this thread has been getting a bit out of hand. Let cool heads prevail. After all, the Bible says, we are to be slow to anger.

[adina]

Thanks Adina, for bringing this to light. I agree that this thread has been getting a bit out of hand. Let cool heads prevail. After all, the Bible says, we are to be slow to anger.

More importantly, PhotoJohn says personal attacks are not tolerated. If you can't abide by the rules of the forum, please take the discussion elsewhere.

This is not a matter of whose religion is right or wrong. This is a matter of what is tolerated by pr.com.

Not picking on you specifically...

[jgredline]

I am off to bed but leave you with this scripture to ponder.
Mt 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Perhaps tomorrow we can continue this quest on finding out what a Christian is..

I agree we need to get back on topic, hence my last post from yesterday.

[Didache]

Thank you for the thoughtful post, Mike.

Speaking from whatever view you like, why did Jesus Christ allow Himself to be nailed to a cross?

christiansoldier - I'm glad you appreciated it. I hope it helps.

Re the cross, there are a variety of views on this, all defendable from scripture. Let me list just a couple and then tell you what speaks especially to me.

The best known concept is that of Substitutionary Atonement. In a nutshell, Jesus "stood in" for sinful humanity on the cross - he was our "substitute". Some (eg St Anselm) see it as Jesus offering "satisfaction" to God's honour in a way only the perfect God-man could do. Others see it as Jesus suffering the punishment due to us (Penal Substitution). And certainly these two related ideas are true both to Scripture and Christian preaching (although the penal substitution seems largely to be followed by churches of the Reformation traditions).

There is also the notion of "ransom" .. according to this (eg Gregory of Nyssa in the 4th C) human sinfulness rendered us into the hands of Satan. Jesus, by becoming our ransom, "bought us back" from Satan. The Resurrection was a demonstration that Satan could not hold him, and so wound up with neither him nor us. This too has biblical warrant.

A third idea is that of "love" .. the cross is, in effect, the supreme demonstration of a love prepared to give everything in order to win back sinful humanity (Greater love has no man than this .... ). Meditating on this moves the viewer to appreciate the depths of God's love and also moves him or her to commitment (We love because he first loved us).

Now, please don't jump on me if I have grossly simplified these - it's not possible to do them justice in just a sentence or two. Nor have I made any attempt to be wholly comprehensive - I know there is a lot I have not mentioned. Indeed, when I was at theological college we spent a long time going through the various "theories of the atonement" (as they are known) and I KNOW there are others, and additional subtleties within the ones I have mentioned. I just thought it would be helpful to list a couple of the main ones even in brief.

I have mentioned that all of these have some biblical warrant, and I am personally persuaded that no single "theory" (horrible word for such an important thing, but I can think of no other) can do it justice, but that all have a part to play and will speak to different people on different levels. For instance, I can well imagine how a substitutionary atonement will speak very clearly to someone who feels a sense of guilt or unworthiness. And I can imagine how someone with a deep need to be "embraced" will be especially touched by the love idea.

For myself, there are two ideas which speak especially to me: First the love one. The night I was converted really was a kind of epiphany. I won't go into my whole testimony here (It would take hours!) but I had the most incredible and real sense of being "held" by God, of being "loved" by God, and that there was nothing that could ever happen which would take me away from that (end of Romans 8 sums it up rather well). It was never, to me, a matter of guilt or unworthiness - just this sense of being loved. It is a sense that has never left me, although it sometimes runs a little low. It was this sense which resulted in my own conversion, and which has influenced my own theology and my preaching ever since.

The other idea which touches me is more a product of modern theological thinking. I did my dissertation on theological ideas arising from the holocaust. This brought me into contact with theologians like Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Jurgen Moltmann. A quote (I can't remember the author) that influenced me was "The God we believe in must be consistent with the fact of Auschwitz". The idea I found helpful was the cross as God's supreme identification with all who suffer in a world that sometimes seems "God-forsaken". Jesus' suffering and sense of abandonment seemed to me to be a very powerful image of a God who did not remain "above" human misery, but who entered into it to share it and redeem it. Hence the cross is not just about the promise of a better life that God will take us to in order to be with him – it is also the promise of God to be with us in this mortal world where terrible, terrible things happen. Another quote which sums this up "There was a cross in the heart of God before there was one planted on the green hill outside of Jerusalem. And now that the cross of wood has been taken down, the one in the heart of God abides, and it will remain so long as there is one sinful soul for whom to suffer.” In short, the crucified Christ is the sign of God’s deep engagement with the world. As Dietrich Bonhoeffer himself once said: “Only the suffering God can help”.

Now, those last two paragraphs are personal (and hence not up for debate) - but are offered in a spirit of honesty about what moves me about this amazing man on a cross.

Other people will find, I imagine, other aspects of it which speak to their hearts - that is as it should be.

Mike

PS If anyone is interested, some of my images from Auschwitz: http://www.mikedalesphotography.co.u...olio34075.html

[adina]

my unofficial opinion...

If more people were less concerned about what religion everyone else is and whether or not it's right or wrong, the world would be a much better place.

So many people spend so much time and go to any length to prove that they are right, and it has accounted for too many deaths to number.

There is no way possible that everyone on this planet is going to believe in one specific branch of one specific religion. It's impossible. Our beliefs are not something that can be changed overnight, or with a handful of threads on an internet forum.

Yes, discuss what YOU BELIEVE makes a Christian, or a Buddist, or a Wiccan. But bear in mind that different cultures, even different upbringings and life experiences shape our beliefs, and if those can change so easily, you should reconsider why you believe them.

I, for example, believe that you should recycle everything you can. I met a guy the other day who doesn't believe in recycling anything but aluminum cans. To be, this is just as polar opposite as people are on religion. Will I convince him to recycle? Maybe one day, but it would take far more than a week of sending him emails. Is he wrong? Or am I? Depends on who you ask. There's volumes of information on either side.

Is my religion more right than yours? Is your's more right than the next guy? To you, or to me, yeah, sure. Should we judge? No. Should we share our viewpoints? Heck yeah, how do we learn anything without access to knowledge? Should we belittle anyone who believes differently? No.

What is a Christian? Depends on who you ask. No one is right, no one is wrong. It's all in your belief system.

[jgredline]

You know what, I just don't have the patience for this discussion, I feel probably something like Neitzche felt as he watched a horse get brutally beaten. Sorry for getting in the mud guys, I'm done with this thread.

For the record, the self-proclaimed holy trinity Heluvs, soldier, and Javier have been throwing out personal attacks since page 1 of this thread. They can mask it as theology all they want.

Sorry if you feel this way and I will miss our conversations. I do not believe I attacked you once. Only your beliefs...I hope you don't leave this thread, but it is your choice.

[Anbesol]

Well, I for one will stand that recycling is a good practice, and until someone appeals to my sense of judgment otherwise, I will continue to think so. Someone saying 'you must not recycle or you go to hell', is an appeal of the lowest possible intellectual caliber, and will not convince me that recycling is bad, it will convince me that said person is tragically thoughtless. Similarly, I will not follow a religion if someone tries to pander to my mortal fears, religion is not exempt from the requirement of being reasonable, unreasonable religion is unreasonable religion - regardless of what fear someone is trying to exploit. "Believe or else" is a threat, its pandering, its insipid and its insane. The idea that divine judgment applies to a persons belief as opposed to the place of their heart is nonsense, Jesus demonstrated this with the good Samaritan parable too. But I guess some people want to feel more righteous than everybody else. Big and scary world, eh, I guess clinging to religion is the way some people choose to cope. I still think its a self-destructive (and consequentially, socially destructive) coping mechanism.