What is a Christian?

[Didache]

Let's be accurate at least: Q is not a gnostic gospel, nor has ever been declared heretical. It was purely a hypothesis that there was a common sayings source used by Matthew and Luke (apart from Mark which predated them). Q is just short for Quelle which is German for "source".

Mike

[mn shutterbug]

I am simply arguing the point, by using objective textual critiques, science, and a sound philosophical core.

Science has absolutely nothing to do with why we are here and what our purpose in life is.

[Anbesol]

Oh boy, Javier, are you for real? You couldn't respond to a single thing I said, you are just being exceptionally irrelevant.

Okay, I think your interpretation of the Bible is an exploitation of mortal anxieties and the clinging to a false fantasy life. You COULD say 2+2=4, but you aren't saying that. What you are saying is, 2+2=youneedtomakejesuschristyourlordandsaviororgot ohell. It is a wrong conclusion.

"Q" is a heretical Gospel? Its the hypothesis for the source of Matthew and Luke, and possibly Mark as well. It shows how open minded you are, you dismiss somethings merit before you know a thing about it. You always just give your absolute unthinking allegiance to the church in regards to everything?

[Anbesol]

Science has absolutely nothing to do with why we are here and what our purpose in life is.

What do you mean??

[christiansoldier]

That isn't what I meant when I said that, I meant an objective textual analysis. No less, are you supposing that the earth is 6000 years old, and men literally came magically from dust then?

I think 'magically' is a poor choice of words, unless you view God as a Genie.

Personally, I have no problem with either a literal acceptance of a 24 hr day in creation or 1000 year day.

God expressed Himself pretty well to Job, in regards to questioning what He can or can not do, don't you think?

Isaiah made some pretty poignant points in this regard, as well.

[mn shutterbug]

This is a thread regarding christianity, and you can't argue true christianity with science. They don't mix.

[christiansoldier]

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

Just to refresh the topic for new readers, the Thomas quote in question here is vs. 14:

'Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits."'

Anbesol, your original reply had been:

Yes, Thomas tradition, taken directly from the Thomas Gospel (verse 6? I think) after his disciples asked of him "How should we fast, [...] pray, [...] give alms".

It was only now, when going to 'refetch' the Thomas quote that I saw that vs 6 is, indeed, the disciples asking in regards to pray, fast, charity. Here is the question and the reply:

'His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed." '

Interesting exchange...

Now back to my original point...the direct opposition between Thomas and God's Word.

Let's start with 'pray' - according to Thomas's Jesus, condemnation results from prayer.

Here are but a few examples of what the NT, alone, in fact just a small portion of Matthew, says on prayer:

# Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:43-45 (in Context)


# Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:4-6 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:5-7 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:6-8 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:8-10 (in Context)

# Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matthew 9:37-38 (in Context)

# Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Matthew 14:22-24 (in Context)

Need I go on?

[christiansoldier]

Let's look at 'charity' while we are at it:

1. 1 Corinthians 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 (in Context)

2. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

3. 1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

4. 1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:2-4 (in Context)

5. 1 Corinthians 13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:3-5 (in Context)

6. 1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:7-9 (in Context)

7. 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (in Context)

8. 1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:1-3 (in Context)

9. 1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all your things be done with charity.
1 Corinthians 16:13-15 (in Context)

10. Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Colossians 3:13-15 (in Context)

11. 1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:5-7 (in Context)

12. 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2 Thessalonians 1:2-4 (in Context)

13. 1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Timothy 1:4-6 (in Context)

14. 1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:14-15 (in Context)

[christiansoldier]

There are also examples for 'fast' that blow Thomas out of the water...

[jgredline]

Let's be accurate at least: Q is not a gnostic gospel, nor has ever been declared heretical. It was purely a hypothesis that there was a common sayings source used by Matthew and Luke (apart from Mark which predated them). Q is just short for Quelle which is German for "source".

Mike

Agreed...I am glad to see you did not try and defend the Heresy of the gospel of thomas...
As far as ''Q'' goes, first, you are aware that it is more of a phantom document right?.
I am not suprised to hear you treat it as none heresy, since these ''sayings of Jesus'' is where Matthew and Luke got parts of their gospels from...The only folks that seem to defend this document are Liberal theologians because of how closely related it is to the gospel of thomas....Tell me Mike, What are your thoughts of the ''Jesus seminars''? Would you agree they are heretical?

Mike, to be fair, when I first saw your screen name, I said to myself...How very cool..A man of God...I believe ''The Didache'' to be good...Not inspired, but not hereticle..In fact it would teach against some of the things you believe...

[christiansoldier]

Javier, color me ignorant -

Would this be a fair summary of the 'Jesus Seminars'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

[Didache]

Javier? I didn't understand your last post at all .. the only folks who defend what document? Thomas? Q?

If you meant Q then it is nonsense to claim that it is only supported because of some alleged connection to Thomas. In fact, the Q-hypothesis was formulated considerably before the discovery of Thomas. And of course it is a phantom document. It was only a hypothesis, one of several to explain the common material between Matthew and Luke. The point was that nobody had ever seen a "sayings" document before. The discovery of Thomas simply indicated that such documents existed and therefore the hypothesis was feasible, not that there is any connection between Thomas and Q.

Mike

[jgredline]

Off the subject entirely - I want to point out something I found very funny.

You know the oaths of office, and the oath you take in the court room, "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god?"

James 5:12 "Above all things, my brothers, swear not, neither by heaven, by earth, or any other oath. Instead, let your yes be yes, and your no be no, lest you be condemned"

Folks...
This is what I am talking about every time I say context...Here is a classic example of anbesol taking this verse out of context...

The parrale version to this verse James is speaking of is
Mt 5:33-37
33 “Again you have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform your oaths to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, do not swear at all: neither by heaven, for it is God’s throne; 35 nor by the earth, for it is His footstool; nor by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you swear by your head, because you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one.

Next lets jump ahead to Matt 16 for the answer to this question...Mt 23:16-18 “Woe to you, blind guides, who say, ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it.’ 17 Fools and blind! For which is greater, the gold or the temple that sanctifies the gold? 18 And, ‘Whoever swears by the altar, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gift that is on it, he is obliged to perform it.’ ...Folks, what was happening was that the religious leaders of the day where making promises they where not keeping and had NO intention of ever keeping...When Jesus said ‘Whoever swears by the temple, it is nothing; but whoever swears by the gold of the temple, he is obliged to perform it., what he is referring to is that in the Talmud, the Pharisees had written very specefic ways in order to avoid keeping a promise...
For example...I swear to my mother that I will pay you back next week...Swearing to my mother has no weight..It means nothing...If I said, I swear to God, then I was expected to keep my promise..In those days a broken promise that was sworn by God could result in death...Since the Pharisees where always twisting scripture and breaking promises, they essentially wrote their own rules in the Talmud and then they even had the Mishna as a commentary per say....

Through out the bible we have examples of Paul and many others making Promises (taking oaths) including Jesus / GOD God of course can only swear by himself to himself...So when Jesus says ''But let your ‘Yes’ be ‘Yes,’ and your ‘No,’ ‘No.’ For whatever is more than these is from the evil one'' He is simply saying if you make a promise, you keep it..If you have no intention of keeping it, don't make it...

[jgredline]

Javier, color me ignorant -

Would this be a fair summary of the 'Jesus Seminars'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

Soldier,
It has been a while since I have studied the Jesus Seminars, but basically it was a teaching straight from the pit of hell...This was lead by a fellow named Robert Funk if memory serves me well...He basically said the the Miracles jesus did never happened, that all prophecy is false, no old testament ...That Jesus may have said 20% of what we have in the bible etc...In other words, the bible as we know it is all wrong....

Perhaps do a google search on him...

[jgredline]

Javier? I didn't understand your last post at all .. the only folks who defend what document? Thomas? Q?

If you meant Q then it is nonsense to claim that it is only supported because of some alleged connection to Thomas. In fact, the Q-hypothesis was formulated considerably before the discovery of Thomas. And of course it is a phantom document. It was only a hypothesis, one of several to explain the common material between Matthew and Luke. The point was that nobody had ever seen a "sayings" document before. The discovery of Thomas simply indicated that such documents existed and therefore the hypothesis was feasible, not that there is any connection between Thomas and Q.

Mike

OK, Fair enough. I misunderstood you...I thought you where treating it as a historical document of facts...My bad...

[jgredline]

Thank you, Anbesol, for this clarification. To me, it seems like one’s actions and thoughts are all that should be important - not one's affiliation nor religious education/understanding.

Except there is more to it than this...The bible says Isa 64:6 But we are all like an unclean thing, And all our righteousnesses are like filthy rags; We all fade as a leaf, And our iniquities, like the wind, Have taken us away So all of our good thoughts and actions are but like filthy rags...With out the righteousness of Jesus, nothing we do matters...Only those who are cleaned by the blood of the Lamb are righteous....

Anyone: Consider an elderly tribesman in the depths of the Amazon jungle who spends his whole life teaching, raising, and healing his clan. Or consider a mother raising a family as best as she can in an impoverished neighborhood on a hillside outside Mexico City. And consider an 18-year-old inner city student who, despite his limited time and resources, does what he can by volunteering at the local shelter. For various reasons, none of these people have stepped foot in a church and have no concept of religion. If they all died tragically this morning, what happens to them?

Gald you asked...The bible says '' Romans 3:18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.'' Basically God sees the heart...He knows if these folks would have been presented with the Gospel, that they would have accept or reject him..
When Jesus was in the Grave for three days, he was preaching his Gospel as he set the captives free...So every one is ''WITHOUT'' excuse....

Anbesol, regarding your earlier post asking, “Are we then, not Animals?” – I say, yes, we certainly are in every sense. Many other species exhibit long and lasting social bonds, communication skills, reasoning abilities, and compassion. Are we any better? In fact, there is no other species more intolerant of other species, the environment, or members of its own species than Man himself.

Sounds like Budism to me...You guys can be animals, but according to the bible I am made in the image of God...''Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness.......Notice God is speaking in the plural here...The Holy Trinity....

[Anbesol]

Folks...
This is what I am talking about every time I say context...Here is a classic example of anbesol taking this verse out of context...

Javier, now you are being exceedingly petty and irrelevant. I didn't draw any serious conclusions from the scripture with this, just pointed out something I thought was somewhat amusing Irony. I find it funny that you respond to something I say in no seriousness, and avoid responding to what I say in seriousness. Whatever little thing you can do to try and posture your theology above mine, huh?

And as far as Q goes - it is a hypothesis, yes, but its a substantive and highly likely hypothesis. As of yet, it is the best hypothesis we have to go by, and Thomas only added more substantiation to the hypothesis. Yes, it is a phantom document, good thing your brutal Church forefathers destroyed any so-called 'heretical' writings (including execution and torture of so-called 'heretics'), otherwise your bold and fragile orthodoxy that proclaims superiority may be in danger of collapsing onto its foundation. But, who knows - they were able to suppress the Thomas Gospel for 1600 years, maybe something else they've suppressed will eventually surmise as well.

[jgredline]

Anbesol,
Don't worry, I have not avoided your statement...Not once..Infact I look forward to responding to it for the sake of others that may be following. For now I am off on a picture hunt. Trying to decide where to go...Perhaps and old mission or a duck pond..I will see..But, I have lots to say in regards to your long winded post, be patient...

[christiansoldier]

Javier, now you are being exceedingly petty and irrelevant. I didn't draw any serious conclusions from the scripture with this, just pointed out something I thought was somewhat amusing Irony. I find it funny that you respond to something I say in no seriousness, and avoid responding to what I say in seriousness. Whatever little thing you can do to try and posture your theology above mine, huh?

And as far as Q goes - it is a hypothesis, yes, but its a substantive and highly likely hypothesis. As of yet, it is the best hypothesis we have to go by, and Thomas only added more substantiation to the hypothesis. Yes, it is a phantom document, good thing your brutal Church forefathers destroyed any so-called 'heretical' writings (including execution and torture of so-called 'heretics'), otherwise your bold and fragile orthodoxy that proclaims superiority may be in danger of collapsing onto its foundation. But, who knows - they were able to suppress the Thomas Gospel for 1600 years, maybe something else they've suppressed will eventually surmise as well.

I sure don't see much substance to it. There was a list of sayings...so what? Confucius has sayings...they make great fortune cookies, but I wouldn't want to build a theology around them.

Speaking of avoiding responses, I have given plenty of evidence where 'Thomas' flies in the face of God's Word, yet you still cling to it like the Holy Grail. That, of course, is something you are entirely free to do.

I do wonder why you label yourself as Buddhist/Christian rather than Buddhist/Thomasian

[reverberation]

I must say, this has been the most interesting thread I have read in quite some time. I was going to interject my perspective several times, but concluded my perspective might broaden the focus of the thread and cloud some interesting topics. I know that everyone who posted is right, and I thank them for posting.
The questions that pop into my mind every time I see someone quoting the Bible are; Does the poster think there have been people who would (or could) change what was in the Bible for their own reasons? and if so what portion of the Bible do they think has been unaltered?
The reason I ask these questions is because I have seen the other side... fear based religion. This is a point of contention between me and some of the principles (they see it as more of an expansion of the human being into a God-being, a transcending of the human condition). I call it fear based because it seeks personal power, one person over another. I am talking about Satanism of course, specifically a branch with a generation in Northwestern, NJ. During the forties there was a rally for Hitler held At The Fairview Lake Campgrounds, at least that is how the Newsreel described it, it may have been a rally for something a little older.
The Elders of this religion have a book with no beginning and no end. I think it is one of a group of books. The one I saw was hand printed on parchment with hand illustrations. It was in Latin, and was about a family through three generations, only the family members were described as characters, they had no names, they were caricatures really. It started where it ended, the last characters in the book begat the beginning characters. To put them into perspective, I would say they are people who would switch two babies at birth so they could have a brother marry a sister twenty years later, and they would not care what brand of Christianity those children practiced. Their prayer is mockery. I have had numerous arguments with a guy who used to dress as a priest (he did study in a seminary but was prevented from completion) and beg on the 16th street mall in Denver. He is from this same group. The one thing he said that stuck in my head was,"Jesus was no different than a dog, he just did what was in his nature." The intonation and inflection in his voice held all the meaning in his statement as it often does with these folks.
Thats the thing for me, it changed my perspective, I saw the whole picture. The problem with christian religion, or any religion for that matter, is that it is vulnerable to politics. I just see everyone who believes, (christianity) wherever they live on this planet, arguing with others, who also believe, about things that do not matter. All the while there are extremely organized groups who have evolved a method of worship based on dominating "outsiders". These are the people who are in control. This is just my opinion of course, which I base on my perspective.
I would also ask, who do you honor with your argument? Yourself or Christ?

[Skyman]

LOL are we aiming to write a PR creed?

[christiansoldier]

Reverberation

Thanks for chiming in.

Are you saying that your experience with Satanists has 'soured' you on Christianity?

As far as Christians arguing goes, are you familiar with the phrase Iron sharpens iron?

There are many non-essential doctrines that Christians enjoy discussing...often vehemently...that the truth of which will never be fully known during this flash-in-the-pan we call life.

Hence...'we see through a glass darkly, but, one day, face to face.'

Regarding the validity of the Bible, hey, it is possible that the book is a crock, that there is no god and we live, we die, we rot. Isn't that where Faith comes into the picture?

[reverberation]

Reverberation

Thanks for chiming in.

Are you saying that your experience with Satanists has 'soured' you on Christianity?

As far as Christians arguing goes, are you familiar with the phrase Iron sharpens iron?

There are many non-essential doctrines that Christians enjoy discussing...often vehemently...that the truth of which will never be fully known during this flash-in-the-pan we call life.

Hence...'we see through a glass darkly, but, one day, face to face.'

Regarding the validity of the Bible, hey, it is possible that the book is a crock, that there is no god and we live, we die, we rot. Isn't that where Faith comes into the picture?

I note your language and appreciate your questions. I am saying I have a perspective, I have a sightline that encompasses the battleground. Christians will lose the war, and the Satanists will win and kill everyone including themselves. They will not be sent to "hell" but will be sent into "nothingness". They will never have existed. Its complicated but its true. Like a contraction during a birth.
I do not mean to question or diminish anyones faith. I have been pressed and have found exactly what my faith does for me. This is a great thread, and I felt I should honestly respond to it just like everyone else. The only difference is my perspective.

[reverberation]

LOL are we aiming to write a PR creed?

What is a PR creed? Its true what I write, I have thought about selling the story for money, but decided to post it here. I know the consequences of this decision. I guess what I am saying is that there is a battle in this world between Good and Evil and I think the front lines are at your back.

[jgredline]

I note your language and appreciate your questions. I am saying I have a perspective, I have a sightline that encompasses the battleground. Christians will lose the war, and the Satanists will win and kill everyone including themselves. They will not be sent to "hell" but will be sent into "nothingness". They will never have existed. Its complicated but its true. Like a contraction during a birth.
I do not mean to question or diminish anyones faith. I have been pressed and have found exactly what my faith does for me. This is a great thread, and I felt I should honestly respond to it just like everyone else. The only difference is my perspective.

reverberation, You are most welcome and I for one look forward to conversing with you....I need to get to some of the other threads here and in particular anbesol, but wanted to extend an olive branch..On a second note, I have known and been a part of folks leaving different religions and to be honest, I see no difference between satanism and say budism...