What is a Christian?

[jgredline]

Hi folks...
Gosh I logged in to respond to the McCain thread and was saddened to see it was locked....

But some things really had me confused...I am really hoping to clarify some things here and folks will not be afraid to share what they believe...

With so many people calling themselves Christians, I would like to hear from individuals what they believe a true Christian to be....

Don't be shy, lets here it..

[adina]

the other thread was locked because people were making thier comments to and about the poster, instead of the posts.

please keep that in mind as this thread progesses....

[Skyman]

the other thread was locked because people were making thier comments to and about the poster, instead of the posts.

please keep that in mind as this thread progesses....

I am not a moderator for the off topic, but I think people need reminding. and perspective.

It is not acceptable to use personally attacking language as has been explained elsewhere in the off topic forums.

The original question was what is a christian. people have stated their opinions on this matter and others have stated alternate opinions.

we seem to have wandered off topic in the process and started using language that has been perceived to be attacking. I cannot claim innocence in this process, but as with all of you I am proud to be a member of photographyreview.com most other sites would have canned this thread before it even started. It is a credit the members here that we can have discussion on such emotionally charged topics in a sensible way. Can I suggest that we try to bring it back on topic.

[Anbesol]

I think the word 'Christian' is an exploited label.

Maybe you're referencing my accusation to soldier as part of your question, I dunno. I am sorry if I offended I was a little over the top. I'm just fed up with the contemporary practice hailing their allegiances to the Nicene apostleship. He suggested that 'Christianity should not be a state mandated religion', I found it quite ironic that he would say that coming from the tradition of a state mandated religion.

[jgredline]

I think the word 'Christian' is an exploited label.

. I agree, this is why I asked the question.

Maybe you're referencing my accusation to soldier as part of your question, I dunno.

No, I was asking the question based on the overall thread. I believe that there where atleast 6 different versions of what a Christian is...

I am sorry if I offended I was a little over the top. I'm just fed up with the contemporary practice hailing their allegiances to the Nicene apostleship.

I was not offended at all...

He suggested that 'Christianity should not be a state mandated religion',

I would agree with this, but not only Christianity, but feel people should be able to choose whom they will serve.

I found it quite ironic that he would say that coming from the tradition of a state mandated religion.

I would need to go back and read this in context..

But again, I think it would be good to find out what people think a Christian really is...Perhaps I am wrong in what I believe?

Perhaps Mike would be so kind as to explain what A Christian is. Example, I do not believe Mormons to be Christians, yet they call them self Christians...The KKK also call themselves Christian...So what is a Christian?

[Didache]

Perhaps Mike would be so kind as to explain what A Christian is. Example, I do not believe Mormons to be Christians, yet they call them self Christians...The KKK also call themselves Christian...So what is a Christian?

Gosh - there is a challenge and a half!

But you ask, so I will attempt some kind of an answer although I admit that it is only partial and someone, I'm sure, will leap in and call me wrong. Worst still, it is impossible to give a clear answer without a certain amount of theological jargon. Still, here goes:

An "orthodox" Christian will be someone who believes in God and that He has revealed himself to the world supremely through Jesus of Nazareth: his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and continuing presence in the world through the Spirit. Jesus shared in the very nature of God, yet left the glory of divinity behind in order to share fully in all that it means to be human for the sake of love. An "orthodox" Christian will believe in this, and will see in it the means by which God reconciled the world to himself and will, in return, commit himself/herself to follow and love the Christ who so willingly gave himself so they might be part of the Kingdom.

A lot of this is summarised in the great ecumenical creeds of the Church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). I will not paste them all, but the Apostle's Creed is not a bad start:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic (ie universal) Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

That, together with the other ecumenical creeds, will define pretty well what an "orthodox" Christian believes (although of course some of the clauses might be understood differently by different people).

You ask about Mormons (and by extension Jehovah's Witnesses etc). It is better to call these "heterodox" in that they reject certain aspects of historical belief, particularly the Trinitarian nature of God and the divinity of Christ. While I would not go so far as to say they are "not Christian", they are certainly not "orthodox" ones, and I think they would admit that themselves.

As for the KKK etc, I think that part of the definition includes "following", ie being Christ-like themselves. In other words, being a Christian is not merely a matter of believing the right things, but also in allowing those beliefs to shape your own world view and behaviour. After all, even the devil believes the "right things"!

In the end though, it is not my place to judge whether someone is or is not a Christian - that judgement is left to the one who is far more qualified than I am. I suspect though that when we arrive at the pearly gates, the question will not be "Did you believe in the Athanasian Creed formulation of the Trinity?", but "Did you love me?"

Cheers
Mike

[Anbesol]

"Did you love me?"

And what about the Buddhists, who many would answer 'yes', but hail from a significantly different tradition and philosophy? What about the atheists who would likely say 'no'? Moreover, what about the fish, the birds, the lions, the dolphins, the elephants, the foxes and the wolves, the rhino's, and the turtles? I think often times when people get into religion, they forget the reality that we are all animals. Perhaps the better question is 'Did you love?'

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

[jetrim]

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

I have a close friend that converted to juddaism, his take on it is,
"Any religion that was good enough for Jesus is good enough for me"



I will post a meaningful response to the original question when I have a bit more time to organize my thoughts.

[jgredline]

Anbesol,
Thanks for sharing that. I can see where your pro life stance comes from...I think you bring up some good points. I don't agree with them, but good points none the less.

Jetrim,
Thanks for sharing your point.
I look forward to reading what your thoughts are on what A Christian is...

[jgredline]

And what about the Buddhists, who many would answer 'yes', but hail from a significantly different tradition and philosophy? What about the atheists who would likely say 'no'? Moreover, what about the fish, the birds, the lions, the dolphins, the elephants, the foxes and the wolves, the rhino's, and the turtles? I think often times when people get into religion, they forget the reality that we are all animals. Perhaps the better question is 'Did you love?'

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

The bible says we are ''like'' animals, but not animals..
Here is a very contested verse, Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in my heart,
“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked,
For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.” 18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

From a theological point of view, man is made up of body and soul, same as an animal. This is called a dichotomy... When a person becomes born again (gets saved) man then receives the Holy Spirit and thus becomes a trichotomy...Some theologians believe that when a Christian is born again, the spirit that was dead with in them comes alive and thus forming a trichotomy. I am fine with either view...

By the way, I should also mention that the bible interchanges the word spirit and soul through out the scriptures so one must look at the context...

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

[Didache]

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

This raises some interesting points too. There is a strong thrust in the Bible that it is not only humans who are redeemed but, somehow, all creation. The Genesis story, whether you believe it literally or not, seems to thrust towards the whole of creation being corrupted by the Fall.

See for instance: 17And to the man he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten of the tree
about which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.)

Isaiah refers to lions lying with lambs etc - in other words, all creation being at peace with itself when the Messiah comes.

Paul himself speaks of the same kind of thing (Romans 8:19ff)

Then, in Revelation, it speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. In other words, all creation is somehow caught up in this great act of redemption.

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

When my Son asked me if our dog Sam will be in heaven with us, my answer to him, Yes, I believe so...I told him how the bible speaks of animals in heaven like those you mentioned as well as horses...As far as redemption goes, I will disagree with you there. While I do believe ''some'' animals will be in heaven, I do not believe all animals will be there..There is just not enough biblical support for this...Yet the plan of Salvation for man is clear...

To me this is one of those Gray non salvation areas, where we can agree to disagree...

Mike, What are your views on hell? Is it literal?
By the way, I hold to a literal view of creation and a literal view of hell..

[Didache]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

Again, this is an area where we can agree to disagree..
So I take it to mean you believe in the Gap theory? iF so, I have no problem with it..We can discuss this in more detail in another thread.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

So do you believe in a universal salvation?
Do you believe in annihilation?
What do you make of what Jesus said in Matt 25:46?

[christiansoldier]

Gosh - there is a challenge and a half!

But you ask, so I will attempt some kind of an answer although I admit that it is only partial and someone, I'm sure, will leap in and call me wrong. Worst still, it is impossible to give a clear answer without a certain amount of theological jargon. Still, here goes:

An "orthodox" Christian will be someone who believes in God and that He has revealed himself to the world supremely through Jesus of Nazareth: his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and continuing presence in the world through the Spirit. Jesus shared in the very nature of God, yet left the glory of divinity behind in order to share fully in all that it means to be human for the sake of love. An "orthodox" Christian will believe in this, and will see in it the means by which God reconciled the world to himself and will, in return, commit himself/herself to follow and love the Christ who so willingly gave himself so they might be part of the Kingdom.

A lot of this is summarised in the great ecumenical creeds of the Church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). I will not paste them all, but the Apostle's Creed is not a bad start:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic (ie universal) Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

That, together with the other ecumenical creeds, will define pretty well what an "orthodox" Christian believes (although of course some of the clauses might be understood differently by different people).

You ask about Mormons (and by extension Jehovah's Witnesses etc). It is better to call these "heterodox" in that they reject certain aspects of historical belief, particularly the Trinitarian nature of God and the divinity of Christ. While I would not go so far as to say they are "not Christian", they are certainly not "orthodox" ones, and I think they would admit that themselves.

As for the KKK etc, I think that part of the definition includes "following", ie being Christ-like themselves. In other words, being a Christian is not merely a matter of believing the right things, but also in allowing those beliefs to shape your own world view and behaviour. After all, even the devil believes the "right things"!

In the end though, it is not my place to judge whether someone is or is not a Christian - that judgement is left to the one who is far more qualified than I am. I suspect though that when we arrive at the pearly gates, the question will not be "Did you believe in the Athanasian Creed formulation of the Trinity?", but "Did you love me?"

Cheers
Mike

This is post #7, Mike.

I see you have listed what an 'orthodox' Christian would believe. On first reading when you originally posted, I wasn't clear on whether you were in agreement with the creed, or merely referencing it as a starting point in the discussion.

A direct answer might be the best approach, if you do not mind...

Jesus Christ is God incarnate?

[Didache]

Yes of course. I may belong to the moderate school, but I am an orthodox Christian in every respect. The Baptist Union of Great Britain would not have ordained me otherwise!

Mike

[christiansoldier]

Yes of course. I may belong to the moderate school, but I am an orthodox Christian in every respect. The Baptist Union of Great Britain would not have ordained me otherwise!

Mike

Thanks for clarifying...I do not want to fall into assumptions, if I can help it.

While I would never presume to know how any individual ultimately will fare in terms of salvation, I think it is more than permissible to look at the teachings of other religions in terms of how they compare to the teachings of the Holy Bible.

Mormon doctrine, for example, teaches about Jesus Christ, but if one digs down just a bit it is evident that believing in the Christ they espouse is a far cry from the Christ the Bible describes. It is my fervent prayer that God looks only at the heart of the individual. Goodness, my own father passed away this passed April, an atheist, but a good and wonderful man.

I am hopeful that Christ reveals Himself before the final curtain falls and allows everyone to make a final decision...but, I also grieve because that is not scriptural.

I created a memorial to him and its made up of photos, so, I guess its appropriate to this forum as well (just don't critique the photo quality )

In Loving Memory

[Didache]

I created a memorial to him and its made up of photos, so, I guess its appropriate to this forum as well (just don't critique the photo quality )

That is a lovely tribute. My own father died quite a few years ago and even when he was alive we did not have a particularly good relationship. You are very fortunate to have such good and loving memories - not everyone is so blessed. I know that, once the grief of this time passes, those memories will be the source of many a smile. Thanks for sharing it with us.

In my job I do a lot of funerals (I reckon around 300 of them so far!). Quite a few are of faithful Christian people, many of whom were members of my congregations. However, not all were. Sometimes they were members of church families, and sometimes not. It certainly forces you to examine your theology of death when you are conducting funerals for such as these, especially when you meet the families and realise how truly good some of these people were. Sometimes they were a lot more "Christian" (at least in terms of lovingness) than some who bear the Name.

I cannot and will not ever believe that anything which is good and true and loving is ever really lost - how could it be when God himself is the source of love? I am perfectly aware of what the New Testament says (at least that one understanding of it), but do we not also claim that "what is impossible for man is not impossible for God"?

Be encouraged.

Mike

[GB1]

I petition to unlock that thread! It was a little heated at times but there was enough interesting, fun and crazy stuff in there to write a novel with.

[jgredline]

I petition to unlock that thread! It was a little heated at times but there was enough interesting, fun and crazy stuff in there to write a novel with.

I agree. I was not able to participate in the last few pages because I was swamped at work and actually had to work ...The worst part is that I have not been out all week so I have not been able to shoot any pictures...But certainly, there are many things in there to question...

[reverberation]

Mike, thanks for that post, your last two questions really bring this subject into focus for me.

Personally, I consider myself a Christian because I follow the one commandment that Jesus gave.
I don't believe in those others because there are ten of them.
Any being that created the big bang and has seen all time would not need that many letters to give good direction,
a simple slogan would clearly be the best way to communicate effectively
through time and culture, at least in my opinion. My perspective.
I would vote for it as the best advice ever given anyone
who happened to be spinning
on a large lump of rock
with a small atmosphere
through a vacuum
around a flaming
concentration of gas.

[Solo]

Mike, thanks for that post, your last two questions really bring this subject into focus for me.

Personally, I consider myself a Christian because I follow the one commandment that Jesus gave.
I don't believe in those others because there are ten of them.
Any being that created the big bang and has seen all time would not need that many letters to give good direction,
a simple slogan would clearly be the best way to communicate effectively
through time and culture, at least in my opinion. My perspective.
I would vote for it as the best advice ever given anyone
who happened to be spinning
on a large lump of rock
with a small atmosphere
through a vacuum
around a flaming
concentration of gas.

Hello Reverberation.

I am interested in knowing what you consider to be the "one commandment that Jesus gave."

According to the only books that reveals Jesus Christ to us are the books written by the original witnesses of him and his works. I would like to share with you the commandment that Jesus answered as being the "great" commandment, and the second "like unto it" commandment; which all of the commandments of the law and the prophets hang upon these two "great" commandments.

Which of these two, and the other "ten" do you consider unnecessary to obey today?

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:34-40 KJV

Following are the "Ten Commandments" given to us in Exodus, chapter 20:

1. 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
   
2. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
   
3. 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
   
4. 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
   
5. 'Honor your father and your mother.'
   
6. 'You shall not murder.'
   
7. 'You shall not commit adultery.'
   
8. 'You shall not steal.'
   
9. 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
   
10. 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Thank you,
Michael

PS. Obeying the ten commandments do not make an individual a Christian.

[jgredline]

Mike, I would say I agree with most of what you have written, well done, but I do have a few more questions concerning your post..

Reverberation, Thank you very much for sharing your beliefs. There are many, MANY, folks who who hold to the same basic beliefs. Certainly by definition since you follow Jesus, that would make you a Jesus / Christian follower

I look forward to hearing others beliefs as well..

[Frog]

I'm pretty much with Mike and he expresses it much better than I could.
What do you think a Christian is, Javier?

[jgredline]

I'm pretty much with Mike and he expresses it much better than I could.
What do you think a Christian is, Javier?

Thanks Frog. Mikes comments where quite good...
To answer your question, I cheated somewhat. Here is a part of an article I found in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian
I find I am more like number two...Again, though, this is simply scratching the surface...I will share more of my beliefs a little later...I still want to hear from more folks...
1 Active Christians: Believe salvation comes through Jesus Christ, are committed churchgoers and Bible readers, accept church leadership positions and invest in personal faith development through the church. They also feel obligated to share faith, and about four out of five do so.
2Professing Christians: Also are committed to "accepting Christ as Savior and Lord" as the key to being a Christian (almost 9 in 10), but focus on one's personal relationships with God and Jesus more than on church and Bible reading and sharing faith.