What is a Christian?

[Frog]

Amen, Mike!!

[jgredline]

Quite a few big questions being raised here! Too many to address them all in any depth, or even at all. But, just a few points:

Maybe so, but they are very important questions...
I really would like to know if you hold to Annihilation?
If you believe that all roads lead to heaven?
Do you believe their are mistake in the bible?

Javier - not I don't believe in a "gap theory" - I just don't read the creation account in any sense literally, but poetically and mythically (in the proper sense of myth). There is huge truth in it, but truth comes in other forms than literal. "My love is like a red, red rose" may not be literally true, but may even be truer than that!

Maybe I am reading into your statement to much, but if the creation account is poetic and myth; where did this world come from?
Do you believe that moses literally parted the red sea?
Do you believe Jesus was really walking this Earth?
If so, do you believe in a literal resurrection?

christiansoldier - I feel uncomfortable with the way you apparently use John 14 as a sort of "club" to batter the heads of those who are not explicitly Christian.

I did not see it that way at all. He merely posted scripture...

I am pretty sure that it was never Jesus' intent to have his words (assuming they ARE his words for the sake of this discussion) used in that manner.

What do you base your opinion on? What was Jesus intent here? For the sake of Argument, lets suppose John said it, since he wrote the gospel under the direction of the Holy Spirit, what did John mean?

Frankly, it was this I was referring to in my previous post about being careful about defining too closely who Jesus is for and who he is against.

The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that he never changes, Jesus says you are either with me or your against me...
The bible also says in Joshua, choose this day whom you will serve...
Remember, we are trying to establish what is a Christian here according what the bible teaches...

I can say that FOR ME Jesus is indeed the path and the only path - I would be wary though of using that text as an exercise in being prescriptive for other people who may indeed be on a different path.

The bible says there is only one path to the father and that is through Jesus...Are you saying the bible is wrong?
Are you saying there are others paths to heaven?

Let me tell you an incident in my life, many years ago. I was in a doctor's waiting room and had quite a long wait in the presence of a Sikh gentleman who was also waiting. The conversation turned to religion. The strange thing was that, for a little while, we were talking about "our" God. Yes I know he wasn't a Christian, and I know what the New Testament says (or at least some interpretations of it) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this man "knew God", indeed I suspect that his spirituality may have put my own to shame.

The bible says that there is none that is good, not even one..The bible says we are saved by faith through grace and not by works, lest any man should boast..The bible says we are saved when we are baptized into the body of Christ so that God see the righteousness of Jesus and not us...( NO, I am not talking about water baptism. Water baptism has no power to save) So was this man saved if Jesus was not his savior?

Now, I do not have all the answers to this. I do not know if that man was "saved" (although I don't especially like that word or use it much) but somehow I feel that God would never reject such a patently good and faithful man. God is many things: 'Just' is one of them and I cannot believe he would condemn someone because they were born into a different culture. Even St Paul admits as much when he says in Romans (paraphrasing) that people may well be judged according to the lights of their conscience

I agree to a certain extent, but don't take what the Apostle Paul was saying out of Context..He is speaking of those who have ''never'' heard the Gospel...For example. Everyone in this thread is without excuse, because we have all heard it...So if we choose to reject the Gospel, there is no hope for us according the the scriptures...These are not my opinions..I am passing along what the bible teaches.

It's like the old joke: A man was getting a tour of heaven. St Peter said "Over there ont he left we have the Buddhist community, on your right you will see the Lutherans, straight ahead you will see the Hindus and behind them the Anglicans". "That's great", said the man, "but what is that high wall over there?" St Peter replied "That's where we keep the baptists - they like to think they're the only ones up here".

Cheers
Mike

I believe I will see folks in heaven who I would not have expected to be there and visa versa...
By the way, I am not a baptist. I am guessing your Anglican?

[jgredline]

Javier .. re your question about what "Salvation" means. I tend (myself) not to like the word "saved" or the phrase "born again", NOT (I emphasise) because I dispute the concepts (I don't!), but because they tend to have specific meanings mainly to those of a conservative evangelical stamp. Indeed, you could argue that "born again", in particular, is a phrase that has been hijacked somewhat by that particular churchmanship.

Mike, again I completely disagree. Your statement could not be further from the truth...The bible says: There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Having said all that, I see it as a "process" or a "journey" rather than a destination already arrived at. For the most part, the New Testament uses the word in the continuous sense, ie "I am being saved".

This is correct. Scripture does teach this...However, we can know if we are saved...The bible clearly teaches this....I ,

certainly in my own experience. St Paul too often uses metaphors such as "running a race" etc. which implies an ongoing pilgrimage.

Yes, but what Paul is referring to in this context of finishing the race, he is speaking of his ministry, not his life....

The "journey" motif is very important to my own spiritual experience. Have you ever read "Pilgrims Progress" by John Bunyan?

Yes I have many times and have read it to all my kids as they have grown up...To be perfectly honest, many of your comments are a contradiction to what John Bunyan taught in his book pilgrims progress and others....On a side note, this book is one of the all time greats...I also have it in PDF..If anyone would like to read it, I would be happy to e mail a copy to you. Let me know.

Certainly that book influenced British Christianity a great deal, especially with its theme of the Christian path being a journey toward the Celestial City, rather than an instant arrival. As we travel on the spiritual path, we meet people along the way (indeed, for a little while in the forum we are like travellers who happen to find themselves in conversation on the road), sometimes we take detours and have to find our way back, and sometimes we halt in the road because we are afraid of what lies beyond the next corner. In the end though, it is a journey towards God, realising in our better moments that God himself is not only our destination, but also our companion on the road (cf the Emmaus story).

I can agree with this statement.

It is a process of healing and wholeness (indeed, the word for 'salvation' is related to the root for 'healing'): wholeness between ourselves and God, between ourselves and our neighbours, as well as a wholeness within ourselves - in other words, it is not just about getting a ticket into heaven, but about a restoration of all that was lost in the Fall.

Cheers
Mike

When I studied Greek in Bible college, one of the basic fundamentals was Context...My Final was the Gospel of John. Basically I had to study it word by word, phrase by phrase all in Greek...I also did Romans the same way. It took me two years to go through these fabulous works...I say this not to boast, but to hopefully add some credibility to where I come from from...When my opinion differs from what the Holy Word of God says, I need to accept the fact that I am wrong....If God is not God enough to protect his Holy Book, then he is a pathetically weak god and is not god at all...Having said that, lets take a short look at those words you mentioned...

Salvation in Greek is σωτηρία sōtēria
Healing in Greek is θεραπεύω thĕrapĕuō

While it is true that healing is a distant cousin of Salvation, The NT writers could have chosen a different word if that is what they meant....

[jgredline]

Hi folks,
While I wait for Mike to answer my above questions, I felt the need to explain a few things a little further....The Bible says that there will be others preaching another Jesus...In other words a false Jesus...

2 Co 11:1-4
Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

So Paul is sending out a warning that there will be people preaching another Jesus...So always verify everything with scripture.

John also tells us in his 1 letter.
1 Jn 4:1-6
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

This is just some food for thought.

[Anbesol]

words are still merely a practical utilitarian tool, they cannot be 'perfect' because language itself isn't perfect, and only represents relative concepts. When I say the word 'shoe', do you know if I am refering to a Nike tennis shoe, or a Columbian hiking shoe? What of the details on rubber, leather, or even the elemental compounds? What about the geometrics of the shoe? ... The word 'shoe' is a practical tool to help communicate. No matter how specific and exact I may chose to use language, its still is a relative concept. I could write about the shoe in 1000 pages, detailing it with every science and conceptual application, and it still could not be a 'perfect' explanation as it falls on relativity and subjectivity.

If "God" protects his "Holy book", how come there are specific details within it that contradict each other? Why does Paul state his conversion differently than Luke does in Acts? When was the last supper, since the 4 Gospels have a variation on the specific details? Why is it that Matthew Mark Luke and John describe identical events yet have varieties in the specific details?

Its pretty much a rhetorical question, as I am willing to bet you would only answer them with religious axioms and church dogma.

So Paul is sending out a warning that there will be people preaching another Jesus...So always verify everything with scripture

Ha, was this an accusation? Would you put yourself under this examination?

[christiansoldier]

WOW!!!

It simply AMAZES me what a reaction quoting ONE scripture can bring. My only accompanying comment was "God's Word is very explicit."

From that I get back that I am wielding a club? That I am rude and hateful?



I give you the Apostle Paul. I'd be interested how you would react to his words. Just imagine he has posted this himself.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[jgredline]

words are still merely a practical utilitarian tool, they cannot be 'perfect' because language itself isn't perfect, and only represents relative concepts. When I say the word 'shoe', do you know if I am refering to a Nike tennis shoe, or a Columbian hiking shoe? What of the details on rubber, leather, or even the elemental compounds? What about the geometrics of the shoe? ... The word 'shoe' is a practical tool to help communicate. No matter how specific and exact I may chose to use language, its still is a relative concept. I could write about the shoe in 1000 pages, detailing it with every science and conceptual application, and it still could not be a 'perfect' explanation as it falls on relativity and subjectivity.

If "God" protects his "Holy book", how come there are specific details within it that contradict each other? Why does Paul state his conversion differently than Luke does in Acts? When was the last supper, since the 4 Gospels have a variation on the specific details? Why is it that Matthew Mark Luke and John describe identical events yet have varieties in the specific details?

Its pretty much a rhetorical question, as I am willing to bet you would only answer them with religious axioms and church dogma.


Ha, was this an accusation? Would you put yourself under this examination?

If you give me the verses in question I will be more than happy to answer them. I believe the word of God to be perfect, and while there are many difficulties in it, there are answers...Now weather those answers are what you want to hear is another story in itself...I am not trying to convince you of anything...I am not even offering up my opinions, but simply presenting the simplicity of the scriptures.

As far as accusations go, I accuse no one...May the word of God bring conviction ...If I am teaching falsely, please rebuke me with scripture and not your opinions.....

[Didache]

Javier .. I have been out tonight (a photography thing as it happens) so I won't be able to address any of your questions until tomorrow. But allow me to address just one. I think you misunderstood me on the "born again" thing.

I am prefectly aware of the origins of the phrase - you didn't need to tell me. However it is also true that the phrase is used almost exclusively within the conservative evangelical camp. This is not a judgement on the phrase, just a fact of life. If someone identifies themselves as a "born again Christian" or asks if you are "born again", the odds are pretty overwhelming that they will belong to the conservative end of the spectrum. That and that alone was my point: the reason I don't especially like the phrase is because I do not identify myself with that branch of Christianity. Simple as that.

However, I am also puzzled by your post about preachers of a false Jesus - it seemed an odd and somewhat provocative post at this point.

Cheers
Mike

[Didache]

christiansoldier. I did not call you rude or hateful - in fact I freely acknowledge that you are polite and gracious. I don't know where you got that from.

Mike

[christiansoldier]

christiansoldier. I did not call you rude or hateful - in fact I freely acknowledge that you are polite and gracious. I don't know where you got that from.

Mike

Hi Mike,

No, you did not and thank you.

Yours was the 'club' remark. I grouped two responses together. The other was based on:

Accept that there are cultural diversities, and your tradition is no more holier than theirs. Stop this self pseudo-righteousness. I know you're just simply parroting what your church feeds you, but it is incredibly offensive and repulsive at the same time. Think of it this way - every culture you insult, you are insulting me, every religion you insult, you are insulting me. I don't need to be a practicing hindu or muslim or what have you, for me to be offended by your rudeness and patronizing hatred towards them. Is this what your faith comes to?

(emphasis mine)

[jgredline]

Javier .. I have been out tonight (a photography thing as it happens) so I won't be able to address any of your questions until tomorrow. But allow me to address just one. I think you misunderstood me on the "born again" thing.

Mike, no rush..Do not let this consume you. We have time..

I am prefectly aware of the origins of the phrase - you didn't need to tell me. However it is also true that the phrase is used almost exclusively within the conservative evangelical camp. This is not a judgement on the phrase, just a fact of life. If someone identifies themselves as a "born again Christian" or asks if you are "born again", the odds are pretty overwhelming that they will belong to the conservative end of the spectrum. That and that alone was my point: the reason I don't especially like the phrase is because I do not identify myself with that branch of Christianity. Simple as that.

I suspected that. What branch of Christianity do you associate yourself with?
Please also explain to me Salvation and of course those other questions I asked as well. Universal salvation, Annihalation, all roads lead to heaven,

However, I am also puzzled by your post about preachers of a false Jesus - it seemed an odd and somewhat provocative post at this point.

Cheers
Mike

This was not directed at you specifically. If it was I would have told you straight. I was directing it to all including myself which is why I said, if I am teaching falsely, please correct me with scripture...After all, we are trying to define a Christian based on the Scriptures. I also did not mean to offend you by posting John chapter 3, but I did it for others who are following along...I am well aware your familiar with the scriptures...

Understand however, that Red flags go up when you avoid the simple questions with long drawn out answers that don't answer the questions...

[Anbesol]

Javier - you responded to every single person in the thread, except for me. After you responded to everybody else, you mentioned the 'false jesus' preachers, it seemed quite directed, and I still think you had directed that towards me. No less, you asked, here it is

Javier - the good samaritan story. Jesus clearly illustrates here that its not a matter of which tribe of religion you belong to, but where your heart belongs. The religious leaders in this story had their hearts in the wrong place, so whilst they were icons in their religion, they did not have eternal life. In those days, as you I am sure well aware of, Samaritans were the marginalized fringe religious movement. This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are. The samaritan had his heart in the right place, as was illustrated by his mercy and compassion for the beaten man. Today, he may as well have said 'Buddhist' or 'Hindu' in palce of Samaritan, this is the gravity of his statements. I am perplexed how you can have read this story and still say the things you say. You proclaim that we must follow a certain tradition (your tradition, what a surprise), and profess an exact orthodoxical faith in order to be saved and have eternal life, but Jesus said something quite incredibly different.

And how about Matthew 25:31-46 - 'inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me', the illustration is qutie a far cry from 'because you professed faith in me'. Can a Hindu not be kind to the least of them? Can an atheist not be good to the least of them? Proclaimed faith played no part in this rather vivid illustration. But you would have us believe that its simply professing faith that grants us eternal life. This is something you may be able to twist out of the words of Paul, but you couldn't in a thousand years read such from the words of Christ.

Anticipating you citing John 14:6, lets recognize something first. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but did he say "nobody else is the way, it is exclusively me alone"? No, he didnt! He continues to say "nobody comes to the father but by me", but did he say "you can come to the father by skipping everybody else as well, just not me", in fact, going back to Mt 25, it seems that we need to come by even the very least of them, as by going by the very least of them, we are going by Him. You, Heluvs, and Soldier are making false equivocations out of J 14:6, the most twisted piece of scripture in Christian history. A beautiful verse thats been transformed into a sectarianist emblem of pseudo-self righteousness.

[Anbesol]

Off the subject entirely - I want to point out something I found very funny.

You know the oaths of office, and the oath you take in the court room, "do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth so help you god?"

James 5:12 "Above all things, my brothers, swear not, neither by heaven, by earth, or any other oath. Instead, let your yes be yes, and your no be no, lest you be condemned"

[Loupey]

...This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are...

Thank you, Anbesol, for this clarification. To me, it seems like one’s actions and thoughts are all that should be important - not one's affiliation nor religious education/understanding.

Anyone: Consider an elderly tribesman in the depths of the Amazon jungle who spends his whole life teaching, raising, and healing his clan. Or consider a mother raising a family as best as she can in an impoverished neighborhood on a hillside outside Mexico City. And consider an 18-year-old inner city student who, despite his limited time and resources, does what he can by volunteering at the local shelter. For various reasons, none of these people have stepped foot in a church and have no concept of religion. If they all died tragically this morning, what happens to them?


Anbesol, regarding your earlier post asking, “Are we then, not Animals?” – I say, yes, we certainly are in every sense. Many other species exhibit long and lasting social bonds, communication skills, reasoning abilities, and compassion. Are we any better? In fact, there is no other species more intolerant of other species, the environment, or members of its own species than Man himself.

[Didache]

To answer SOME of the questions:

While I don't especially like labels (which only put people in pigeon holes that don't accurately reflect their views), I suppose I could be described as just a smidgen to the liberal side of centre. Moderate is what some would call me, others would describe me as representing a thoughtful type of Christianity. I would certainly not belong in the fundamentalist camp, but nor would i belong in the ultra-liberal camp. I hope that helps.

Re annihilation/hell/etc - there is a fair bit of biblical material which uses the language of "exclusion" (eg the parable of the foolish virgins, etc) - the concept of "hell" (to use the convenient term) would, to me, speak of exclusion from God - a spiritual darkness if you like. To be where God is not, would be hell to me. This leads on to annihilation which I suppose is the closest to my own view - not to exist at all is the ultimate "being where God is not".

As for "universal salvation" - it would be a nice thing to believe in! In the end though, there will always be those who do not ultimately wish to dwell in goodness and God, I think, would respect that. To "save" even those who did not wish it would be an intrusion into our free will. Having said that, my view of it would certainly be a lot broader than "heaven only contains those who sign up explicitly to Jesus". Bottom line - I think that there will be a lot more in the Kingdom that some of us think. After all, God is merciful and forgiving and who knows what a person's response will be when face to face with him? That is not saying that (in your phrase) "all roads lead to heaven" - but it is saying, maybe, that God sees the roads we travel on a little more clearly than we do.

That will do for now
Mike

[christiansoldier]

Javier - you responded to every single person in the thread, except for me.

Not so... scroll up...you will see the following was in response to your post.

If you give me the verses in question I will be more than happy to answer them. I believe the word of God to be perfect, and while there are many difficulties in it, there are answers...Now weather those answers are what you want to hear is another story in itself...I am not trying to convince you of anything...I am not even offering up my opinions, but simply presenting the simplicity of the scriptures.

As far as accusations go, I accuse no one...May the word of God bring conviction ...If I am teaching falsely, please rebuke me with scripture and not your opinions.....

[jgredline]

Javier - you responded to every single person in the thread, except for me. After you responded to everybody else, you mentioned the 'false jesus' preachers, it seemed quite directed, and I still think you had directed that towards me. No less, you asked, here it is

Anbesol, I did respond to you. Perhaps you missed it...But let me be clear...Your position is very well known as you yourself have stated you are of many religions...Clearly you are not a Christian according to the Holy Word of God....According to your beliefs it has mistakes and no Child of God according to the 66 books of the bible would believe it contains errors..The bible says 2 tim 2:16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

Javier - the good samaritan story. Jesus clearly illustrates here that its not a matter of which tribe of religion you belong to, but where your heart belongs. The religious leaders in this story had their hearts in the wrong place, so whilst they were icons in their religion, they did not have eternal life. In those days, as you I am sure well aware of, Samaritans were the marginalized fringe religious movement. This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are. The samaritan had his heart in the right place, as was illustrated by his mercy and compassion for the beaten man. Today, he may as well have said 'Buddhist' or 'Hindu' in palce of Samaritan, this is the gravity of his statements. I am perplexed how you can have read this story and still say the things you say. You proclaim that we must follow a certain tradition (your tradition, what a surprise), and profess an exact orthodoxical faith in order to be saved and have eternal life, but Jesus said something quite incredibly different.

And how about Matthew 25:31-46 - 'inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me', the illustration is qutie a far cry from 'because you professed faith in me'. Can a Hindu not be kind to the least of them? Can an atheist not be good to the least of them? Proclaimed faith played no part in this rather vivid illustration. But you would have us believe that its simply professing faith that grants us eternal life. This is something you may be able to twist out of the words of Paul, but you couldn't in a thousand years read such from the words of Christ.

Anticipating you citing John 14:6, lets recognize something first. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but did he say "nobody else is the way, it is exclusively me alone"? No, he didnt! He continues to say "nobody comes to the father but by me", but did he say "you can come to the father by skipping everybody else as well, just not me", in fact, going back to Mt 25, it seems that we need to come by even the very least of them, as by going by the very least of them, we are going by Him. You, Heluvs, and Soldier are making false equivocations out of J 14:6, the most twisted piece of scripture in Christian history. A beautiful verse thats been transformed into a sectarianist emblem of pseudo-self righteousness.

I will comeback and answer your misunderstandings, but I am going to start with John 14:6..Mike as a minister, I would like your opinion on my exegesis of John 14:6 and anyone else who wishes to tackle it...
I do my own work, so I do know what I am talking about....

[christiansoldier]

Javier - the good samaritan story. Jesus clearly illustrates here that its not a matter of which tribe of religion you belong to, but where your heart belongs. The religious leaders in this story had their hearts in the wrong place, so whilst they were icons in their religion, they did not have eternal life. In those days, as you I am sure well aware of, Samaritans were the marginalized fringe religious movement. This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are. The samaritan had his heart in the right place, as was illustrated by his mercy and compassion for the beaten man. Today, he may as well have said 'Buddhist' or 'Hindu' in palce of Samaritan, this is the gravity of his statements. I am perplexed how you can have read this story and still say the things you say. You proclaim that we must follow a certain tradition (your tradition, what a surprise), and profess an exact orthodoxical faith in order to be saved and have eternal life, but Jesus said something quite incredibly different.

And how about Matthew 25:31-46 - 'inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me', the illustration is qutie a far cry from 'because you professed faith in me'. Can a Hindu not be kind to the least of them? Can an atheist not be good to the least of them? Proclaimed faith played no part in this rather vivid illustration. But you would have us believe that its simply professing faith that grants us eternal life. This is something you may be able to twist out of the words of Paul, but you couldn't in a thousand years read such from the words of Christ.

Anticipating you citing John 14:6, lets recognize something first. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but did he say "nobody else is the way, it is exclusively me alone"? No, he didnt! He continues to say "nobody comes to the father but by me", but did he say "you can come to the father by skipping everybody else as well, just not me", in fact, going back to Mt 25, it seems that we need to come by even the very least of them, as by going by the very least of them, we are going by Him. You, Heluvs, and Soldier are making false equivocations out of J 14:6, the most twisted piece of scripture in Christian history. A beautiful verse thats been transformed into a sectarianist emblem of pseudo-self righteousness.

Firstly, the Good Samaritan story was Jesus' response to a Lawyer who was seeking to trip Jesus up and tempted Him:

"saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?

He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?

And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.

And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?"

And Jesus proceeded to tell the story, the bottom line being that 'he who showed mercy' to the man was the good neighbor and that the lawyer should do likewise.

I ask you, is being a good neighbor or, from your other illustration, being good to the least of them, a scriptural answer to the question of salvation? From both a Christian and humanist view, being kind, loving and compassionate are, indeed great things! BUT note that loving thy neighbor is only part of the answer, the greater part being Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind

It is not our righteous acts that save!

Titus 3:

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

6 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour;

7 That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.

[jgredline]

John 14:6 will be the verse I will be expounding on, but in order to see the context, I will be starting from John 14:1....I am using the NKJV so that we will have as close to the TR1550 Greek manuscripts that these scriptures where originally penned with....How ever, I am also open to the KJV, ESV OR NAS, but I will be using the TR1550 Greek manuscripts....

“Let not your heart be troubled; you believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 In My Father’s house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also. 4 And where I go you know, and the way you know.”
5 Thomas said to Him, “Lord, we do not know where You are going, and how can we know the way?”
6 Jesus said to him, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.
7 “If you had known Me, you would have known My Father also; and from now on you know Him and have seen Him.”

So lets take a very close at what Jesus said and meant in John 14:6
To be clear, this is from the

TR1550 λεγει αυτω ο ιησους εγω ειμι η οδος και η αληθεια και η ζωη ουδεις ερχεται προς τον πατερα ει μη δι εμου
I will break it down word for word paying close attention to the grammar.
TR 1550
λεγει αυτω [says to him]

ο [The original Greek has a definite article here... This conjunction makes the following statement emphatic]

ιησους [Jesus is speaking here.The context prior and after supports this]

εγω ειμι [I am....This is the 6th time that Jesus used the ''I AM'' statement..In all he uses it 7 times..This statement would have been seen as blasphemous to the jews]

η οδος [The way..Again the ''definate article precedes the noun ''way'' Jesus is making an emphatic statement...]

και η αληθεια [and the truth..Again another definite article making this statement emphatic]

και η ζωη [and the life..again another definite article and another emphatic statement]

ουδεις [no one...This adjective is used in the masculine sense. This makes this emphatic..It means NO ONE]

ερχεται προς τον πατερα[comes to the father...Again the verb precedes the definite article, making this statement emphatic...]

ει μη δι εμου [but by me...Jesus could not be more clear and there is no question that this verse says what it means and it means what it says...]

[jgredline]

J

Anticipating you citing John 14:6, lets recognize something first. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but did he say "nobody else is the way, it is exclusively me alone"? No, he didnt! He continues to say "nobody comes to the father but by me", but did he say "you can come to the father by skipping everybody else as well, just not me", in fact, going back to Mt 25, it seems that we need to come by even the very least of them, as by going by the very least of them, we are going by Him. You, Heluvs, and Soldier are making false equivocations out of J 14:6, the most twisted piece of scripture in Christian history. A beautiful verse thats been transformed into a sectarianist emblem of pseudo-self righteousness.

Enbesol, according the Bible you are wrong...Jesus was emphatic in saying he is the only way to the father [I AM THE WAY]as I have proved above...You are wrong my friend...

[christiansoldier]

salvation is a really interesting term as it is misused both inclusively and exclusively.

How so? I'd be interested to hear more on this comment.

[jgredline]

And how about Matthew 25:31-46 - 'inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me', the illustration is qutie a far cry from 'because you professed faith in me'. Can a Hindu not be kind to the least of them? Can an atheist not be good to the least of them? Proclaimed faith played no part in this rather vivid illustration. But you would have us believe that its simply professing faith that grants us eternal life. This is something you may be able to twist out of the words of Paul, but you couldn't in a thousand years read such from the words of Christ.

I find it interesting that many folks who are liberals or liberal in theology always want to quote Jesus and not paul...I find it ironic that people always throw out the love the neighbor as your self verse, but forget the love your God part...It is also interesting to me that Jesus spoke more of HELL than heaven and Paul spoke more of Heaven than hell...

OK, Lets take a look at what Jesus said here....I am so glad you brought this up as it will serve to kill two birds with one stone....This passage also prove annihilation to be false teaching...
Mt 25:31-46
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
.
Verses 31 -33 is speaking of Gentiles when it says nations.....Here the Lord Jesus Christ makes it clear that there are sheep (Chrstians, those who are his) and Goats, (those who are children of the devil) Notice there is NONE in the middle..We are all either sheep or goats...
Verses 34-40 Jesus has been described as Son of Man and his judgment of the nations / gentiles and has been described like a Shepard. But here he speaks as the king who determines who will enter his Kingdom... He speaks first to the sheep on his right hand (Christians) and announces that they, whom the Father has blessed through him, will inherit the Kingdom of God due to their merciful ministry to him when he was hungry, thirsty, homeless, naked, and imprisoned...
Lord, when did we ever see you hungry? When the righteous folks professed surprise and ignorance, Jesus announced that it was done for him when it was done for one of his little brothers.
The bible also says Mt 7:21-23 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. 22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’ 23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’ These would be the goats....The preparation of the Kingdom for the blessed ones in 25:34 should be contrasted with the preparation of eternal fire for the devil, his demons and the goats...
Verses 41-45 ..Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. These verses are exactly symmetrical with 25:34–40, but those on the King’s left are told to depart into eternal fire to burn in hell in torment for all eternity... Notice that eternal fire is not prepared for those on the king’s left (the sheep) but for the devil, his demons and his goats.
Verse 46 This is straight forward... the goats will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous sheep will go into eternal life. Notice that The gravity of this judgment is stressed by the repetition of the word “eternal.” ....

I will be addressing your and Mikes other posts tomorrow. But I do want to leave you ''FOLKS'' with a nugget and something to Ponder...

When you read the bible from the beginning starting in Genesis, Notice that the first ? mark you come across is Gen 3...Now the serpent was more cunning than any beast of the field which the Lord God had made. And he said to the woman, “Has God indeed said, ‘You shall not eat of every tree of the garden’?”
Notice that it is the devil himself who first questions the word of God...He has been doing it from the beginning and continues to do it this very day....

[Skyman]

That is really simple.
Many people hold beliefs that they feel grant them access to salvation. They extend that thought possibly not intentionally but to the effect of "If your beliefs are not the same as mine then you are not saved" or conversely "we both are righteous people and therefore we are saved" (and the logical extension here is that others are not)

I had intended here to add references to the Samaritan parable as above, however I feel that to use scripture as a weapon like that is to undermine Gods words. They have meaning to me in the context of my own spiritual journey. My interpretation is exactly that. I believe that the Bible means to use each time we read it no more or less than what God intends us to learn. to apply our learning to others implies that we can hold ourselves to act as God. certainly we can suggest that people read this or that section, but we must allow them to take from this reading what they can, not what we will.

Gods greatest gift to mankind was free will. without it certainly we would not have partaken of the apple and yet to deny that will is to deny our humanity. To attempt to impose your will on others is also to deny their humanity.

[christiansoldier]

That is really simple.
Many people hold beliefs that they feel grant them access to salvation. They extend that thought possibly not intentionally but to the effect of "If your beliefs are not the same as mine then you are not saved" or conversely "we both are righteous people and therefore we are saved" (and the logical extension here is that others are not)

I had intended here to add references to the Samaritan parable as above, however I feel that to use scripture as a weapon like that is to undermine Gods words. They have meaning to me in the context of my own spiritual journey. My interpretation is exactly that. I believe that the Bible means to use each time we read it no more or less than what God intends us to learn. to apply our learning to others implies that we can hold ourselves to act as God. certainly we can suggest that people read this or that section, but we must allow them to take from this reading what they can, not what we will.

Gods greatest gift to mankind was free will. without it certainly we would not have partaken of the apple and yet to deny that will is to deny our humanity. To attempt to impose your will on others is also to deny their humanity.

Thank you for your response, Skyman.

While I understand what you are saying, I think it should be noted that it is not 'my' beliefs nor 'Christian' beliefs that determine salvation, but God's Word. Certainly there are sections of the NT which are difficult at times to fathom, and doctrinal issues (including free will) that have been debated for centuries. However, it is with good reason that John 3:16 is probably the most cited verse in scripture. It requires no interpretation.

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. For God sent not his son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

As far as using God's Word as a weapon, well, that is what it is, really.

Ephesians 6:

11 Put on the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to stand against the wiles of the devil.

12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.

13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.

14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;

15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;

16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.

17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:

18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints; 19 And for me, that utterance may be given unto me, that I may open my mouth boldly, to make known the mystery of the gospel,

20 For which I am an ambassador in bonds: that therein I may speak boldly, as I ought to speak.

Javier has already raised this point, but in light of your statements, I think it bears repeating:

2 Timothy 2:

16 All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness, 
17 that the man of God may be complete, thoroughly equipped for every good work.

[Anbesol]

Prepare for wind, and a long explanation, I will tackle the dynamics of this argument and come in at every angle, to vividly illustrate the depths of your fallacious equivocations and insinuations.

Look, Javier, I don't just submit to authority, so I don't care if the bible would say such nonsense, if it DID say it, than the bible is flawed. If someone says "Bow to my authority or go to hell", I will politely request said authority to sit and spin, no matter who it is. Nobody can demand their own authority upon me, if I submit to someones authority, it will be out of respect and agreement, not out of religious axioms, fear and emotional manipulation. As I stated before, fortunately for my enjoyment of its reading, I dont think the bible says such small-minded ethnocentric nonsense. Let me just rebuke a single statement you made, and you'll see how the rest of your argument crumbles.

[I am....This is the 6th time that Jesus used the ''I AM'' statement..In all he uses it 7 times..This statement would have been seen as blasphemous to the jews

They also appear all 7 times exclusively in John, and not once in any other gospel, even including the many (known) non canonized accounts. I've already demonstrated 14:6 as historically inaccurate by the contemporary espousal to the Thomasine camp developments, and the sectarianism between John/Thomas apostleship of the latter half of the first century. Obviously, Jesus didn't say this, because he couldn't see the unwritten future, if you believe in free will - than you recognize it as impossible for Jesus to have foreseen this contemporary development. Further, the "I am" statements are unique to John, the saying of such statements WOULD be seen as blasphemous, you are right. So if he DID say them, than they would certainly have been remembered. It is not like Matthew Mark or Luke didn't want to portray him as blasphemous, they portrayed him doing many other things the Jews considered blasphemous, ex: taking in and protecting a prostitute. Mt Mk Lk didn't omit something he said, he simply didn't say it.

As you may also know, most Jewish/Christians first practiced within Jewish synagogues, and many were often humiliated, excommunicated, embarassed and culturally 'hung' as a result. First century synagogues did not often take kindly to the 'Christians', who, at that time, were Jew's who simply accepted Jesus as the Messiah. This inner Jewish/Christian struggle was something that made massive developments in the latter half of the first century. The portrayal of Jesus exclusively within the John Gospel is the characterization of someone espoused to this treatment of early Christians in synagogues. Jesus couldn't have said something in the year ~30 c.e. that has a direct correlation to something of 60-90 c.e. The fact of the matter is that, by all textual criticisms, it is an impossible stretch of any sound reason to assume that Jesus historically said such things, unless you invoke some magic time travel theory. Those 'I am' statements, his saying 'You are of your father, the devil', his rebuking Thomas, amongst other unique and specific details in John are in fact historically inaccurate. The 14:6 portrayal is demonstrated historically accurate by multiple contemporary angles even.

I repeat, I don't say this with the intention to discredit the value and merit of the John Gospel, I personally love the John gospel, I regard its spirit and poetry as a beautiful insight into the depths of truth. But, we need to see the mysticism of it, and be real about it. We don't need to fool ourselves into absolute submission into blind obedience of a language manipulated orthodoxy. Besides, Jesus says in it, "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but you still can't source me where he says "every other tribe is wrong", you can try and manipulate the intent of the language all you want by creating these pseudo-theories about use of a 2000 year old language, but your clutching to straws. And I have already sourced you to where he says quite the opposite anyway, both Matthew 25:31~, and Luke 10:25~. So, if he did say what you think he says, than he contradicts himself. Could a perfect god-man do such a thing?

You obviously know that the first 3 Gospels, Mt Mk and Lk, are regarded by nearly every academic camp as having earlier written origins than John. They are also all 3 titled under the sub genre of Gospels as 'Synoptic'. John is a gospel that stands alone however. 'Synoptic' means 'seeing together'. Anybody whos read the first 3 recognize an almost identical storyline, philosophy, methedology, sacrament, and event detailing of events. John stands alone as the one who calls the Son of Man, the 'Lamb of God', portrays him saying 'I am', and so forth. Jesus was very different in John than he was in the other 3 canonized accounts. This says quite a bit, try asserting your Jesus orthodoxy without invoking Johonine scripture, try it on the synoptic texts - it wont work, not even your clever manipulation of language could twist Jesus words into such from the Synoptic accounts.

I am not the same thoughtless fool who you can convert by manipulating my mortal fears with ideas, I have faced my death before, and I can face it again. Compared to death, your puny threats of 'follow my tradition or else' is a joke, its a laugh, its pathetic and its sad. I don't cling to mortal fears because I can embrace my own mortality. You are continuing a tradition which prays on mortal anxieties, and it WILL NOT WORK ON ME. I am almost sorry to be so direct and critical, but at the same time you are continuing a tradition that is demonstrably socially destructive, divisive, and consequentially, though I am sure much of the offense you give was unintended, the things you say are still quite incredibly offensive. Try being just a little bit sensitive to cultural diversity.