What is a Christian?

[Solo]

Love thy neighbor as you would thyself

QED

There is a big big difference between proclaiming "I believe Jesus is the path to Salvation" and saying "you are going to hell as you don't believe what I do."

Interfaith dialogue can never be allowed to take a "my belief is better than yours approach" Jesus would not do that. Jesus didn't tell the apostles to drop their belief structures overnight. He showed them Love and said follow me. That is also what we must do.

I obviously read that passage very very differently than you do and this is a big issue with scripture. my interpretation of the whole verse - I try not to take these things out of context, would be: I am sending you out to continue my work. you already know the nice stuff about loving thy neighbor and healing the sick, but let me tell you it is going to be hard work. People won't like your ideas, people will hate you and argue amongst themselves about what you have to say.

Remember most of Jesus' teaching was in parables. This obviously isn't a parable but I believe Jesus is "steeling his disciples" for a lifetime of hard work.

Let me ask you Mr Soldier

Do you own anything more than the clothes on your back?
Do you have a bank account?

How then would you interpret Mathew 10: 9-10?

9 "Don't take any money with you.

10 Don't carry a traveler's bag with an extra coat and sandals or even a walking stick. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

The Bible is a way to understand God's word, but it was written in God's language not ours yes it is the literal word of God but I doubt (although who am I to say I understand Gods ways) that we are meant to take it literally. - I too can selectively pick and choose Gods words to suit my own ends.

I believe this thread was supposed to be about sharing our beliefs in a positive non judgmental way. I hope that it remains so.

If I may shed some light on this particular topic speaking of believing in Jesus for salvation and what dictates the ultimate judgment of hell.

Jesus speaks clearly and plainly to us in John 3 when he states that God did not send His son to "condemn" the world, but to "save" the world. Jesus then proceeds to explain that unless an individual is born of the physical flesh AND of the spiritual Spirit, he/she would not enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus teaches that those in the world are "condemned" already, and that by coming to the light and believing we can be "saved". He continues to teach that those who come to the LIGHT and believe are not condemned, but that those who reject the light in exchange for darkness will remain in their condemation.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:15-21 KJV

Therefore, according to Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, those who believe in HIM will not perish but will have eternal life. Again, those who come to the light and believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned, but those who refuse to come out of the darkness into the light are condemned already.

[Anbesol]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

If your view of scripture is that it is flawed, it will serve no purpose to direct you to the scripture which you claim does not exist.

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

After thinking about this, I decided I could not let this stand, if not for your benefit, then for the benefit of someone else, perhaps.

God's Word is quite explicit:

John 14:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

As for the Good Samaritan...you tell me...did his compassion earn him salvation?

[jgredline]

Folks,
What are your opinions on what Salvation means?
How does one ''get saved'' or some use the word ''Born Again''?
Since this thread is ''What is a Christian?'' and we can see from scripture that I presented earlier that a Christian is a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ; we need to see how those Christians where saved (Born again)..

Comments.

[Anbesol]

I think I need to explain myself a bit for anybody to even begin to understand me or what I am saying -

I grew up an atheist, I never was influenced by any church to feel one way or another, because I was never part of any church. And my family grew to be incredibly diverse, believe it or not, of the 6 people in my family, we have

1 - Mormon
1 - Evangelical
1 - Atheist
1 - Spiritual new age (hard to define ;))
1 - Buddhist/Gnostic Christian (me)
1 - Religiously diverse/moderate

I actually really thought very little of Christ, as I was quite repulsed by his mainstream followers, until I read the Gospel of Thomas verse 3 -

If those who lead you say to you 'the Kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky will precede you', if they say 'the Kingdom is in the sea', then the fish precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside and outside of us all, when you come to know yourself you will be known, and you will realize it is you who are the elect of the living father. But if you do not know your self then you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty.

A beautifully crafted verse, it resonated with me intensely, and opened my eyes and ears to Christs ministry. I had been so frustrated with the mainstream church shouting about the kingdom, to me it was exactly like they were saying 'look up in the sky, its the kingdom, and only we can get you there' (like what 'heluvsyou' and 'christiansoldier' are doing right now). He says the same thing in Luke as well, a canonized account, paralleling it to a T, yet structuring the statement much more mystically. Luke 17:21-23

The kingdom of God comes not by observation. Neither shall they say, 'lo, the kingdom is here! or lo, it is there. For behold! the kingdom of God is within you. [...] the days will come, when you desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and you will not see it. And they will say to you 'see, here, or see, there', do not follow or go after them'

Since then, I have read the Entire New Testament, and much of the old, I've read the Gospels many times over, I simply cannot get enough of them, and I'm filled with joy just to see such beautiful words come together. But I see a serious disconnect between the principles being taught in the bible, and the application of them in the church. I am positively perplexed at times how people can associate the bible with their church, often times it seems so distant that I think the bible has become nothing more than a symbol of power and authority for them, an ornamental symbol of their spiritual narcissism. And ultimately, I do not care to appear a 'true christian' to anybody, I only want to be totally honest with myself and others, to reside with and embody God, and to love. People can think I am a jar of mayonaise or a baked potato for all I care, I simply do not care about that.

And yes, I am a religious hybrid, Buddhist/Christian, I have my cake and I eat it too. No, there is absolutely no conflict between the two. Please try to look beneath the surface of it all, if I had the time, resources and stamina, I would be a Sufi Muslim Christian Shinto Buddhist Hindu monk all in one, exploring diversity is not bad, and just because things are diverse does not mean 'one is right and one is wrong'. To assume as much requires an ethnocentric arrogance of epic proportions.

[Skyman]

I call myself Christian, or Roman Catholic to be precise, however I take a Descartes approach to religion.

I believe in a benevolent omnipotent being - I choose to call God.

By my own concept of God I can not possibly comprehend the entirety of God or God's nature.

I believe that God expresses to us as much of God's nature as we as individuals can understand.

How can I judge someone based on my understanding of the unknowable?

Who am I to say that another person's understanding isn't more accurate than mine?

Therefore: my understanding of God helps me to be a better person. My belief structures have proposed concepts of heaven and hell. by my own admission these may not be correct but they improve my life. The same goes for all other belief structures including atheism and agnosticism.

This may be heretical and will probably affront people who would dispute my claim to being Christian.

some important caveats:

I Love my concept of God and Jesus etc

I choose to share that love with as many people as possible.

if their response to my understanding has no greater or lesser significance than their own understanding. If they reject my beliefs it is possible that they aren't ready to know God the way I do, or they already know God better than I do irrespective of their religion.

Now for all the Christians who don't like what I have just written:

I do believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and as part of the Holy Trinity actually God incarnate. I do believe in the Crucifixion death and resurrection.

now why would that compel me to damn others and or ram my beliefs down their throats.?

[Didache]

Quite a few big questions being raised here! Too many to address them all in any depth, or even at all. But, just a few points:

Javier - not I don't believe in a "gap theory" - I just don't read the creation account in any sense literally, but poetically and mythically (in the proper sense of myth). There is huge truth in it, but truth comes in other forms than literal. "My love is like a red, red rose" may not be literally true, but may even be truer than that!

christiansoldier - I feel uncomfortable with the way you apparently use John 14 as a sort of "club" to batter the heads of those who are not explicitly Christian. I am pretty sure that it was never Jesus' intent to have his words (assuming they ARE his words for the sake of this discussion) used in that manner. Frankly, it was this I was referring to in my previous post about being careful about defining too closely who Jesus is for and who he is against. I can say that FOR ME Jesus is indeed the path and the only path - I would be wary though of using that text as an exercise in being prescriptive for other people who may indeed be on a different path.

Let me tell you an incident in my life, many years ago. I was in a doctor's waiting room and had quite a long wait in the presence of a Sikh gentleman who was also waiting. The conversation turned to religion. The strange thing was that, for a little while, we were talking about "our" God. Yes I know he wasn't a Christian, and I know what the New Testament says (or at least some interpretations of it) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this man "knew God", indeed I suspect that his spirituality may have put my own to shame.

Now, I do not have all the answers to this. I do not know if that man was "saved" (although I don't especially like that word or use it much) but somehow I feel that God would never reject such a patently good and faithful man. God is many things: 'Just' is one of them and I cannot believe he would condemn someone because they were born into a different religious culture. Even St Paul admits as much when he says in Romans (paraphrasing) that people may well be judged according to the lights of their conscience.

It's like the old joke: A man was getting a tour of heaven. St Peter said "Over there on the left we have the Buddhist community, on your right you will see the Lutherans, straight ahead you will see the Hindus and behind them the Anglicans". "That's great", said the man, "but what is that high wall over there?" St Peter replied "That's where we keep the baptists - they like to think they're the only ones up here".

Cheers
Mike

[Didache]

Javier .. re your question about what "Salvation" means. I tend (myself) not to like the word "saved" or the phrase "born again", NOT (I emphasise) because I dispute the concepts (I don't!), but because they tend to have specific meanings mainly to those of a conservative evangelical stamp. Indeed, you could argue that "born again", in particular, is a phrase that has been hijacked somewhat by that particular churchmanship.

Having said all that, I see it as a "process" or a "journey" rather than a destination already arrived at. For the most part, the New Testament uses the word in the continuous sense, ie "I am being saved". I think that's accurate, certainly in my own experience. St Paul too often uses metaphors such as "running a race" etc. which implies an ongoing pilgrimage.

The "journey" motif is very important to my own spiritual experience. Have you ever read "Pilgrims Progress" by John Bunyan? Certainly that book influenced British Christianity a great deal, especially with its theme of the Christian path being a journey toward the Celestial City, rather than an instant arrival. As we travel on the spiritual path, we meet people along the way (indeed, for a little while in the forum we are like travellers who happen to find themselves in conversation on the road), sometimes we take detours and have to find our way back, and sometimes we halt in the road because we are afraid of what lies beyond the next corner. In the end though, it is a journey towards God, realising in our better moments that God himself is not only our destination, but also our companion on the road (cf the Emmaus story).

It is a process of healing and wholeness (indeed, the word for 'salvation' is related to the root for 'healing'): wholeness between ourselves and God, between ourselves and our neighbours, as well as a wholeness within ourselves - in other words, it is not just about getting a ticket into heaven, but about a restoration of all that was lost in the Fall.

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

Javier .. re your question about what "Salvation" means. I tend (myself) not to like the word "saved" or the phrase "born again", NOT (I emphasise) because I dispute the concepts (I don't!), but because they tend to have specific meanings mainly to those of a conservative evangelical stamp. Indeed, you could argue that "born again", in particular, is a phrase that has been hijacked somewhat by that particular churchmanship.

Mike, again I completely disagree. Your statement could not be further from the truth...The bible says: There was a man of the Pharisees named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews. 2 This man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, “Rabbi, we know that You are a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him.”
3 Jesus answered and said to him, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.”
4 Nicodemus said to Him, “How can a man be born when he is old? Can he enter a second time into his mother’s womb and be born?”
5 Jesus answered, “Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not marvel that I said to you, ‘You must be born again.’ 8 The wind blows where it wishes, and you hear the sound of it, but cannot tell where it comes from and where it goes. So is everyone who is born of the Spirit.”
9 Nicodemus answered and said to Him, “How can these things be?”
10 Jesus answered and said to him, “Are you the teacher of Israel, and do not know these things? 11 Most assuredly, I say to you, We speak what We know and testify what We have seen, and you do not receive Our witness. 12 If I have told you earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things? 13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven. 14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, 15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. 17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.
18 “He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”

Having said all that, I see it as a "process" or a "journey" rather than a destination already arrived at. For the most part, the New Testament uses the word in the continuous sense, ie "I am being saved".

This is correct. Scripture does teach this...However, we can know if we are saved...The bible clearly teaches this....I ,

certainly in my own experience. St Paul too often uses metaphors such as "running a race" etc. which implies an ongoing pilgrimage.

Yes, but what Paul is referring to in this context of finishing the race, he is speaking of his ministry, not his life....

The "journey" motif is very important to my own spiritual experience. Have you ever read "Pilgrims Progress" by John Bunyan?

Yes I have many times and have read it to all my kids as they have grown up...To be perfectly honest, many of your comments are a contradiction to what John Bunyan taught in his book pilgrims progress and others....On a side note, this book is one of the all time greats...I also have it in PDF..If anyone would like to read it, I would be happy to e mail a copy to you. Let me know.

Certainly that book influenced British Christianity a great deal, especially with its theme of the Christian path being a journey toward the Celestial City, rather than an instant arrival. As we travel on the spiritual path, we meet people along the way (indeed, for a little while in the forum we are like travellers who happen to find themselves in conversation on the road), sometimes we take detours and have to find our way back, and sometimes we halt in the road because we are afraid of what lies beyond the next corner. In the end though, it is a journey towards God, realising in our better moments that God himself is not only our destination, but also our companion on the road (cf the Emmaus story).

I can agree with this statement.

It is a process of healing and wholeness (indeed, the word for 'salvation' is related to the root for 'healing'): wholeness between ourselves and God, between ourselves and our neighbours, as well as a wholeness within ourselves - in other words, it is not just about getting a ticket into heaven, but about a restoration of all that was lost in the Fall.

Cheers
Mike

When I studied Greek in Bible college, one of the basic fundamentals was Context...My Final was the Gospel of John. Basically I had to study it word by word, phrase by phrase all in Greek...I also did Romans the same way. It took me two years to go through these fabulous works...I say this not to boast, but to hopefully add some credibility to where I come from from...When my opinion differs from what the Holy Word of God says, I need to accept the fact that I am wrong....If God is not God enough to protect his Holy Book, then he is a pathetically weak god and is not god at all...Having said that, lets take a short look at those words you mentioned...

Salvation in Greek is σωτηρία sōtēria
Healing in Greek is θεραπεύω thĕrapĕuō

While it is true that healing is a distant cousin of Salvation, The NT writers could have chosen a different word if that is what they meant....

[christiansoldier]

WOW!!!

It simply AMAZES me what a reaction quoting ONE scripture can bring. My only accompanying comment was "God's Word is very explicit."

From that I get back that I am wielding a club? That I am rude and hateful?



I give you the Apostle Paul. I'd be interested how you would react to his words. Just imagine he has posted this himself.

Romans 1

1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God,

2 (Which he had promised afore by his prophets in the holy scriptures,)

3 Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh;

4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:

5 By whom we have received grace and apostleship, for obedience to the faith among all nations, for his name:

6 Among whom are ye also the called of Jesus Christ:

7 To all that be in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father, and the Lord Jesus Christ.

8 First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.

9 For God is my witness, whom I serve with my spirit in the gospel of his Son, that without ceasing I make mention of you always in my prayers;

10 Making request, if by any means now at length I might have a prosperous journey by the will of God to come unto you.

11 For I long to see you, that I may impart unto you some spiritual gift, to the end ye may be established;

12 That is, that I may be comforted together with you by the mutual faith both of you and me.

13 Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles.

14 I am debtor both to the Greeks, and to the Barbarians; both to the wise, and to the unwise.

15 So, as much as in me is, I am ready to preach the gospel to you that are at Rome also.

16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.

17 For therein is the righteousness of God revealed from faith to faith: as it is written, The just shall live by faith.

18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness;

19 Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them.

20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:

21 Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.

22 Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools,

23 And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things.

24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

29 Being filled with all unrighteousness, fornication, wickedness, covetousness, maliciousness; full of envy, murder, debate, deceit, malignity; whisperers,

30 Backbiters, haters of God, despiteful, proud, boasters, inventors of evil things, disobedient to parents,

31 Without understanding, covenantbreakers, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:

32 Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

[jgredline]

Quite a few big questions being raised here! Too many to address them all in any depth, or even at all. But, just a few points:

Maybe so, but they are very important questions...
I really would like to know if you hold to Annihilation?
If you believe that all roads lead to heaven?
Do you believe their are mistake in the bible?

Javier - not I don't believe in a "gap theory" - I just don't read the creation account in any sense literally, but poetically and mythically (in the proper sense of myth). There is huge truth in it, but truth comes in other forms than literal. "My love is like a red, red rose" may not be literally true, but may even be truer than that!

Maybe I am reading into your statement to much, but if the creation account is poetic and myth; where did this world come from?
Do you believe that moses literally parted the red sea?
Do you believe Jesus was really walking this Earth?
If so, do you believe in a literal resurrection?

christiansoldier - I feel uncomfortable with the way you apparently use John 14 as a sort of "club" to batter the heads of those who are not explicitly Christian.

I did not see it that way at all. He merely posted scripture...

I am pretty sure that it was never Jesus' intent to have his words (assuming they ARE his words for the sake of this discussion) used in that manner.

What do you base your opinion on? What was Jesus intent here? For the sake of Argument, lets suppose John said it, since he wrote the gospel under the direction of the Holy Spirit, what did John mean?

Frankly, it was this I was referring to in my previous post about being careful about defining too closely who Jesus is for and who he is against.

The bible says that God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, that he never changes, Jesus says you are either with me or your against me...
The bible also says in Joshua, choose this day whom you will serve...
Remember, we are trying to establish what is a Christian here according what the bible teaches...

I can say that FOR ME Jesus is indeed the path and the only path - I would be wary though of using that text as an exercise in being prescriptive for other people who may indeed be on a different path.

The bible says there is only one path to the father and that is through Jesus...Are you saying the bible is wrong?
Are you saying there are others paths to heaven?

Let me tell you an incident in my life, many years ago. I was in a doctor's waiting room and had quite a long wait in the presence of a Sikh gentleman who was also waiting. The conversation turned to religion. The strange thing was that, for a little while, we were talking about "our" God. Yes I know he wasn't a Christian, and I know what the New Testament says (or at least some interpretations of it) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this man "knew God", indeed I suspect that his spirituality may have put my own to shame.

The bible says that there is none that is good, not even one..The bible says we are saved by faith through grace and not by works, lest any man should boast..The bible says we are saved when we are baptized into the body of Christ so that God see the righteousness of Jesus and not us...( NO, I am not talking about water baptism. Water baptism has no power to save) So was this man saved if Jesus was not his savior?

Now, I do not have all the answers to this. I do not know if that man was "saved" (although I don't especially like that word or use it much) but somehow I feel that God would never reject such a patently good and faithful man. God is many things: 'Just' is one of them and I cannot believe he would condemn someone because they were born into a different culture. Even St Paul admits as much when he says in Romans (paraphrasing) that people may well be judged according to the lights of their conscience

I agree to a certain extent, but don't take what the Apostle Paul was saying out of Context..He is speaking of those who have ''never'' heard the Gospel...For example. Everyone in this thread is without excuse, because we have all heard it...So if we choose to reject the Gospel, there is no hope for us according the the scriptures...These are not my opinions..I am passing along what the bible teaches.

It's like the old joke: A man was getting a tour of heaven. St Peter said "Over there ont he left we have the Buddhist community, on your right you will see the Lutherans, straight ahead you will see the Hindus and behind them the Anglicans". "That's great", said the man, "but what is that high wall over there?" St Peter replied "That's where we keep the baptists - they like to think they're the only ones up here".

Cheers
Mike

I believe I will see folks in heaven who I would not have expected to be there and visa versa...
By the way, I am not a baptist. I am guessing your Anglican?

[Frog]

Amen, Mike!!

[jgredline]

Hi folks,
While I wait for Mike to answer my above questions, I felt the need to explain a few things a little further....The Bible says that there will be others preaching another Jesus...In other words a false Jesus...

2 Co 11:1-4
Oh, that you would bear with me in a little folly—and indeed you do bear with me. 2 For I am jealous for you with godly jealousy. For I have betrothed you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. 3 But I fear, lest somehow, as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, so your minds may be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ. 4 For if he who comes preaches another Jesus whom we have not preached, or if you receive a different spirit which you have not received, or a different gospel which you have not accepted—you may well put up with it!

So Paul is sending out a warning that there will be people preaching another Jesus...So always verify everything with scripture.

John also tells us in his 1 letter.
1 Jn 4:1-6
Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits, whether they are of God; because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2 By this you know the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is of God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is not of God. And this is the spirit of the Antichrist, which you have heard was coming, and is now already in the world.
4 You are of God, little children, and have overcome them, because He who is in you is greater than he who is in the world. 5 They are of the world. Therefore they speak as of the world, and the world hears them. 6 We are of God. He who knows God hears us; he who is not of God does not hear us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

This is just some food for thought.

[Anbesol]

words are still merely a practical utilitarian tool, they cannot be 'perfect' because language itself isn't perfect, and only represents relative concepts. When I say the word 'shoe', do you know if I am refering to a Nike tennis shoe, or a Columbian hiking shoe? What of the details on rubber, leather, or even the elemental compounds? What about the geometrics of the shoe? ... The word 'shoe' is a practical tool to help communicate. No matter how specific and exact I may chose to use language, its still is a relative concept. I could write about the shoe in 1000 pages, detailing it with every science and conceptual application, and it still could not be a 'perfect' explanation as it falls on relativity and subjectivity.

If "God" protects his "Holy book", how come there are specific details within it that contradict each other? Why does Paul state his conversion differently than Luke does in Acts? When was the last supper, since the 4 Gospels have a variation on the specific details? Why is it that Matthew Mark Luke and John describe identical events yet have varieties in the specific details?

Its pretty much a rhetorical question, as I am willing to bet you would only answer them with religious axioms and church dogma.

So Paul is sending out a warning that there will be people preaching another Jesus...So always verify everything with scripture

Ha, was this an accusation? Would you put yourself under this examination?

[jgredline]

words are still merely a practical utilitarian tool, they cannot be 'perfect' because language itself isn't perfect, and only represents relative concepts. When I say the word 'shoe', do you know if I am refering to a Nike tennis shoe, or a Columbian hiking shoe? What of the details on rubber, leather, or even the elemental compounds? What about the geometrics of the shoe? ... The word 'shoe' is a practical tool to help communicate. No matter how specific and exact I may chose to use language, its still is a relative concept. I could write about the shoe in 1000 pages, detailing it with every science and conceptual application, and it still could not be a 'perfect' explanation as it falls on relativity and subjectivity.

If "God" protects his "Holy book", how come there are specific details within it that contradict each other? Why does Paul state his conversion differently than Luke does in Acts? When was the last supper, since the 4 Gospels have a variation on the specific details? Why is it that Matthew Mark Luke and John describe identical events yet have varieties in the specific details?

Its pretty much a rhetorical question, as I am willing to bet you would only answer them with religious axioms and church dogma.


Ha, was this an accusation? Would you put yourself under this examination?

If you give me the verses in question I will be more than happy to answer them. I believe the word of God to be perfect, and while there are many difficulties in it, there are answers...Now weather those answers are what you want to hear is another story in itself...I am not trying to convince you of anything...I am not even offering up my opinions, but simply presenting the simplicity of the scriptures.

As far as accusations go, I accuse no one...May the word of God bring conviction ...If I am teaching falsely, please rebuke me with scripture and not your opinions.....

[Didache]

Javier .. I have been out tonight (a photography thing as it happens) so I won't be able to address any of your questions until tomorrow. But allow me to address just one. I think you misunderstood me on the "born again" thing.

I am prefectly aware of the origins of the phrase - you didn't need to tell me. However it is also true that the phrase is used almost exclusively within the conservative evangelical camp. This is not a judgement on the phrase, just a fact of life. If someone identifies themselves as a "born again Christian" or asks if you are "born again", the odds are pretty overwhelming that they will belong to the conservative end of the spectrum. That and that alone was my point: the reason I don't especially like the phrase is because I do not identify myself with that branch of Christianity. Simple as that.

However, I am also puzzled by your post about preachers of a false Jesus - it seemed an odd and somewhat provocative post at this point.

Cheers
Mike

[Didache]

christiansoldier. I did not call you rude or hateful - in fact I freely acknowledge that you are polite and gracious. I don't know where you got that from.

Mike

[christiansoldier]

christiansoldier. I did not call you rude or hateful - in fact I freely acknowledge that you are polite and gracious. I don't know where you got that from.

Mike

Hi Mike,

No, you did not and thank you.

Yours was the 'club' remark. I grouped two responses together. The other was based on:

Accept that there are cultural diversities, and your tradition is no more holier than theirs. Stop this self pseudo-righteousness. I know you're just simply parroting what your church feeds you, but it is incredibly offensive and repulsive at the same time. Think of it this way - every culture you insult, you are insulting me, every religion you insult, you are insulting me. I don't need to be a practicing hindu or muslim or what have you, for me to be offended by your rudeness and patronizing hatred towards them. Is this what your faith comes to?

(emphasis mine)

[jgredline]

Javier .. I have been out tonight (a photography thing as it happens) so I won't be able to address any of your questions until tomorrow. But allow me to address just one. I think you misunderstood me on the "born again" thing.

Mike, no rush..Do not let this consume you. We have time..

I am prefectly aware of the origins of the phrase - you didn't need to tell me. However it is also true that the phrase is used almost exclusively within the conservative evangelical camp. This is not a judgement on the phrase, just a fact of life. If someone identifies themselves as a "born again Christian" or asks if you are "born again", the odds are pretty overwhelming that they will belong to the conservative end of the spectrum. That and that alone was my point: the reason I don't especially like the phrase is because I do not identify myself with that branch of Christianity. Simple as that.

I suspected that. What branch of Christianity do you associate yourself with?
Please also explain to me Salvation and of course those other questions I asked as well. Universal salvation, Annihalation, all roads lead to heaven,

However, I am also puzzled by your post about preachers of a false Jesus - it seemed an odd and somewhat provocative post at this point.

Cheers
Mike

This was not directed at you specifically. If it was I would have told you straight. I was directing it to all including myself which is why I said, if I am teaching falsely, please correct me with scripture...After all, we are trying to define a Christian based on the Scriptures. I also did not mean to offend you by posting John chapter 3, but I did it for others who are following along...I am well aware your familiar with the scriptures...

Understand however, that Red flags go up when you avoid the simple questions with long drawn out answers that don't answer the questions...

[christiansoldier]

Javier - you responded to every single person in the thread, except for me.

Not so... scroll up...you will see the following was in response to your post.

If you give me the verses in question I will be more than happy to answer them. I believe the word of God to be perfect, and while there are many difficulties in it, there are answers...Now weather those answers are what you want to hear is another story in itself...I am not trying to convince you of anything...I am not even offering up my opinions, but simply presenting the simplicity of the scriptures.

As far as accusations go, I accuse no one...May the word of God bring conviction ...If I am teaching falsely, please rebuke me with scripture and not your opinions.....

[Anbesol]

Javier - you responded to every single person in the thread, except for me. After you responded to everybody else, you mentioned the 'false jesus' preachers, it seemed quite directed, and I still think you had directed that towards me. No less, you asked, here it is

Javier - the good samaritan story. Jesus clearly illustrates here that its not a matter of which tribe of religion you belong to, but where your heart belongs. The religious leaders in this story had their hearts in the wrong place, so whilst they were icons in their religion, they did not have eternal life. In those days, as you I am sure well aware of, Samaritans were the marginalized fringe religious movement. This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are. The samaritan had his heart in the right place, as was illustrated by his mercy and compassion for the beaten man. Today, he may as well have said 'Buddhist' or 'Hindu' in palce of Samaritan, this is the gravity of his statements. I am perplexed how you can have read this story and still say the things you say. You proclaim that we must follow a certain tradition (your tradition, what a surprise), and profess an exact orthodoxical faith in order to be saved and have eternal life, but Jesus said something quite incredibly different.

And how about Matthew 25:31-46 - 'inasmuch as you have done it to the least of them, you have done it to me', the illustration is qutie a far cry from 'because you professed faith in me'. Can a Hindu not be kind to the least of them? Can an atheist not be good to the least of them? Proclaimed faith played no part in this rather vivid illustration. But you would have us believe that its simply professing faith that grants us eternal life. This is something you may be able to twist out of the words of Paul, but you couldn't in a thousand years read such from the words of Christ.

Anticipating you citing John 14:6, lets recognize something first. Jesus said "I am the way, the truth, and the life", but did he say "nobody else is the way, it is exclusively me alone"? No, he didnt! He continues to say "nobody comes to the father but by me", but did he say "you can come to the father by skipping everybody else as well, just not me", in fact, going back to Mt 25, it seems that we need to come by even the very least of them, as by going by the very least of them, we are going by Him. You, Heluvs, and Soldier are making false equivocations out of J 14:6, the most twisted piece of scripture in Christian history. A beautiful verse thats been transformed into a sectarianist emblem of pseudo-self righteousness.

[Loupey]

...This made what jesus said particularly profound, because he showed us that it doesn't matter what tradition, culture or practice or profession we follow that give us 'eternal life', but where our hearts are...

Thank you, Anbesol, for this clarification. To me, it seems like one’s actions and thoughts are all that should be important - not one's affiliation nor religious education/understanding.

Anyone: Consider an elderly tribesman in the depths of the Amazon jungle who spends his whole life teaching, raising, and healing his clan. Or consider a mother raising a family as best as she can in an impoverished neighborhood on a hillside outside Mexico City. And consider an 18-year-old inner city student who, despite his limited time and resources, does what he can by volunteering at the local shelter. For various reasons, none of these people have stepped foot in a church and have no concept of religion. If they all died tragically this morning, what happens to them?


Anbesol, regarding your earlier post asking, “Are we then, not Animals?” – I say, yes, we certainly are in every sense. Many other species exhibit long and lasting social bonds, communication skills, reasoning abilities, and compassion. Are we any better? In fact, there is no other species more intolerant of other species, the environment, or members of its own species than Man himself.

[Didache]

To answer SOME of the questions:

While I don't especially like labels (which only put people in pigeon holes that don't accurately reflect their views), I suppose I could be described as just a smidgen to the liberal side of centre. Moderate is what some would call me, others would describe me as representing a thoughtful type of Christianity. I would certainly not belong in the fundamentalist camp, but nor would i belong in the ultra-liberal camp. I hope that helps.

Re annihilation/hell/etc - there is a fair bit of biblical material which uses the language of "exclusion" (eg the parable of the foolish virgins, etc) - the concept of "hell" (to use the convenient term) would, to me, speak of exclusion from God - a spiritual darkness if you like. To be where God is not, would be hell to me. This leads on to annihilation which I suppose is the closest to my own view - not to exist at all is the ultimate "being where God is not".

As for "universal salvation" - it would be a nice thing to believe in! In the end though, there will always be those who do not ultimately wish to dwell in goodness and God, I think, would respect that. To "save" even those who did not wish it would be an intrusion into our free will. Having said that, my view of it would certainly be a lot broader than "heaven only contains those who sign up explicitly to Jesus". Bottom line - I think that there will be a lot more in the Kingdom that some of us think. After all, God is merciful and forgiving and who knows what a person's response will be when face to face with him? That is not saying that (in your phrase) "all roads lead to heaven" - but it is saying, maybe, that God sees the roads we travel on a little more clearly than we do.

That will do for now
Mike

[jgredline]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. It has been a little busy for me.

To answer SOME of the questions:

While I don't especially like labels (which only put people in pigeon holes that don't accurately reflect their views), I suppose I could be described as just a smidgen to the liberal side of centre. Moderate is what some would call me, others would describe me as representing a thoughtful type of Christianity. I would certainly not belong in the fundamentalist camp, but nor would i belong in the ultra-liberal camp. I hope that helps.

I will need to ponder this a little...How do you feel about Pauls letters..We have avoided them in this thread and I have tried not to bring them in because most liberals don't like them. They say they are not inspired...It scares me that you think that Genesis and it sounds like much of the bible is a metaphor...

Re annihilation/hell/etc - there is a fair bit of biblical material which uses the language of "exclusion" (eg the parable of the foolish virgins, etc) - the concept of "hell" (to use the convenient term) would, to me, speak of exclusion from God - a spiritual darkness if you like. To be where God is not, would be hell to me. This leads on to annihilation which I suppose is the closest to my own view - not to exist at all is the ultimate "being where God is not".

What do you make of Jesus teachings in Matt 25:46? Was Jesus not being honest? In my opinion to hold to annihilation would cheapen what Jesus did on the cross...

As for "universal salvation" - it would be a nice thing to believe in! In the end though, there will always be those who do not ultimately wish to dwell in goodness and God, I think, would respect that. To "save" even those who did not wish it would be an intrusion into our free will. Having said that, my view of it would certainly be a lot broader than "heaven only contains those who sign up explicitly to Jesus".

Please explain another way...I look forward to your answer..

Bottom line - I think that there will be a lot more in the Kingdom that some of us think. After all, God is merciful and forgiving and who knows what a person's response will be when face to face with him? That is not saying that (in your phrase) "all roads lead to heaven" - but it is saying, maybe, that God sees the roads we travel on a little more clearly than we do.

That will do for now
Mike

Except God is also HOLY and is just...He must punish sin...Again Romans...
I look forward to reading your answers.