Highly upset!!

[shutterman]

I can't really address the initial complaint about using photos w/o permission. Not sure how I would handle the situation except to say that I now display pictures on the web using a "Flash" program so pictures cannot be copied.

In terms of giving pictures away and others trying to make money - well this is essentially the same as any other market in any other industry where there are relatively low barriers to entry and technology that evolves constantly.

If someone wants to give pictures away than what can you do except to differentiate yourself in some way (service, quality, whatever). You can't expect to have a nice picture and then have someone say "Hey I would like to buy that - take my money" (although I guess that happens occasionally)

You have to sell it, sell yourself, demonstrate why they should pay for yours and not take the freebie. Adina pointed out that she makes a point to get out there and get in front of the customers - helping to create and expand her market.

There is an element of sales in this that you cannot forget and must work at constantly. Would you buy something when you could get it for free? No, but probably the end product isn't exactly the same, but what is the difference b/n the two? That is what you have to sieze upon. If in the end there is a real or percieved difference then you will have a sale and if you live up to your word and are dedicated to the business/art/quality you will have repeat customers.

[masdog]

I realize this is a difficult topic for a lot of people, and I think everyone needs to go a little bit easier on Scott. Two months ago, I would have made the same mistake, and it seems to be a common mistake amongst new/rookie photographers.

Like alot of things, charging for photos comes down to common sense. Most of the time, yes, I would charge. But there are cases where I have given a friend a single picture, either because they were in it or they wanted to give it as a gift. Yes, it is important to be a mercenary, but you have to know when to be a mercenary and when not to be.

Its funny that you guys bring up getting paid for your work. I wish that was the case for me. I get paid for the prints, but that is about it. Every game I shoot for my school, every team picture or headshot, etc, is an opportunity that I had to pay for. I get college credit out of it, but that comes at about $200-$300 dollars per credit hour. Not that I have much of a choice in that matter - I spent upwards of $20K a year to get a degree, and I would rather have an internship I enjoy.

I'm trying to work something up for the Spring Semester so I can get paid for everything I do. If they won't set up a time to talk about it when I bring it up next, I suppose I won't be available for them when the Spring comes around.

[adina]

If you don't put any value on your work, they won't either.


One thing that everyone needs to realize, is if you are going to have a leg to stand on, you NEED to have something in writing. I've been there, it's not fun, but consider it a lesson learned, and do better next time.

Yes, you're upset, that's understandable. But now you know what to do differently next time.

Been there, done that. I can guarantee that I won't be in that situation again. Lesson learned.

[Asylum Steve]

Sorry to hear how stressful this situation has been for you. The feeling of getting "stabbed in the back", when you work hard to help out a group of people definitely sucks...

You've been getting quite a mixture of comments, some informed, some not. I'm no legal expert by any means (as others have said, there are books and lawyers for that), but if I may add my two pesos...

One, you do not give up your legal publishing rights to a photo simply by giving away free copies of it. In lieu of any written or verbal agreement, as the creator of the shot your rights are implied and protected.

So, that means one of three things: either 1) the Booster Club believes you granted them verbal permission to print and sell copies of the photo, 2) they knew they needed permission, didn't get it, and decided to just go ahead and do it anyway, or 3) this whole thing was an honest mistake and misunderstanding.

Regardless, you need to talk with them. Depending on how they respond, you have some decisions to make.

If they realize their ignorance and admit their mistake in wrongfully selling your shot for profit, they'll probably stop using the pic. They may also decide to compensate you. Or they may work out a new agreement with you to keep using the pic.

Now, if your relationship with the school, the team, and the Booster Club is important enough to you, you need to decide if any of the above are sufficient to put this whole thing behind you and move forward. Hopefully, in the future, you'll be more clear on an agreement and what rights are given for your images.

If you're not satisfied with their actions, you probably have the right to pursue the matter legally. Then it will likely be your word against theirs, plus the little matter of whether you needed a location permit to even shoot at these games (yep, something else to think about). And even if you win you will most likely severe your ties and working relationship with the school and the team.

Now, on the subject of giving photography away for free, I am going to go completely against the grain here. I have absolutely no problem with shooters doing this under the right circumstances.

In the fashion business in South Florida, there are many many shooters that will do portfolio shots for a model for free. They are almost all beginners, and that is simply the way it is.

This has always been the way you get your foot in the door and build up a portfolio. Heck, I've got at least half a dozen trade-out shoots in the works right now (where everyone will get free prints) simply because I have new equipment, new ideas, and need new images in my book. This is in no way unethical...

I would even go so far as to say that if your intentions are to remain an amateur shooter and keep photography as a hobby, you have the right to ALWAYS give your work away if you can afford.

Think about it. Many musicians give away CDs of their work for free to promote themselves in live venues and such. Does this undermine the entire commercial music business? Hardly. Deserving acts will still be paid top dollar...

Do not listen to crybaby pros. In a free market, you get your fees because your work and your name are in demand, not simply because you ask for a certain amount of money or don't, or others are charging more or less (or nothing).

Trust me though, if you ARE trying to break into commercial photography, and continue to give your work away (or continually lowball other shooters), you'll only go so far and that will be it.

Yes, at SOME POINT you have to put a fair market value on your work, but no one else can tell you what that timeline should be.

It is also not unusual to be a working pro charging fair market fees and rates, and yet still have pet projects that you do very cheaply or even for free. There have been many groups and organizations that I've done free work for, and it in no way affects my other commercial clients or other shooters in the market...

[Sebastian]

Yes, at SOME POINT you have to put a fair market value on your work, but no one else can tell you what that timeline has should be.

What you don't realize, is that by then the market has been devalued to nothing.

We're not talking fashion here, we're talking about community sports, and to a lesser extent, editorial/journalistic markets. All the stuff that suburban bored people find glamorous and want to shoot.

The proliferation of low-cost, high-quality digital cameras has littered the market with mediocre shooters that will give away work with the only compensation being credit because they think the digital pictures are "free." And by giving away I mean giving away the FILES, which is very different from giving away PRINTS. I give away prints all the time as samples of work and of the print quality of my lab. But on the back is a stamp with my copyright info, and it's more than likely an image that has no value to the person receiving the sample.

But even in your case, giving prints in exchange for a model's time, you're receiving compensation in the form of the model's time, the make-up artist's time, and the hair dresser's time. You may not have gotten money, but you got something that's worth something. That is worlds apart from showing up somewhere, shooting it, and giving the images away to people to do with as they please. You make agreements with the people you trade with, there is a clear understanding that everyone's work has VALUE. And therefore, it is nothing like what the original poster described.

I see your example more as a temporary partnership, whereas I see the poster's actions equivalent to printing and distributing $10 bills.

[Asylum Steve]

That is worlds apart from showing up somewhere, shooting it, and giving the images away to people to do with as they please...

Let me give you a better one: the South Beach club scene. My guess is there are many parallels to this situation...

The SoBe night scene is a series of events, the shots are primarily grab shots (where the moment is more important than anything artistically). Many many folks have cameras and take pictures at these places, and more often than not give them away to everyone free, and beautiful women often take their tops off and dance suggestively on the bar and tabletops until the wee hours of the morning.

Ok, that last part I made up... ;)

The point is, even though the publications I worked for could have gotten as many pics as they wanted free, I was paid quite well to provide them with the images. It was for reasons other than what I charged or what else was available.

The bottom line is, as a commercial shooter, you have to continually evaluate the various markets you're trying to work, and understand that they all evolve and change, many times for the worse.

If a given market has become flooded with cheap or free alternatives to what you provide (which IS exactly the way the fashion market is, and thus relevant), you simply have to rethink whether that market is worth pursuing.

BTW, Seb, I DO sense your frustration. I'm just saying I don't think there's much you can do about it...

[Sebastian]

If a given market has become flooded with cheap or free alternatives to what you provide (which IS exactly the way the fashion market is, and thus relevant), you simply have to rethink whether that market is worth pursuing.

BTW, Seb, I DO sense your frustration. I'm just saying I don't think there's much you can do about it...

I agree completely about pursuing other markets. But I think that there is something that can be done about the damage being done. Educating people about the worth of the images and the potential damage of free distribution on the local market, and maybe even the industry as a whole, can make people think twice about it. There will always be those that don't care, but there are also many people that do.

And the only reason I get frustrated is not because it hurts my pocket book, but because I still have this pipe dream of some day being able to write "Photographer" under profession on a form, and I just don't see being able to make a living at it in a few decades. Not the way the market is going right now. And the fact is, the market I am most interested in (editorial/journalistic) is one of the ones that's being diluted. I am pursuing other avenues, but it makes me sad to see such a decline. I don't mind shooting weddings, but it's far from my first choice...

[Sebastian]

Do not listen to crybaby pros. In a free market, you get your fees because your work and your name are in demand, not simply because you ask for a certain amount of money or don't, or others are charging more or less (or nothing).

I would hardly consider pros concerned about their well-being to by "crybabies."

You have to understand, this is not likely to happen with a fashion shooter. The work is high-caliber because it needs to match the quality and image of the magazine industry, and the market is very different than it is with freelancers or event shooters. There are not that many fashion shooters (none in my area), but I am always surrounded by at least two or three parents on the sidelines of games shooting "for fun." They ask me who I'm with and I tell them, and usually that's followed by "Oh, I sent them images a few times, it's nice being published..."

The ones that are complaining are the ones that are in those areas of the business that are popular, namely sports and editorial. Publications are having a hard time financially, and that means taking a lesser free photo from a doctor with a 1Ds over a great photo from a guy that makes a mid-level income freelancing with his DSLR that he has yet to pay off.

I think you are in a part of the industry that is smaller and more secluded than what we're talking about here. Fashion is very different, both business and size-wise than sports and editorial. It's a hell of a lot harder to break into than going to a high school game with a 10D and a 70-200 and taking away several hundred dollars of income from the event guy working the game, or the already paltry rates that freelancers receive.

[Asylum Steve]

The (fashion ) work is high-caliber because it needs to match the quality and image of the magazine industry...

Dude, you're not even close. Fashion in Miami is much more similar to your "event" shooting than it is different. I guess at least 90% of the work down there is done by any hack with a camera.

That crap is continually passed on and sold (or given away) to unsuspecting models and parents because they don't know any better. I can't speak for digital, but when I was down there, the vast majority of lowball film shooters gave their clients ALL original material, so you can guess how much value they put on it. I would think now with digital, the situation has only gotten worse...

As I said, this flood of cheap work (both cost and quality) always exists, and an aspiring shooter simply has to rise above it.

BTW, I didn't mean to imply that anyone on THIS site was crybaby. I meant those OTHER photo sites... ;)

[Sebastian]

Dude, you're not even close. Fashion in Miami is much more similar to your "event" shooting than it is different. I guess at least 90% of the work down there is done by any hack with a camera.

See, when I think of "fashion" I think of the sort of stuff I helped you with when I was down there. I assume now that when you say "fashion" you're talking those guys that hug the runways of awards shows? That I can see.

[Asylum Steve]

I assume now that when you say "fashion" you're talking those guys that hug the runways of awards shows? That I can see.

Well, I can't speak for any runways or red carpets. My experience has been the wolves loitering on Ocean Drive by the modeling agencies...

[Trevor Ash]

In terms of educating others (amateur photographers giving away their work for free), what is the cost to THEM, the ones giving away their work? Sure, we all see how much it costs people like Seb. But why should they give a rats ass about Seb? All they want is the credibility or "coolness" that comes with getting published, they don't aspire to make money off it. How does this hurt THEM?

Seriously, if there were a good answer to that question then some of them might convert to the holyism.

I like making up words.

[Sebastian]

In terms of educating others (amateur photographers giving away their work for free), what is the cost to THEM, the ones giving away their work? Sure, we all see how much it costs people like Seb. But why should they give a rats ass about Seb? All they want is the credibility or "coolness" that comes with getting published, they don't aspire to make money off it. How does this hurt THEM?

Seriously, if there were a good answer to that question then some of them might convert to the holyism.

I like making up words.

Like I said, some people don't care, but some do. It's the latter that sometimes don't realize it that their hobby is costing someone else money.

But even the ones that don't care incur costs. The cost of the equipment, the time spent editing images, as well as the time spent shooting the actual event. Sure, it's fun the first few games and the attention is great, but when all of a sudden you are the one everyone is calling for photos and you don't feel like it because the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

[masdog]

Like I said, some people don't care, but some do. It's the latter that sometimes don't realize it that their hobby is costing someone else money.

But even the ones that don't care incur costs. The cost of the equipment, the time spent editing images, as well as the time spent shooting the actual event. Sure, it's fun the first few games and the attention is great, but when all of a sudden you are the one everyone is calling for photos and you don't feel like it because the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

That is when you start charging.

[Sebastian]

That is when you start charging.

But by then you have already created an environment where the product is expected for free. And there will be some new punk waiting for you to bow out just because they got a new fancy DSLR and want to play photographer, and you are out time and money.

Giving things away for free with the expectation of chargin for them later is a pipe dream.

[masdog]

But by then you have already created an environment where the product is expected for free. And there will be some new punk waiting for you to bow out just because they got a new fancy DSLR and want to play photographer, and you are out time and money.

Giving things away for free with the expectation of chargin for them later is a pipe dream.

And yet it is one of the best marketing practices available. Ever get a "free sample?"

[Sebastian]

And yet it is one of the best marketing practices available. Ever get a "free sample?"

As I explained above, a "sample" is a print, maybe with your contact info somewhere where it's hard to remove. But giving away files is NOT a sample! It's giving away the entire product. And once they get the image they want for nothing, why the hell would they want to come back to you?

Those of us that have done it know, they don't. They wait for the next fool that gives away "free samples." Ever hear of a mechanic that does "free samples?" Or a doctor?

[masdog]

As I explained above, a "sample" is a print, maybe with your contact info somewhere where it's hard to remove. But giving away files is NOT a sample! It's giving away the entire product. And once they get the image they want for nothing, why the hell would they want to come back to you?

Those of us that have done it know, they don't. They wait for the next fool that gives away "free samples." Ever hear of a mechanic that does "free samples?" Or a doctor?

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

[Sebastian]

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

Fair enough.

[Trevor Ash]

I just can't believe that Sebastian not only predicted the next question within this thread, but who asked it!

Wow!! You're in the wrong business dude!

[masdog]

Um...did it ever cross your mind that I said it just to get a rise out of him??

[Trevor Ash]

Um...did it ever cross your mind that I said it just to get a rise out of him??

That won't get it done. You'll need six candles in proper arrangement, a lighter, and the freshly spilled blood of a virgin if you want to see Sebastian rise.

[masdog]

That won't get it done. You'll need six candles in proper arrangement, a lighter, and the freshly spilled blood of a virgin if you want to see Sebastian rise.

Damnit! I got the virgin and the candles. Now what the hell did I do with my lighter??

[adina]

But even the ones that don't care incur costs. The cost of the equipment, the time spent editing images, as well as the time spent shooting the actual event. Sure, it's fun the first few games and the attention is great, but when all of a sudden you are the one everyone is calling for photos and you don't feel like it because the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

Everyone and their grandma has a dslr and photoshop these days. Put that thing on auto, and you're an instanteous professional photographer. Once the novelty wears off, and you are incurring costs, people start to feel taken advantage of. But how do you go from free to charging what your worth? You can't just make that big leap, and not expect there to be difference in your schedule. There's always someone standing behind you with their new dslr on auto, waiting for your spot, who's willing to start where you started (meaning doing it for free)

Start as you mean to go on. It doesn't even have to do with bringing down the industry. If you don't want to be burnt out after a year, you need to set your standard and stick to it.

[masdog]

Put that thing on auto, and you're an instanteous professional photographer.

Not quite. Using your camera hardly makes you an instanteous professional photographer. You might get some images with good exposure, but there is, usually, a noticable difference between a professional quality image and one that is taken by a noob with a DSLR on auto.