Highly upset!!

[masdog]

Like I said, some people don't care, but some do. It's the latter that sometimes don't realize it that their hobby is costing someone else money.

But even the ones that don't care incur costs. The cost of the equipment, the time spent editing images, as well as the time spent shooting the actual event. Sure, it's fun the first few games and the attention is great, but when all of a sudden you are the one everyone is calling for photos and you don't feel like it because the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

That is when you start charging.

[adina]

But even the ones that don't care incur costs. The cost of the equipment, the time spent editing images, as well as the time spent shooting the actual event. Sure, it's fun the first few games and the attention is great, but when all of a sudden you are the one everyone is calling for photos and you don't feel like it because the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

Everyone and their grandma has a dslr and photoshop these days. Put that thing on auto, and you're an instanteous professional photographer. Once the novelty wears off, and you are incurring costs, people start to feel taken advantage of. But how do you go from free to charging what your worth? You can't just make that big leap, and not expect there to be difference in your schedule. There's always someone standing behind you with their new dslr on auto, waiting for your spot, who's willing to start where you started (meaning doing it for free)

Start as you mean to go on. It doesn't even have to do with bringing down the industry. If you don't want to be burnt out after a year, you need to set your standard and stick to it.

[Sebastian]

That is when you start charging.

But by then you have already created an environment where the product is expected for free. And there will be some new punk waiting for you to bow out just because they got a new fancy DSLR and want to play photographer, and you are out time and money.

Giving things away for free with the expectation of chargin for them later is a pipe dream.

[Sebastian]

And yet it is one of the best marketing practices available. Ever get a "free sample?"

As I explained above, a "sample" is a print, maybe with your contact info somewhere where it's hard to remove. But giving away files is NOT a sample! It's giving away the entire product. And once they get the image they want for nothing, why the hell would they want to come back to you?

Those of us that have done it know, they don't. They wait for the next fool that gives away "free samples." Ever hear of a mechanic that does "free samples?" Or a doctor?

[masdog]

But by then you have already created an environment where the product is expected for free. And there will be some new punk waiting for you to bow out just because they got a new fancy DSLR and want to play photographer, and you are out time and money.

Giving things away for free with the expectation of chargin for them later is a pipe dream.

And yet it is one of the best marketing practices available. Ever get a "free sample?"

[Trevor Ash]

I just can't believe that Sebastian not only predicted the next question within this thread, but who asked it!

Wow!! You're in the wrong business dude!

[masdog]

Um...did it ever cross your mind that I said it just to get a rise out of him??

[masdog]

As I explained above, a "sample" is a print, maybe with your contact info somewhere where it's hard to remove. But giving away files is NOT a sample! It's giving away the entire product. And once they get the image they want for nothing, why the hell would they want to come back to you?

Those of us that have done it know, they don't. They wait for the next fool that gives away "free samples." Ever hear of a mechanic that does "free samples?" Or a doctor?

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

[Photo-John]

In terms of educating others (amateur photographers giving away their work for free), what is the cost to THEM, the ones giving away their work? Sure, we all see how much it costs people like Seb. But why should they give a rats ass about Seb? All they want is the credibility or "coolness" that comes with getting published, they don't aspire to make money off it. How does this hurt THEM?

If I'm a beginning or amateur photographer, I may be perfectly happy with seeing my name in print or having one of my images hanging the wall at a local restaurant or shop. But every time I give something away I reinforce the idea that the work isn't worth paying for. What if I get more serious a few months or years down the road and feel like I want to start selling me work. But people are used to getting it for free from me or other photographers. Why should they start paying for it now? When we give stuff away, we lower the value of photography in general. In the end, we may be shooting ourselves in our own foot.

I do agree with Steve about getting your foot in the door. You do it any way you can. Usually you do it by giving away your work, trading your work, or selling it for much less than the "pros." I would be surprised if anyone participating in this argument hasn't done it.

But now that I'm on the getting paid side of the fence, I'm going to do my best to make sure that dollar value of photography is respected and upheld. Because I want to be able to pay my bills. I don't blame any beginning photographer for doing whatever they have to do to get ahead. But I want to make sure they understand what it does to the market. In this case, hesaias, may have set himself up for the problem he's experiencing. If he'd charged people for photos in the first place, they may have thought that they should pay him or get permission to use them. But since he appeared to be giving them away, why not just go ahead and use them. He doesn't care, right?

This is a great discussion, isn't it! I'm glad I added this forum. I've got a lawyer in the family. Gotta get him in on the fun here

[Trevor Ash]

Um...did it ever cross your mind that I said it just to get a rise out of him??

That won't get it done. You'll need six candles in proper arrangement, a lighter, and the freshly spilled blood of a virgin if you want to see Sebastian rise.

[masdog]

That won't get it done. You'll need six candles in proper arrangement, a lighter, and the freshly spilled blood of a virgin if you want to see Sebastian rise.

Damnit! I got the virgin and the candles. Now what the hell did I do with my lighter??

[ken1953]

http://www.copyright.gov/circs/circ1.html#uw

Here is the link to the government copyright page. Very easy to read. This will clarify much of what we are all saying!
Ken

[Sebastian]

Yeah, I know. I was just trying to get a rise out of you.

Fair enough.

[ken1953]

That is somewhat correct, but there is much more to it than that.

For one, you can do exactly nothing legally without registering your work with the US Copyright Office. You can send them a CD/DVD with thumbnails of several months work and pay the $30 fee, or you can do it more or less than that. Starting this year, I will be doing it monthly, and I'm just figuring the costs into the cost of doing business.

Without it being registered you have no right to collect attorney fees, only potential damages.

Where do the attorney fees fit in? Taking a copyright case to court starts at a little over $100,000.00 in court costs. So let's say someone uses your image in a way that is worth $10,000 in licensing fees. You get that plus extra because the defendant acted inappropriately, so let's say you end up with $25,000. You still owe the lawyer $75,000. Lawyers are in this to make money, and if they know the defendant doesn't have to pay their fees, they will either refuse to take your case, or make YOU pay the fees up front. Either way, a starving local photog is not taking their case to court.

And, the cases are notoriously difficult to win. So unless you have a VERY tight case and LOTS of damages, and the images are registered, it's pretty much impossible to find a lawyer that will take on your case.

Just to clarify and confirm what Sebastian is saying. This is a quote from the Copyright laws about "registering" your works. Please note, registration is not required to have a work "copyrighted", but it is necessary to pursue legal action.

" COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION


In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:

• Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
  
• Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.
  
• If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.
  
• If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
  
• Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, request Publication No. 563 "How to Protect Your Intellectual Property Right," from: U.S. Customs Service, P.O. Box 7404, Washington, D.C. 20044. See the U.S. Customs Service Website at www.customs.gov for online publications.
  

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright. Unlike the law before 1978, when a work has been registered in unpublished form, it is not necessary to make another registration when the work becomes published, although the copyright owner may register the published edition, if desired."

Ken

[hesaias]

Okay, after all that here is the deal: I live in a tiny town in SC. There is no "market" because there is no product. No one does what I do in my town. In order to get into the state championship game on the sidelines, I had to ask a Newspaper editor who I had never met, one day before the game to vouch for me. The only option I had is to offer "free" product. Same deal with the state all star game. However, there i met some guys who may turn out to move me along to getting paid for my pics put in the newspapers. I offered to set up a deal with the school, they blew me off. I have given high res files to 2 people. One is a close family friend, and is on many of the pictures, the other was a church group who printed them and gave them out at the banquet.

Bottom line, you gotta have a market for your product to sell it. Now, I am expected at the games. The parents, and players look for me. the check my site after every game to see the pics. I have created a market to sell prints, but as of yet, I cannot print them. So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there? I am watermarking my stuff now, and I will leave the pics up for a period of time, then remove all but thumbnails linked to an order form for prints.

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

[Photo-John]

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

Never say never!

At the minimum, make sure you tell the school how you feel about their illicit use of your photos. Tell them you would have loved to have them use it. But you feel hurt by them not asking. Being honest about this type of thing is good. They probaby have no idea how you feel. And don't think there's no market. If people are expecting you to show up and they look forward and expect to see your photos, then there's a market. There's a demand for your work. It's worth money. How much is the question. If you work hard, you should be compensated. At the minimum, people should give you the respect you deserve and respect your property.

We all learn a lot of this stuff the hard way. It's ok.

[Trevor Ash]

So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there?

I'm pretty sure you answered your own question in that post.

[masdog]

Put that thing on auto, and you're an instanteous professional photographer.

Not quite. Using your camera hardly makes you an instanteous professional photographer. You might get some images with good exposure, but there is, usually, a noticable difference between a professional quality image and one that is taken by a noob with a DSLR on auto.

[Photo-John]

Not quite. Using your camera hardly makes you an instanteous professional photographer. You might get some images with good exposure, but there is, usually, a noticable difference between a professional quality image and one that is taken by a noob with a DSLR on auto.

Damn! Back to the drawing board. Guess I'll have to throw out those business cards

[Janie]

Now, this whole topic is exactly why I invested in http://printroom.com - it's well worth the money and they will do team photos for the kids! Look at my page at http://janehaas.com and you'll see how they watermark everything.

[masdog]

Okay, after all that here is the deal: I live in a tiny town in SC. There is no "market" because there is no product. No one does what I do in my town. In order to get into the state championship game on the sidelines, I had to ask a Newspaper editor who I had never met, one day before the game to vouch for me. The only option I had is to offer "free" product. Same deal with the state all star game. However, there i met some guys who may turn out to move me along to getting paid for my pics put in the newspapers. I offered to set up a deal with the school, they blew me off. I have given high res files to 2 people. One is a close family friend, and is on many of the pictures, the other was a church group who printed them and gave them out at the banquet.

Bottom line, you gotta have a market for your product to sell it. Now, I am expected at the games. The parents, and players look for me. the check my site after every game to see the pics. I have created a market to sell prints, but as of yet, I cannot print them. So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there? I am watermarking my stuff now, and I will leave the pics up for a period of time, then remove all but thumbnails linked to an order form for prints.

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

Scott, I might get bitch-slapped by some other members for this, but I know exactly what kind of situation you're in. In my area, it doesn't seem like there is much of a market for my sports photography. There might not be...or I might not have marketed myself enough yet to get lucrative yearbook and newspaper freelance deals. I'm sure that will come as I advertise (but that is a different topic for a different thread...but as a yearbook photographer in high school, I can tell you that some schools do pay good money for yearbook shots).

Anyway, the point I'm gonna make is this - you really didn't do it for free. You didn't get paid, but you did get something out of it. You got credentials. Now some may say that you're not getting a lot out of it since you didn't get greenbacks. As a beginner with aspirations, that is a lot. It gives you a taste of what you can eventually work towards on a daily or weekly basis.

Now, you probably do have a market for your pictures. The school and its organizations, like they Boosters, the yearbook, and Athletic Department, all have a use for them as well as the local newspaper. Parents probably would be interested in purchasing them as well.

To get their attention, sometimes you need to grease a few wheels. No, don't go bribing school officials. But I've heard that photographers who offer a percentage of their procedes to the school as a donation to the Athletic Program end up with a school that is willing to allow them to sell images.

[srobb]

Scott, check out the link in Janie's post. This is the site which I had mentioned that Old Timer uses. They do everything as far as taking orders for prints and sending them to your customers. I think this would be just the thing for you and what you are wanting to do now. If you have people wanting copies of your work, then you have established your market. You just now have to find the best way to get your work to them.

[Lava Lamp]

...the novelty wore off... What do you do then?

The novelty wore off for me when I did a free job that took three hours on the shoot, eight hours in photoshop (had to make a team poster with girls that couldn't be in one place at the same time) and then had the for-proft organization start selling my photos. Ugh!

[mjs1973]

Everyone and their grandma has a dslr and photoshop these days. Put that thing on auto, and you're an instanteous professional photographer.

I know exactly what your talking about Adina. I have a couple of coworkers who work as a photo team, taking senior pics, weddings, that sort of thing. They stay pretty busy with it as a side job, and the stuff I have seen looks good. Nothing steller that jumps out at me, but nice, traditianal looking photos. I may even have them do my wedding. They have asked me to edit some of their work for them (for a price) because they don't know anything about Photoshop. I was happy to do it and it was a good learning experiance for me. I was NOT at all suprised when I looked at the Efix data from the pics and it said they were shot in PROGRAM mode.

Here they are getting paid to take pics with basically an expensive P&S camera. It makes me wonder why I'm spending so much of my time learning about exposure, DOF, all the controls on my camera and everything else that I can relating to photography before I start to advertise my services.

[JSPhoto]

I just love it when people sit in the stands and take pictures all night long, then come to me after the game wanting to buy photos. They ask how I get them, and why mine are not dark, then they say something about not having a lot of money to go buy a good camera. One woman has a 20D, and after every game comes up and asks how to do this or that, and always ignores what I tell her about the lens. Well last night she told me she got a new lenses, but still didn't get an f2.8, but another f4.5 I almost laughed out loud, but didn't. Oh well, she got another shot of her neice today, of course she had to cut it out of the paper

JS