Any interest in a Film Forum at PR?

[Xia_Ke]

Thanks Megan I thought this might spark your interest. Glad you answered my pm :thumbsup:

Since we're talking film, took the Rolleicord out in the backyard today to play around a bit trying to get a feel for how the Xenar handles. Nothing serious but, here's a couple shots from this afternoon's roll of Neopan...

[Frog]

I haven't read this post until today because I know I'm not going to become a film guy again and thought it should be up to those who wanted it. As I read along I started forming an opinion, though, and that is that many of the better photographers at PR use film exclusively or partially and that if they had their own forum, the non film people would miss a lot especially when it comes to images.
Aaron proved my point with his last post....fine images I would not have seen in a film forum.
I do look at film related posts occasionally as there is something to learn no matter how the image is recorded.

[Xia_Ke]

I haven't read this post until today because I know I'm not going to become a film guy again and thought it should be up to those who wanted it. As I read along I started forming an opinion, though, and that is that many of the better photographers at PR use film exclusively or partially and that if they had their own forum, the non film people would miss a lot especially when it comes to images.
Aaron proved my point with his last post....fine images I would not have seen in a film forum.
I do look at film related posts occasionally as there is something to learn no matter how the image is recorded.

I don't know if I would say those are anything really even worth posting but, I'm glad you liked em

If a film forum did end up getting started, I still think that Viewfinder and the Critique Forum are the places to post shots for the most part. Like I said though, if I ended up being one of the mods I would end up posting the majority of my outings, so long as I wasn't looking for a critique, in the film forum simply to generate traffic. However, how is that really any different than with the Nature and Wildlife forum? You could say on one hand that that forum has taken a lot of traffic away from the Viewfinder and Critique forums. To a lesser degree you could also say the same about the Sports forum. My main concern though is how many film related questions are lost, or not even posted to begin with, amongst all the digital questions of the help forum.

Thank you Frog for joining in on the conversation. Your viewpoints are greatly appreciated.

Aaron

[Greg McCary]

I have read some really great ideas but also feel that it wouldn't hurt to have a film forum. It would send a message to photogs surfing sites that PR has a great knowledge base when it comes to all aspects of film. I don't think Aaron means that he wants a forum to share pictures but to have a forum in which to post about different types of film and developing techniques. I know that PR has a " hidden" knowledge base with it's members that needs to be shared with others. I didn't know myself how many RF users there were until I ask for help. I feel PR needs to reach out to the RF users and let them know they are here at PR too.
A film forum may not be the most viewed forum on the site but it's not so much about the traffic as it is about being a well rounded site that attracts the RF users too. I know I needed a lot of help picking out my latest RF, a Bessa R, and a few PM's from the members here really helped me out. The members also helped me pick out a lens.
As far as Aaron being the Mod. I know he has studied hard and knows his stuff. He has helped me a bunch. I give him two thumbs up.

[freygr]

Why should we have a film forum. Posting in the critique or viewfinder forums are not limited to digital. Besides there is a film only board already at http://www.apug.org/forums/home.php But unluckily it is a subscription board.

[Tyson L. Sparks]

I am just now puicking up film, I have a canon RF. A film forum would do ok here and I think Aaron would make a great mod for it too.

[Xia_Ke]

I am just now puicking up film, I have a canon RF. A film forum would do ok here and I think Aaron would make a great mod for it too.

Where's those Canonet shots at Tyson? Not so sure I would make a great mod but, thank you for your confidence

[Tyson L. Sparks]

Where's those Canonet shots at Tyson? Not so sure I would make a great mod but, thank you for your confidence

Well my first roll of film got cut. I couldn't find a way toget the roll of film in my PC so I could use my CS2 LOL

I couldn,t figure out how to rewind it, so I ripped it in half :mad2:

I have been working on some real problems at home and havn't had a chance to get out shooting other than for the paper.

[Xia_Ke]

Hi GRF, thank you for chiming in It's not a matter of posting pics shot on film but, a question of discussing film related topics (film, darkroom techniques, etc) without them getting buried under the mas of digital threads.

As for APUG, it is completely free to post there. The only thing the subscription gets you is access to the galleries and classifieds. And even on top of the subscription, a 3% donation is asked for all classified sales. It is a very dedicated and passionate group of people. It couldn't hurt to have some more of that around here.

[Xia_Ke]

Rewind it? Do you mean rewinding it in the camera after you finished shooting your roll? There's a button underneath that you need to keep pressed in while you rewind. Not sure if you have a manual for it but, you can download a full PDF copy of the manual HERE.

[Xia_Ke]

BUMP for another day.... 500 views and 60 posts in a day and a half. Not too bad. Anyone else have any thoughts one way or the other? Thanks again to all those that have contributed to the discussion so far.

Aaron

[SmartWombat]

It's pretty much a conversation between you and Brian, Aaron.
Only 15 non-moderator posts other than you (10 people).

Xia_Ke ................. 24
mttbrian ............... 11 mod
another_view ......... 4 mod
photophorous ......... 4
Asylum_Steve ........ 3 mod
GB1 ...................... 2
Tyson_L._Sparks ... 2
Greg_McCary ........ 2 mod
freygr .................... 1
adina .................... 1 mod
MB1 ..................... 1
megan .................. 1
frog ...................... 1
mwfanelli2 ............ 1
mjs1973 ............... 1
smartwombat ........ 1 mod
walterick ............... 1 mod
schrackman .......... 1

[Xia_Ke]

I know I have the majority of posts. I felt since I started the thread it was only fair I took the time to respond to people's thoughts on the topic. Seems I'm fighting an uphill battle

[reverberation]

I am both for and against a film forum. I love film and shoot the majority of my pictures with it. I think the forum could be useful for members who may want to explore film developing and darkroom techniques. I would love to see some of the photographers who post here try different darkroom manipulations just so I could see there take on them. I came here because I really was inspired by the photography. The majority of it was done with digital cameras, some of it with point and shoot digital cameras.

The thing that concerns me is the potential impact on the members who don't want to explore film. I have seen a tendency at art festivals and in photography forums to create a hierarchy of artistic expression that values chemically created photographs greater than digitally created photographs. In my opinion this is not fair. You can take an image you created in a darkroom and tell people you did it in photoshop and it will be dismissed as mediocre. I don't like hierarchies that emphasize technique, distorting the value of the final image. You have a tactile based form of artistic expression and a cereberal based form, by not emphasizing which form was used in creating the final image, I think this site is better off.

[SmartWombat]

It'd be odd if you weren't the #1 poster - it's your thread
But there are only 18 other people on this thread.

I think there may be a lot of lurkers.
But we won't know because, well they lurk and don't post.

What I find interesting is the mod interest in film, not a surprise just interesting.
I haven't looked at the relationship between activity and film interest, but I think it's active people also interested in film (only MB1 below 1000 posts).

[Xia_Ke]

Can't really blame the lurkers. I lurked for some time before ever posting here. I dunno, for me "discovering" film was like a whole new world opening up to me. It's something I find myself becoming more and more passionate about. I honestly think there is a void here at PR when it comes to film photography. I know what PJ said before was just an off handed remark but, it definitely caught my attention. Thought it might be time to try running with it and see who else felt the same. Maybe I'm just getting a little over zealous in my pursuit?

[SmartWombat]

Not at all over-zealous, until you start burning digital cameras
Last time I shot film was 2 years ago, while all 3 of my digitals were in for cleaning
Not a problem with film ...

[Xia_Ke]

...until you start burning digital cameras ...

Why would I burn them? The "exchange rate" of digital cameras to film cameras is too high...LOL I could easily get a real nice film camera with the value of a lower end digital camera To burn them would be stupid. I'll just pawn them...LOL

[Xia_Ke]

Thank you for raising a very valid point reverberation. There can be a lot bias based on a particular method. I have also seen the other end of that where digital users have snubbed film shots thinking film was inferior to digital photography. This site is pretty well rounded and I would hope that things would never get to that point. A good shot is a good shot regardless if it's shot on a $20 digital pen cam or a $40k Hasselblad. Unfortunately, until everyone realizes it's the photographer and not the equipment, there will always be ignorant people. For me film was a choice. I just enjoy the whole process of film. As I stated before though my intent is by no means to create a place to post film shots that would be separate from digital shots. Will there be film shots posted in a film forum? Sure there will. That's no different than people posting bird shots in Nature and Wildlife instead of Viewfinder. Same thing for the Sports forum. Primarily I would just like to see a place where film related topics are discussed without them being buried under the masses of digital questions. Plus, I think it could also help to draw in new members.

[mjs1973]

So what does the Captain think about this?

[Sebastian]

Technique is universal. A film forum's only draw would be to discuss the only things that make film unique, in other words developing. Thing is, all the techniques are discovered and well documented, there is next to nothing to bee gained by creating a place for it here.

I'm one of the three people that voted for option 3.

[another view]

Technique is universal. A film forum's only draw would be to discuss the only things that make film unique, in other words developing.

Yes and no, a few examples - with color and b&w neg film I'd usually shoot 1/3 or 2/3 stop overexposed to keep the shadow areas cleaner, with slide film I'd be careful to be sure I had my subject (only) properly exposed or decide if I need to use flash to lower the scene's contrast - but with digital I'll keep an eye out for highlights that might blow out and have tried (but generally don't worry about) the technique of "exposing to the right" as described at Luminous Landscape. The technique of metering itself is universal, but what I choose to do with that information can change based on the media that I use.

As I see it, the hope/goal of a Film Forum is to discuss some of those differences as well as what almost seems like the lost art of darkroom printing. A lot more people still do their own developing and scanning (which would be a fair topic there too, I'd think) but it's still a small group compared to people who are only working with digital.

Another topic that's mostly (but not exclusively, at least among all but top product and architectural photographers) film would be large format cameras. Just thought of that now, not sure if there's anything to work with on that...

I don't think slide film shooters would really stand to benefit too much because it's really just a matter of being good with metering and understanding exposure. Once you press the button you're done, other than scanning technique. Color neg might not gain much either because the options for home development with this and slide film are disappearing (or have disappeared) due to the availability of chemistry, as I've been told.

I completely agree that once the final print or digital version of the image is made it should be about the photography and not the route taken to get there. But having this site show a real interest in drawing serious film shooters could bring up the membership.

[freygr]

Yes and no, a few examples - with clip...

Another topic that's mostly (but not exclusively, at least among all but top product and architectural photographers) film would be large format cameras. Just thought of that now, not sure if there's anything to work with on that...

Large format camera's make great Microphotography cameras

[Sebastian]

Yes and no, a few examples - with color and b&w neg film I'd usually shoot 1/3 or 2/3 stop overexposed to keep the shadow areas cleaner, with slide film I'd be careful to be sure I had my subject (only) properly exposed or decide if I need to use flash to lower the scene's contrast - but with digital I'll keep an eye out for highlights that might blow out and have tried (but generally don't worry about) the technique of "exposing to the right" as described at Luminous Landscape. The technique of metering itself is universal, but what I choose to do with that information can change based on the media that I use.

Yes, but you just summarized the entire spectrum of exposing for negative, slides and digital. Can you or anyone else elaborate on the above enough to justify another forum? As for large format cameras, once you move past the perspective adjustments, what else is there? Besides esoteric developing methods everything else about photography is already well represented with existing forums.

The thing is, the best practices for anything in film are already well established and an entire film forum would be summed up in one well-thought out FAQ. Film is no longer changing, whereas digital is evolving. There is nothing *new* to be shared really on the film side anymore, it's all just passing on of already present knowledge. Not that I'm against that, I just don't think it's worth adding yet another item to the long list of forum choices here.

Forums thrive on new content, not rehashing of the old. Once all the pertinent information was posted inside it, I think a Film forum would simply die. Searches would bring up answers to questions and anything that was asked would be directed to already existing posts. At best, it would become a difficult to read, broken up FAQ. At worst, those that asked about items already covered would be chastised for not doing a good enough search, and existing members would get frustrated with the same things asked over and over again.

Yes, it'd be great for the people that enjoy it to be able to go into a room and chat about everything they know. But once they have shared everything, is there enough to justify keeping the room open? That's my ultimate concern.

Granted, I'm probably WAY over-analyzing this, but my mid is just stuck in that mode right now...

Anyway, friends don't let friends shoot sober. ;)

[another view]

Forums thrive on new content, not rehashing of the old.

True of any conversation. The philosopher Tony Soprano once said "'I remember when' is the lowest form of conversation" or something like that.

I can see this being more viable for B&W than anything else, encompassing the whole process of film selection, metering and exposure, developing, printing and scanning. The real masters spend their entire lives working on every one of these aspects and changing only one variable at a time. It's surprising to a beginner that a seemingly insignificant change can affect the process, but it can. It would take a lot more than an FAQ to explain this. Getting someone started in B&W film developing could be an article here; about the length of the Histogram article you wrote. But we know by now that the basics are only the basics.

The only changes I see in the film world are updates of established products and obscelecence of others. But still, there's almost limitless possibilities to what to do with the stuff that's out there. I've recommended the Massive Dev Chart a couple of times in the past, and usually people's first response to seeing it (after being used to the quick instructions inside the box) is "whoa..."! And that doesn't come close to all of the variables that can be adjusted to reach the desired goal. Developing is straightforward compared to printmaking too, from what I've seen.

You and I have done some of this stuff, and know that it's really not as difficult as many people think - at least standard by-the-book Tri-X in D76, etc. I had a lot of questions before I ever started and didn't have the option of taking a class on it. I don't know the answer to this, but wonder how many people are in a similar situation.