Any interest in a Film Forum at PR?

[Sebastian]

Maybe we could do a way with one too, like the Web Forum, there hasn't been a lot of activity there lately and I don't know the last time I saw Peter, the forum's moderator, online.

Brian

That's a perfect example. We have several forums that I would consider "dead" or at least of questionable value, the web one being one of them. Though If I remember correctly, I was one of the people that rooted for it originally, live and learn.

We have a core community that's largely based around friendly sharing of stories and basic advice. I think it is in the best to use that as a draw for new users rather than create splinter forums that draw users and ultimately drive them away due to inactivity. ViewFinder and several other sections of this site thrive, we should be guiding people to those areas and making them a part of what we collectively are.

[another view]

Forums thrive on new content, not rehashing of the old.

True of any conversation. The philosopher Tony Soprano once said "'I remember when' is the lowest form of conversation" or something like that.

I can see this being more viable for B&W than anything else, encompassing the whole process of film selection, metering and exposure, developing, printing and scanning. The real masters spend their entire lives working on every one of these aspects and changing only one variable at a time. It's surprising to a beginner that a seemingly insignificant change can affect the process, but it can. It would take a lot more than an FAQ to explain this. Getting someone started in B&W film developing could be an article here; about the length of the Histogram article you wrote. But we know by now that the basics are only the basics.

The only changes I see in the film world are updates of established products and obscelecence of others. But still, there's almost limitless possibilities to what to do with the stuff that's out there. I've recommended the Massive Dev Chart a couple of times in the past, and usually people's first response to seeing it (after being used to the quick instructions inside the box) is "whoa..."! And that doesn't come close to all of the variables that can be adjusted to reach the desired goal. Developing is straightforward compared to printmaking too, from what I've seen.

You and I have done some of this stuff, and know that it's really not as difficult as many people think - at least standard by-the-book Tri-X in D76, etc. I had a lot of questions before I ever started and didn't have the option of taking a class on it. I don't know the answer to this, but wonder how many people are in a similar situation.

[mtbbrian]

That's a perfect example. We have several forums that I would consider "dead" or at least of questionable value, the web one being one of them. Though If I remember correctly, I was one of the people that rooted for it originally, live and learn.

Yeah I think you were the one that lobbied for it( Just like Aaron is now), I beleive you were the first to moderate it too, if I remember correctly.
So what's the harm in trying it again with another forum.
I see lots of value in it, not just because I am film shooter.

I feel that it is what photogrpahers should learn first, so that they can appreciate and understnad the differences bewteen shooting one over the other.
I feel that it would show that PR.com is not anti-film or anything like that.
I know we aren't, but I feel that the perception out there is that PR.com is anti-film.
Brian

[Xia_Ke]

...I feel that it would show that PR.com is not anti-digital or anything like that.
I know we aren't, but I feel that the perception out there is that PR.com is anti-digital.
Brian

Do you mean anti-film?

[mtbbrian]

Do you mean anti-film?

Freudian slip!

Yes, that is just what I meant!
I need to go home now.

Brian

I'll just keep quite now.
:aureola:

[Xia_Ke]

Thank you for chiming in Sebastian I completely agree with you that there is not much that is going to change in the future in the world of film. That being said...

...The thing is, the best practices for anything in film are already well established and an entire film forum would be summed up in one well-thought out FAQ. ...

... I think this position is rather unfair. There are many basic rules of photo composition that have not and will not change. Your comment above is really not much different than saying the Photo Critique Forum could be summed up in a well thought out FAQ. There will always be Subtle differences and exceptions to the rules as well as new people always looking to learn.

The main thing I would like to know from people is do you think a Film Forum would remain active and how many of you are willing to regularly contribute to discussions on film related topics?

Aaron

[mtbbrian]

The main thing I would like to know from people is do you think a Film Forum would remain active and how many of you are willing to regularly contribute to discussions on film related topics?

Aaron

Yes and Yes.
It would certainly be as active as some of the other forums that have been added when they were new and from there could serve as an archive for such information. But who knows, it could be as active as any of the other more poplular forums. I say we go for it!
Regardless, I think it will add to our membership and have other positive effects.
Brian
Aaron for Film Forum Moderator!
:thumbsup:

[another view]

The main thing I would like to know from people is do you think a Film Forum would remain active and how many of you are willing to regularly contribute to discussions on film related topics?

Yup, it boils down to this point. Heck, we could have a forum on cat food and if it created new traffic that would help. Slightly exaggerated point but...

[mtbbrian]

Slightly exaggerated point but...

That's an understament!
I say we go for it!
Do away with some of the least active forums and add a Film one and a cat food one!
My wife and I have two cats, I could learn a thing or two about cat food!

Brian

[Sebastian]

... I think this position is rather unfair. There are many basic rules of photo composition that have not and will not change. Your comment above is really not much different than saying the Photo Critique Forum could be summed up in a well thought out FAQ. There will always be Subtle differences and exceptions to the rules as well as new people always looking to learn.

To an extent, you're correct. The difference lies in that the variety and scope of personal expression (Photo Critique) is far larger than the scope of what is ultimately a technical subject. Sure, people will share different methods and tricks. But self-expression has no bounds, whereas film does. (Some of you should be proud of me for avoiding a rant on the "rules." )

Like you said (and I tried to point out in a roundabout way) unless there is long-term vitality in the subject, it's not worth it.

My belief is that there simply is not enough to the subject to keep it viable beyond an initial spattering of growth. I vote for "not worth it."

BTW, I am LOVING this thread. It's been a while since I partook in a discussion that didn't degenerate into ridiculous name calling and personal attacks.

[Xia_Ke]

Oooo, a cat food forum. Now we're talking What about the dog food people though? Actually, I suppose if anyone had dog food questions, they could just post it in the cat food forum. It's all pet food after all...LOL

Okay, now it's a REALLY exaggerated point It's been a long day at work. Sorry, I couldn't resist

Brian for Film Forum Co-Mod

[mtbbrian]

BTW, I am LOVING this thread. It's been a while since I partook in a discussion that didn't degenerate into ridiculous name calling and personal attacks.

You're right as we all know, there won't be all that much new information on film photography, but there will always be stories and experiences to share.
Those stories should be in their own forum, so that those active in it can go there and encourage the others.
I get excited, sometimes overly excited I realize, with every film post. I am probably PR.com biggest film cheerleader.
Gimme an F!
Gimme an I!
Gimme an L!
Gimme an M!
GOOOOOOOOOOOO FILM!
:thumbsup:
This is a good thread!
Brian

[Xia_Ke]

To an extent, you're correct. The difference lies in that the variety and scope of personal expression (Photo Critique) is far larger than the scope of what is ultimately a technical subject. Sure, people will share different methods and tricks. But self-expression has no bounds, whereas film does. (Some of you should be proud of me for avoiding a rant on the "rules." )

Like you said (and I tried to point out in a roundabout way) unless there is long-term vitality in the subject, it's not worth it.

My belief is that there simply is not enough to the subject to keep it viable beyond an initial spattering of growth. I vote for "not worth it."

BTW, I am LOVING this thread. It's been a while since I partook in a discussion that didn't degenerate into ridiculous name calling and personal attacks.

I know it wasn't exactly an even comparison. I was just trying to make a point and that was the best I could come up with at the moment.

Before this ends into some Nikon vs. Canon type debate though, I'm going to try and steer this towards whether or not people think this could be a viable forum. Regardless of the popularity of digital photography, film is not going anywhere anytime soon. The previously mentioned film based sites each have more daily traffic on an off day than this site has on a good day. So, there is obviously a large contention of film users out there. Can film questions be answered in the Help Forum? Yes, they can. Having a digitally oriented site, how many people, unless you are already a regular member here, are going to post their questions there rather than go someplace else? How many new film photographers searching for help online are going to go right past PR in their quest?

So, I'll present another angle to this conversation. Can this forum handle film topics now? Yes, it can but, it couldn't hurt to try and cater a little more to film users. The site is definitely digital oriented and I don't think it would hurt to try and add a little more balance.

I'm not sure how much sense any of that made. Trying to contribute while I'm at work...LOL

[Xia_Ke]

...I am probably PR.com biggest film cheerleader...

You're getting some stiff competition in that department. Especially after going to that Ansel exhibit

[Sebastian]

Those stories should be in their own forum, so that those active in it can go there and encourage the others.

I completely disagree. These stories should be visible to everyone and belong in the busiest forum, Viewfinder. I think putting them aside into their own forum guarantees that few will see them, and even fewer will participate.

My thinking is that these experiences that you mention can draw people that might otherwise not be interested in the subject, but these same people would be unlikely to go outside their comfort zone and visit a niche forum for something that doesn't really interest them YET.

So here you'd have a bunch of interesting stories that might draw in new folks and you'd be sticking it in a place that they're unlikely to visit making sure that they'd never lay eyes on it.

IMO these specialty forums do little to expand the draw of the different areas, instead they seem sot be places where preachers preach to those already converted. If we want to expose our community to different subjects and draw new faces we need to be consolidating to show just how active and encompassing this community is. I think separate forums run counter to the desire to grow.

I think some sort of filtering would be a good thing to try. Give new people access to everything this community is about without having to wade through different portions while allowing them to either display or flag the items they are most interested in once they find a niche they'd like to stick with. Wether or not that's feasible is beyond me, but this desire to create specific forums has done little but remove active subjects from active attention and moved them to their own little corners to grow stale. I'd love to know what Photo John knows about the use the extra forums get. Just from browsing, I get the feeling that they don't get much use.

Now I'm moving away from the subject of a film forum to a broader discussion on how to keep these forums growing and, so mods please feel free to move this to a new thread if you feel so inclined.

[mtbbrian]

How many new film photographers searching for help online are going to go right past PR in their quest?

So, I'll present another angle to this conversation. Can this forum handle film topics now? Yes, it can but, it couldn't hurt to try and cater a little more to film users. The site is definitely digital oriented and I don't think it would hurt to try and add a little more balance.

Trying to contribute while I'm at work...LOL

That's hard to say, but I am sure there are some film photographers or would be film photographers that are passing by PR.com.
I feel that film photographers coming here, would be better served and will be more inclined to contribute and stick around if there was a Film Forum.
A agree a little balance is always a good thing.
Work? What's that!!?

Brian
Gimme an F!
Gimme an I!
Gimme an L!
Gimme an M!

[Sebastian]

I'm going to try and steer this towards whether or not people think this could be a viable forum....

That's what I've been trying to do all along. Here are my questions though:

A) Is it feasible to think that we can pull any traffic away from those other (film) sites?

B) If so, is yet another forum (YAF) the right way to do it?

I think the answer to A is yes, there is always the possibility of getting people that are looking for info to stick with this site or to pull away people from other sites that they're unsatisfied by for whatever reason. However when it comes to B, I just don't think that YAF has much draw or long-lasting value, for the reasons I already outlined.

So, to sum it up, I'm not anti-film, I just think the desire to segregate into YAF goes against what you are trying to achieve, which is making film shooters feel included and draw new members.

[Sebastian]

One more thing...

The site is definitely digital oriented and I don't think it would hurt to try and add a little more balance.

I don't agree with you there, this site is not digital-oriented, photography has become digital-oriented. This site is only a product of that.

[mtbbrian]

I completely disagree. These stories should be visible to everyone and belong in the busiest forum, Viewfinder.
I'd love to know what Photo John knows about the use the extra forums get. Just from browsing, I get the feeling that they don't get much use.

OK, if anything having a Film forum would make these stories and experiences easier to find, which will make it easier for new people to the web and this forum, to find.
Which in my opinion is a good thing!

I'd love to know that information too.
How to attract new poeple is a big concern of John's, he and I talk about it regularly. I am sure it is big part of his job description.
With the exception of the Web Forum I think all of the extra forums get enough traffic.
Brian

[Xia_Ke]

One more thing...

I don't agree with you there, this site is not digital-oriented, photography has become digital-oriented. This site is only a product of that.

Touché :thumbsup:

Personally, I think there is a void when it comes to the film "niche" here at PR. Any suggestions on other ways to help fill it?

[mtbbrian]

One more thing...



I don't agree with you there, this site is not digital-oriented, photography has become digital-oriented. This site is only a product of that.

Not completely though!
I am not a pro photog, so I can justify shooting film exclusively .
And I know that many pro/artistic photographers shoot both, for their money making work they choose digital and for their personal work they shoot film.
Brian

[Xia_Ke]

...I'd love to know what Photo John knows about the use the extra forums get. Just from browsing, I get the feeling that they don't get much use...

That would be very interesting to know. I'd be curious to see what the actual views per day and posts per day are in comparison to other photography forums out there. Not just APUG and RFF but, also others like dgrin or photo.net or...

[Sebastian]

Touché :thumbsup:

Personally, I think there is a void when it comes to the film "niche" here at PR. Any suggestions on other ways to help fill it?

I think there is a film void in any community that attracts mainstream photographers.

My suggestion would be to get someone who is really into film and has a decent understanding to start blogging for the site. It would show a high-level openness to the subject on the site's part while at the same time expanding the horizons of those that have written film off based on their limited past experiences. Part of what makes film increasingly obscure is the fact that no one talks about it because they think no one is interested. And as we all know, that's a pretty inaccurate view.

[Sebastian]

Not completely though!
I am not a pro photog, so I can justify shooting film exclusively .
And I know that many pro/artistic photographers shoot both, for their money making work they choose digital and for their personal work they shoot film.
Brian

Well now you're just reaffirming my point. Digital-oriented does not mean digital-exclusive, it only means digital-oriented.

[Xia_Ke]

I think there is a film void in any community that attracts mainstream photographers.

My suggestion would be to get someone who is really into film and has a decent understanding to start blogging for the site. It would show a high-level openness to the subject on the site's part while at the same time expanding the horizons of those that have written film off based on their limited past experiences. Part of what makes film increasingly obscure is the fact that no one talks about it because they think no one is interested. And as we all know, that's a pretty inaccurate view.

Well, I would love to be the one to do it but, I've barely scratched the surface of film. Yay, so I can develop black & white film. Anyone who can follow a recipe and keep time can do that. Which leads me to one of my concerns if we started a film forum and if we get new members from it. Sure, the knowledge base here can handle the basics of picking film, picking cameras, basic development but, how deep does the knowledge base go? If someone comes here looking for answers on doing tintypes or wet plate processes are we going to be able to help them or will they end up going elsewhere because even though we have a place to discuss techniques, there isn't enough of a knowledge base for people to get their questions answered. I would love to discuss topics like those and learn all the different processes but, right now I wouldn't even know where to begin.