Who says girls can't play

[JSPhoto]

Girls highschool softball.

[mtbkanata]

What game is that? One player looks like they have a Tennis ball!

[JSPhoto]

What game is that? One player looks like they have a Tennis ball!

Uh, nope, not a tennis ball. Indiana girls high school softball, the IHSAA requires them to use a yellow ball instead of white as it is easier to see.

John

[mtbkanata]

Serious? I never knew a baseball was hard to see.. ;) Guess that's like the indoor soccer balls that look like big tennis balls.. Oh well, good shot anyway!

[Sebastian]

Why is it so noisy? Looks like it was shot at 1600, you're using the 1D right?

[JSPhoto]

Why is it so noisy? Looks like it was shot at 1600, you're using the 1D right?

There are several reasons that this shot is noisey. 1 it was shot at low quality with junk glass. Two it was very overcast and the ISO was bumped up but I forget what to. And finally this shot was recovered from a crashed drive. And yes it was shot with a 1D.

One note about flash cards: Always format cards before using them, this can also cause unwanted noise!

John

[Sebastian]

One note about flash cards: Always format cards before using them, this can also cause unwanted noise!

John

Thanks for replying, but the above statement couldn't be further from the truth. Digital storage is digital storage, it is either perfect, or not. If it is not perfect, basically if the medium is damaged, the image in unreadable or at least has errors. Formatting beforehand has NO EFFECT whatsoever on the quality of the images. Whoever told you that has no concept of how a computer and its storage works, which is essentially what we're all using to take pictures with.

If you forma cards to try to keep noise down, you are wasting your time on something that is physically impossible. However, formatting in camera regularly is a great way to maintain the integrity of the media, just like formatting a hard drive once or twice a year does.

That's what a lot of digital shooters don't get, we are now using portable PCs, and a thourough understanding of how a computer works is necessary to understand how and why things happen when they do...

EDIT: To make it easier to understand, digital storage deals with 0s and 1s, ON and OFF basically. There is no inbetween, that's why if a copy is made, it's in every way shape and form identical to the original. A file will be stored in the way it was sent off form the sensor and processing engine, the state of the media will have no effect on it, it literally can't, with the exception of errors. If the 0s and 1s on the card are not switching properly, that means the data that is stored will be different that what was sent from the sensor/processor. This does NOT mean quality will degrade, it is far worse than that, the image will be unreadable at worst, or have huge areas of it missing or garbled at best. There is no inbetween. It'd be nice if there was, since we basically can't afford to have faulty media or we'll lose one or more images entirely. Film was nice in this respect, a scratch could be removed, a fried CF card is basically garbage, along with the images on it.

[SunnySideUp]

Whoever told you that has no concept of how a computer and its storage works, which is essentially what we're all using to take pictures with.

Sebastion -
Although I agree with you completely about digital media... I just bought a Canon A80 and the documentation said to format the flash card before use, and I bought a 256 card from ScanDisk and it also stated to format the card before use. It never really stated why but it did say that if I didn't that the card could give me problems.

So if any one is sending the wrong message out it seems to be the companies.

[Sebastian]

Sebastion -
Although I agree with you completely about digital media... I just bought a Canon A80 and the documentation said to format the flash card before use, and I bought a 256 card from ScanDisk and it also stated to format the card before use. It never really stated why but it did say that if I didn't that the card could give me problems.

So if any one is sending the wrong message out it seems to be the companies.

Sunny,

In my post I mention that's it's necessary to format the cards to maintain integrity of the file system, that is why the manufacturers recommend that. That, however, is different than formatting them to ensure image quality.

Just like using scandisk on your hard drive keeps the sectors in order, so does a format of a CF card. It's prefferable to refresh the file system regularly than to leave it sit until an error occurs. Once the error occurs, your data is in jeopardy, so it's a preventative measure.

[Peter_AUS]

SunnySideUp,

What the "Format before use" meant was to do so before you first use it, to ensure that it is formated properly, much like formating a Hard Drive the first time you use it.

It doesn't mean format it each time you are going to use it, what a completely wast of time.

I totally agree with Seb and his informative scriptures on the matter. I have been in the computer industry for well on 20 years now and grown up with most of the technology that has, is and will be used in the future as it is deployed.

These are all basic steps taken each time one buys something that is new. Computer shops if they take the effort to provide good customer service, set up computers for their customers initially, so the customer doesn't have to go through the process themselves, unless they have indicated that. Well certainly that is how I have always treated my customers, and never had an issue.

Compact Flash cards, be they, Sandisk, Lexar, IBM, etc should all be formated and ready to use from the moment you buy them, but alas, they do have their own idiocyncracies built in to them and the advice is to format them first when you get them. Whether you want to format them everytime you are going to use them is totally an individual persons choice, not something a company is going to advocate everyone do, otherwise we would all be formating our Hard Drives before we wrote something to them, wouldn't we.

Digital Cameras are exactly the same as mini computers, palm pilots, data storage devices, exactly the same, all the difference is they take pictures, some good, some excellent and some shockers as we all have done, past, present and future I am sure.

[JSPhoto]

Seb,

I suggest you read up on digital storage, even Canon TELLS you to format the media between each use because failure to do so will cause noisy pictures.

John

[Sebastian]

Seb,

I suggest you read up on digital storage, even Canon TELLS you to format the media between each use because failure to do so will cause noisy pictures.

John

Well then, I suggest you learn as to WHY they suggest you do it, and as to HOW computers work.

The reasons for formatting the cards have been covered several times already in the posts above. Don't waste your time and the time of the forum members here by spreading information that is blatantly false. Any other forum and you would have been flamed to death. Here we tried to educate you on a misconception you apparently have. Take it or leave it...

[JSPhoto]

Well then, I suggest you learn as to WHY they suggest you do it, and as to HOW computers work.

The reasons for formatting the cards have been covered several times already in the posts above. Don't waste your time and the time of the forum members here by spreading information that is blatantly false. Any other forum and you would have been flamed to death. Here we tried to educate you on a misconception you apparently have. Take it or leave it...

Well actually it is pretty simple, when you delete images from a CF card all you are doing is removing the file name, not the actual data as you do in a format operation. Leaving the data causes some confusion in the card and causes added data that can be viewed and is viewed as noise. It's like a bleed through, and it appears as noise. Canon advised all owners of certain cameras, the 1D included to format cards between each use because of this problem. Other manufactueres have the same problem, they just didn't come out and say so..
As for being flamed to death, only the ignorant will do that, or the know it alls. This NOT a misconseption of mine, it is a real problem that exists, the only misconseption is on those who do not believe it, that I cannot help.
I had another non-believer about a month or two ago, the staff photographer at a newspaper who rarely formated his cards was complaing about excessive noise on his pics one night and I told him to format between each use. He didn't believe me and checked into it and found I was right. His photos no longer have excess noise and he formats them after each use.
If you take a card, shoot a bunch of shots, load them on the computer. Then delete the photos from the card, shoot the same scene again, load them on the computer then format the card and shoot the scene again. Now compare all the photos at various zooms on your computer, the shots after the format are cleaner than those after a delete.
The higher the ISO the higher the noise, but when your ISO 1250 shots start looking like the one above it is due to an unformatted card, although that isn't the reason in this case as this is a recovered photo from a damaged hard drive.

John

[Sebastian]

John,

It's simply impossible. I am serious, go ask Chuck Westfall if you don't believe me. A digital file can not, in any way shape or form, have "bleed through," it can not mix with another file, it simply can not happen. If it was an analog recording on tape, it'd be one thing, but with digital, the way it is stored, read and handled, on ANY medium, the scenario you propose is simply impossible.

This is not a "problem" and no one is not talking about it. It's simply a matter of how computers work, and no personal exploration on your part can change the facts. I will not bore you with my background or why I feel qualified to make these statements. Like I said, bruing the question up with Chuck Westfall, email an engineer, ask an engineer in a nearby college, they will all tell you the same thing. Media files do not blend into each other causing noise. The only blending that occurs is called cross-linking, when files share the same physical space on a storage media. This causes read/write errors, misrepresentation of free space, and potentially garbled files. We are not dealing with an analog medium here, this is black and white, zeroes and ones, nothing inbetween, no blending, anywhere.

[Sebastian]

John,

Either way, it's a technicality. I don't want us to start off on a bad foot. I respect your experience and I believe you will be an asset to this forum. I tend to get hung up on details, especially when it comes to computers and digital related things. I'm sorry for pushing it, let's just agree to disagree and move on.

Looking forward to seeign more of your work.

[Peter_AUS]

Hey guys this is getting a little bit out of hand.

Files can't physically intermingle with each other on CF cards, hard disk drives or any other media that writes in 1's and 0's, it just can't happen, unless someone goes into the files and physically changes the bits.

JSPhoto, I don't know where you are from and to come into the forums with so few posts and expect people to take what you are saying as Gospel, just won't happen.

Obviously you aren't reading post properly and the discussion is starting to head in a direction it should never have headed before.

I'm one of the Moderators in these forums and as such, as you to respect the people that visit here and listen to what others have to say and learn about photography.

If Canon have suggested that you format your CF card between uses, then you are welcome to do so, it would seem Canon has an issue with their cameras writing to cards and the problem is within the camera and the way it writes, not within the CF card itself. If that is the case, and I own two Canon Digital cameras and haven't had this issue happen to me, in two years and with 4 different CF cards, then hey, who is the Tech support person that told you that. I think they need to go back to support school and learn a bit more about what is technically incorrect.

I have contacted Canon here in Australia and they haven't a clue about what your saying and haven't received any directive from parent company about this problem occuring. Maybe it is a Northern Hemisphere thing, where drains run up hill instead of downhill like it does here.

I too will be looking forward to seeing more of your work as well.

[jchristopher]

Seb,

I suggest you read up on digital storage, even Canon TELLS you to format the media between each use because failure to do so will cause noisy pictures.

John

This is a joke, right? You have a 1D and you think that noisy pictures come from not formatting the media before use?