Photo critique group?

[ginsberg]

The other day I searched Google using the following terms: photo, critique, forum. The search yielded 318,000 hits. That represents a hell of a lot of photographers and a huge number of photographs. Then I picked several forums and and looked randomly at critiques. Twenty percent of my small sample mentioned the word "composition," 10% the word "perspective," and an additional 10% used the term "lighting." The remaining 60% said things like, "I like your photo."

Now, I assume that a great many people who participate in these 318,000 sites are familiar with the rule of thirds, and many more know about cropping and f-stops and depth of field. But, and here's the important point, very few of their photographs are memorable. So did they miss something? Is it possible that there is more to becoming a good photographer than participating in forums where the majority of critiques don't mention anything but the author's opinion of the photo? I believe there is.

So I would like to engage a group of people to: 1) study and discuss the elements of a photograph such as unity, negative space, viewpoint, theme; 2) find examples (look at the work of established masters); 3) carry out assignments based on various elements of photography and give each other informed (meaningful) critiques.

Cheers,
Ed

[Chunk]

The other day I searched Google using the following terms: photo, critique, forum. The search yielded 318,000 hits. That represents a hell of a lot of photographers and a huge number of photographs. Then I picked several forums and and looked randomly at critiques. Twenty percent of my small sample mentioned the word "composition," 10% the word "perspective," and an additional 10% used the term "lighting." The remaining 60% said things like, "I like your photo."

Now, I assume that a great many people who participate in these 318,000 sites are familiar with the rule of thirds, and many more know about cropping and f-stops and depth of field. But, and here's the important point, very few of their photographs are memorable. So did they miss something? Is it possible that there is more to becoming a good photographer than participating in forums where the majority of critiques don't mention anything but the author's opinion of the photo? I believe there is.

So I would like to engage a group of people to: 1) study and discuss the elements of a photograph such as unity, negative space, viewpoint, theme; 2) find examples (look at the work of established masters); 3) carry out assignments based on various elements of photography and give each other informed (meaningful) critiques.

Cheers,
Ed

Sorry Ed, you're a little late.
The Initial post insulting everyone and their work and then suggesting s new forum to lead us all to artistic truth and blessedness has already been done over on the viewfinder forum. Join the fray over there and leave us perveyors of immemorable photos blissfully alone.

[ginsberg]

Sorry Ed, you're a little late.
The Initial post insulting everyone and their work and then suggesting s new forum to lead us all to artistic truth and blessedness has already been done over on the viewfinder forum. Join the fray over there and leave us perveyors of immemorable photos blissfully alone.

Thannks for the information. I posted my reply in the Viewfinder forum. However, I haven't the slightest idea of how I insulted anyone.

Cheers,

Ed

[Chunk]

Thannks for the information. I posted my reply in the Viewfinder forum. However, I haven't the slightest idea of how I insulted anyone.

Cheers,

Ed

It could have been your important point that I found insulting. I went to your site to look around and found some very interesting photos. Many of them remind me of shots I've seen in the photographyreview.com forums, galleries, and projects over the years. Some of them remind me of shots I've taken and shared here (high praise, huh?). In fact I'd say I like your photos a lot, but I'm not sure that would be well received. I don't, however, find them any more memorable than a lot of the shots around here.

All your stated goals seem to be much like those of people around here. Any of the subjects you want to talk about can be talked about on viewfinder and you'll find that many of us will enjoy joining in. Just start a thread. Join in with critiques as well - we never have too many opinions. The critiques you have made have been insightful and helpful. I'd like to see more of them.

[Irish]

Is it possible that there is more to becoming a good photographer than participating in forums where the majority of critiques don't mention anything but the author's opinion of the photo? I believe there is.

So I would like to engage a group of people to: 1) study and discuss the elements of a photograph such as unity, negative space, viewpoint, theme; 2) find examples (look at the work of established masters); 3) carry out assignments based on various elements of photography and give each other informed (meaningful) critiques.

Cheers,
Ed

Hello Ed

I agree with your what you say to a point. I think you state the obvious about aquiring the skills to become a good photographer but many of us here come to share our photographic experiences and have a little fun along the learning path. I too prefer an honest and "meaningful" critique of my images rather than just a pat on the back. I have learnt much in a short time from such critiques and discussions at this very forum but I also like the banter and good humour and support that is part of the forum too.

I think there are a number of people at this critique forum and at viewfinder that are already "engaged" to do as you and many others of us would like. I have to agree with Chunk......get the ball rolling.....give some serious critique to the images here and start some meaningful discussions if that is what you so desire. Start a topic (asssignment) of your choice in viewfinder formum and lead the discussion. There are many here who will take up the challenge I am sure.

Andy S

[Trevor Ash]

It could have been your important point that I found insulting. I went to your site to look around and found some very interesting photos. Many of them remind me of shots I've seen in the photographyreview.com forums, galleries, and projects over the years. Some of them remind me of shots I've taken and shared here (high praise, huh?). In fact I'd say I like your photos a lot, but I'm not sure that would be well received. I don't, however, find them any more memorable than a lot of the shots around here.

All your stated goals seem to be much like those of people around here. Any of the subjects you want to talk about can be talked about on viewfinder and you'll find that many of us will enjoy joining in. Just start a thread. Join in with critiques as well - we never have too many opinions. The critiques you have made have been insightful and helpful. I'd like to see more of them.

Ed, I'm sorry your post was received in the way it was. Understand though that the other thread mentioned by Chunk did stir a lot of emotions. I imagine that carried over into this thread as well. That's probably what's happening here with this thread. I wouldn't worry too much about it, and personally I'm glad to see you posting with us all.

[ginsberg]

Chunk,
Nowhere did I say that my photographs were good, bad, great or anything else.

There seems to be a, I think, a false correlation between being a great photographer and being able to teach. (And I'm not saying I'm a great teacher. This is just one of my pet peeves). Think about, for example, great athletes. Are all of their coaches equally great athletes? Are all music teachers better musicians than all of their students? And so on for virtually every field.

I don't want to just have a discussion group though. And that's why I'm posting this. I'm looking for people who want to be active towards a common goal. I would like people to research as well as discuss various aspects of a photograph (line, shape, texture, negative space...), look at relevant work of master photographers to see how these concepts were applied, perhaps do a shared assignment, etc. So, I want to start by seeing if anyone is interested.

Cheers,

Ed

[ginsberg]

I have just read two articles about composition. The first, a discussion about painting, also applies, in many instances, to photography.

*The photograph should contain a center of interest The subordinate and surrounding elements should direct or lead the viewer to that center of interest by means of pointers and visual paths. This area should not be blocked, not even partially. This will diminish its importance.

*You may want to include a second center of interest. I don't condone this practice though unless you are very skilled. There is a risk that they will compete with each other. other. Do not place one on top of another. Only one should predominate in size. The best way to place them will be across each other in a diagonal format. In case this can't be done then placing them horizontally is the second option

(my comment. There are a lot of photographs which make this mistake. There is something of interest in the near foreground and something of equal interest in the background and nothing connecting the two.)

*Avoid pushing the viewer out of the photograph. This can be avoided if the elements don't point towards the edge or run out of the picture, such as tree trunks, roads, and rivers. You can add "stops" to avoid the viewer from exiting.

*Avoid "kissing" the edges. (my comment. What the author means is that the subject shouldn’t end at the same place a building or tree in the background ends.)

*Buildings and other man made structures such as concrete, wood, etc. will be more interesting if you make them look weathered by adding texture such as cracks, parts peeling off etc. After all they would have more of a story to tell.

second article

*If you are shooting landscapes or other immovable objects then you must compose the picture by moving yourself and deciding where to place the point(s) of interest in your picture.

There are various compositional rules (I prefer to think of them as guidelines) to help you. These rules will help you to compose pleasing pictures, however, you will often find that a really striking picture will show a blatant disregard for the rules. Once you are aware of the rules then break them as often as you want but, at least, know you are breaking them and why.

Rule of Thirds
Landscape photographers are particularly fond of this one, but it works well for many types of subjects. The rule of thirds simply says that, instead of placing the main focus of interest in the centre of the frame, which gets a little boring, that you look to position it on an intersection of the thirds. That is to say one third up and one third in or two thirds up and one third in etc.

Using Diagonals
Setting your subject matter on a diagonal will almost always make for a more dynamic picture. Even if this is an invisible diagonal that draws your eye between two points. Move around the subject (not too close in the case of my crocodiles) and look for a diagonal

Cropping
The most common mistake people make when taking pictures is not filling the frame with the subject. If it's a photo of granny waving from the doorstep, let's just see granny and the door, not half the houses in the street with a small granny shaped blob in the middle. I think the culprit for this phenomenon is the focusing aid in the centre of the viewfinder. Most cameras have some sort of circle or rectagle etched onto the glass and we are inclined to think, in our less thoughtful moments, that this is the whole picture area. Take a moment to glance around the viewfinder to see what you have got at the edges and especially in the corners. Watch out for clutter in the background, that lampost growing out of granny's head. Make sure that everything in the viewfinder is there because you want it to be

Can't I leave the cropping 'til later?

If you are printing your own pictures then you get a second chance to get the cropping right but, don't rely on this to make up for sloppy camera technique. If you crop your pictures afterwards in the computer or in the darkroom, you are throwing away quality. You are wasting some of those precious pixels that you paid so much for. What's the point in having a camera with five million pixels if you are only going to use three million of them?

Having decided to photograph it, I have to decide what I want to say.
A walk around the subject to look at it from different angles will always pay dividends.

Viewpoint
Selecting your viewpoint, the position from which you photograph the subject, is a very important part of composition and one that some people pay very little attention to. When taking a photo of a group of friends, how often do you move around the group looking for the best angle?

The first, most obvious difference between one viewpoint and another is the background. If you are photgraphing a subject that cannot easily be moved, the only way to change what is in the background is to choose a different viewpoint.

So what do you agree with? Disagree with? Think is important, etc

Cheers,
Ed

[another view]

Ed, I think I understand what you're saying. But, most of us here don't give someone a critique just saying something like "it's pretty", etc.

Some people have complained that their images were looked at several times but had no comments. A lot of people (sometimes myself included) need to look at an image a couple of times before they are ready to critique it. Spending some time and really thinking about how you feel about an image instead of just giving someone a quick pat on the back is a whole different critique. It's a real critique. If I post something here, then I want to know the good and the bad. Maybe I've got a different kind of shot that I like, and just want to see if I'm nuts or it really is a good shot. If I do have a shot just to share, and don't really want/need people to spend time with a critique then I'll post it in Viewfinder.

The articles you post are a good tutorial on composition, regardless of whether you're looking at photography, watercolor or any other medium. However, every image is unique and it's hard to give something a negative critique because it breaks rules. A lot of great shots do (trying to think quickly of an example...) like Henri Cartier Bresson's shot of the boy jumping over the puddle. Can't remember the correct name of the shot, but he's on the right side of the frame and jumping out. That's (IMO) what makes the shot. Also a great facial expression on a not technically perfect portrait, etc. I guess my point is that there has to be a good reason to break the rules, but it can be done. A jazz drummer told me once, "you gotta know the rules before you can break 'em". Good advice, I'd say.

[ginsberg]

(a quote from Another View) A lot of great shots do (trying to think quickly of an example...)(break the rules) like Henri Cartier Bresson's shot of the boy jumping over the puddle. Can't remember the correct name of the shot, but he's on the right side of the frame and jumping out. That's (IMO) what makes the shot. Also a great facial expression on a not technically perfect portrait, etc. I guess my point is that there has to be a good reason to break the rules, but it can be done. A jazz drummer told me once, "you gotta know the rules before you can break 'em". Good advice, I'd say.{end of quote)



I'm confused. Most of your reply is that its okay to break the rules. Your last statement is "you gotta know the rules before you can break 'em". Are you advocating breaking the rules or learning the rules?

Look. I don't know why this calls for so much arguement. All I'm saying is that those (of us) who don't know the rules and how to apply them might want to form a group to learn the rules and how to apply them. If you aren't interested, fine. You don't have to tell everyone why you're not interested. If you are interested please indicate that you are and let's go to work. If no one responds the idea will die.

I am not claiming to be a great photographer or a good teacher or even a nice person. So let's quit argueing about everything. I don't have an interest in leading the group, becoming a moderator, running for political office, joining any particular club or organization... I simply want to know if anyone is interested in getting together to look at factors that help make for a good photograph.

Ed

[another view]

Are you advocating breaking the rules or learning the rules?

Both, actually. I'm trying to say that if you break the rules, there should be a reason you're doing it. The odds are like those of winning the lottery that someone will take a picture with no thought of the composition (including standard composition rules) and get a great shot.

I'm not trying to start an arguement. I think it is a good idea to get a group together for this. There are a lot of advantages to a small group doing this that I can see. Mainly, you'd get to know the other members pretty well and understand where they are coming from with their critique. This is one thing that's difficult with the main critique board, if someone critiques my work I don't know what their frame of reference is, what their work looks like (I don't mean "good" or "bad", what is their style), what they had for breakfast, etc (ok, maybe stretching it a bit). It also might give a little competition among members, not to win a prize or anything - but make each person work harder to make their shots as good as they could be. I know I'd probably be motivated that way if I did it.

So yes, I might be interested in something like this. I don't know how much time I'd have for it, but maybe a theme a month - with maybe a few months notice. I was in a local camera club that had annual schedules showing what the subjects of critiques and contests would be, that way you'd have plenty of time to get your work together - although the hope was that you'd go out and shoot specifically for it. That could be a rule, new work only.

[Lava Lamp]

Hi there, Ed.

First, welcome!

Second, I might suggest that you jump in and start offering the well reasoned critiques you seem to be able to offer and you might inspire others to the same. What we have here to seems to work prety well for the community we have. There are some pros, some artists, some beginners, and some whose objective is just to get good clear photos of the people and events in their lives. Mostly, the people here want to get better and help each other out as best they can given the time they have.

Third, post something! I'll do my best to offer you a meaningful critique, as I'm sure others will.

[Elysian]

Twenty percent of my small sample mentioned the word "composition," 10% the word "perspective," and an additional 10% used the term "lighting." The remaining 60% said things like, "I like your photo."

Let me sum it up what you wrote:

20% composition
10% perspective
10% lighting
60% I like your photo

How large was your sample Ed? 10 reviews?

60% liked the photos and where are the 40% who didn't like them? The ones who mentioned something about composition, perspective and lighting?

I think have a good reason to say that statistics is not your strongest point Ed, correct me if I'm wrong.

Good luck with your forum though, but don't forget; there's a lot more than rules and guidelines, the same rules and guidelines you find in any descent photography book.
Does this lead to memorable shots like you wrote? That all depends on what you call memorable shots Ed...

[opus]

Hi Ed!

I am not interested in being part of a critique club. That implies more time than I'm willing to commit right now. As it is I'm forced by time constraints to check this board only occasionally and pick out only the titles that immediately grab my interest to look at within a short period of time. I have had more time in the past and I anticipate having more time in the future, but I cannot commit to that kind of time on a regular basis.

But what I think WOULD be helpful is to have, in the new forum, an Educational Sticky thread where we can post information we've found just like you posted above. Someone will post the Rule of Thirds, someone might post the Golden Triangle (??), etc. Then we can read it and maybe find something new, something we didn't know, and go out and give it a try.

[kerriann85]

So I would like to engage a group of people to: 1) study and discuss the elements of a photograph such as unity, negative space, viewpoint, theme; 2) find examples (look at the work of established masters); 3) carry out assignments based on various elements of photography and give each other informed (meaningful) critiques.

Cheers,
Ed[/QUOTE]


Hey Ed,
I'm not chasing you away from this web site, but you might like to take a look at this one: http://www.morguefile.com/archive/classroom.php
There is a discussion on "rules" and such, then an assignment, then people can post thier "homework" photos and there are disscussions about them. Is this the kind of thing you're talking about? I've only looked around there briefly. Wish I had more time to spend.