What is a Christian?

[christiansoldier]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, reverberation.

It will make a great movie.


PR Creed

Thou shalt not commit copyright infringement.

fstop is not the same as abstinence.

My camera is not out of focus, you are.

[reverberation]

Thank you for sharing your perspective, reverberation.

It will make a great movie.


PR Creed

Thou shalt not commit copyright infringement.

fstop is not the same as abstinence.

My camera is not out of focus, you are.

Nice post. I know about my eyes, and about my faith, which I use to judge a moment. I don't want to engage in the politics of religion, used in breaking men down more than building them up. Its just my opinion which I base on the perspective my experience gives me. I understand your perspective and it is one I would share were I in your position.

[jgredline]

Oh boy, Javier, are you for real? You couldn't respond to a single thing I said, you are just being exceptionally irrelevant.

I'm answering your questions, but your not liking what I am saying which is simply quoting scripture...Also understand, you are not the only one I am responding to.

Okay, I think your interpretation of the Bible is an exploitation of mortal anxieties and the clinging to a false fantasy life. You COULD say 2+2=4, but you aren't saying that. What you are saying is, 2+2=youneedtomakejesuschristyourlordandsaviororgotohel l. It is a wrong conclusion.

Sorry, but I am not saying that. The bible says that..You have a choice to make...heaven or hell?

"Q" is a heretical Gospel? Its the hypothesis for the source of Matthew and Luke, and possibly Mark as well. It shows how open minded you are, you dismiss somethings merit before you know a thing about it. You always just give your absolute unthinking allegiance to the church in regards to everything?

Sorry, but ''Q'' is a phantom document...I looked at its origins briefly many years ago, but there was nothing really to look at...As for my allegiance, it is Primarily to God and his word...Sorry this offends you, but the bible has a habit of doing that to people who do not like it.

[jgredline]

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. It has been a little busy for me.

To answer SOME of the questions:

While I don't especially like labels (which only put people in pigeon holes that don't accurately reflect their views), I suppose I could be described as just a smidgen to the liberal side of centre. Moderate is what some would call me, others would describe me as representing a thoughtful type of Christianity. I would certainly not belong in the fundamentalist camp, but nor would i belong in the ultra-liberal camp. I hope that helps.

I will need to ponder this a little...How do you feel about Pauls letters..We have avoided them in this thread and I have tried not to bring them in because most liberals don't like them. They say they are not inspired...It scares me that you think that Genesis and it sounds like much of the bible is a metaphor...

Re annihilation/hell/etc - there is a fair bit of biblical material which uses the language of "exclusion" (eg the parable of the foolish virgins, etc) - the concept of "hell" (to use the convenient term) would, to me, speak of exclusion from God - a spiritual darkness if you like. To be where God is not, would be hell to me. This leads on to annihilation which I suppose is the closest to my own view - not to exist at all is the ultimate "being where God is not".

What do you make of Jesus teachings in Matt 25:46? Was Jesus not being honest? In my opinion to hold to annihilation would cheapen what Jesus did on the cross...

As for "universal salvation" - it would be a nice thing to believe in! In the end though, there will always be those who do not ultimately wish to dwell in goodness and God, I think, would respect that. To "save" even those who did not wish it would be an intrusion into our free will. Having said that, my view of it would certainly be a lot broader than "heaven only contains those who sign up explicitly to Jesus".

Please explain another way...I look forward to your answer..

Bottom line - I think that there will be a lot more in the Kingdom that some of us think. After all, God is merciful and forgiving and who knows what a person's response will be when face to face with him? That is not saying that (in your phrase) "all roads lead to heaven" - but it is saying, maybe, that God sees the roads we travel on a little more clearly than we do.

That will do for now
Mike

Except God is also HOLY and is just...He must punish sin...Again Romans...
I look forward to reading your answers.

[Solo]

Mike, thanks for that post, your last two questions really bring this subject into focus for me.

Personally, I consider myself a Christian because I follow the one commandment that Jesus gave.
I don't believe in those others because there are ten of them.
Any being that created the big bang and has seen all time would not need that many letters to give good direction,
a simple slogan would clearly be the best way to communicate effectively
through time and culture, at least in my opinion. My perspective.
I would vote for it as the best advice ever given anyone
who happened to be spinning
on a large lump of rock
with a small atmosphere
through a vacuum
around a flaming
concentration of gas.

Hello Reverberation.

I am interested in knowing what you consider to be the "one commandment that Jesus gave."

According to the only books that reveals Jesus Christ to us are the books written by the original witnesses of him and his works. I would like to share with you the commandment that Jesus answered as being the "great" commandment, and the second "like unto it" commandment; which all of the commandments of the law and the prophets hang upon these two "great" commandments.

Which of these two, and the other "ten" do you consider unnecessary to obey today?

34 But when the Pharisees had heard that he had put the Sadducees to silence, they were gathered together. 35 Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, 36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law? 37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. 40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets. Matthew 22:34-40 KJV

Following are the "Ten Commandments" given to us in Exodus, chapter 20:

1. 'You shall have no other gods before Me.'
   
2. 'You shall not make for yourself a carved image--any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth.'
   
3. 'You shall not take the name of the LORD your God in vain.'
   
4. 'Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy.'
   
5. 'Honor your father and your mother.'
   
6. 'You shall not murder.'
   
7. 'You shall not commit adultery.'
   
8. 'You shall not steal.'
   
9. 'You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.'
   
10. 'You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, nor his male servant, nor his female servant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor's.'

Thank you,
Michael

PS. Obeying the ten commandments do not make an individual a Christian.

[Anbesol]

reverberation, You are most welcome and I for one look forward to conversing with you....I need to get to some of the other threads here and in particular anbesol, but wanted to extend an olive branch..On a second note, I have known and been a part of folks leaving different religions and to be honest, I see no difference between satanism and say budism...

You've said a lot of dumb things on here, but this, javier, takes the cake. You are positively clueless about what Buddhism is, and you'd be well served to not speak about it as if you knew a single thing. If you want to insult Buddhism, at least have some minor education, calling it 'satanism' is the sensationalism of fear-mongering better-than-you small-minded crap. Honestly, your theology is more aligned with Satanism than Buddhism ever could be. The number one philosophy of Satanism is self, treating the self, indulging, submitting, and exclusive interest in self. The number one philosophy of Buddhism is the reality of no-self. Honestly, it couldn't be more opposite, your theology is more interested in self than any Buddhist philosophy at any stretch. Also - try spelling Buddhism correctly. You have crossed a line here and I won't stand for it, I suggest that you retract your ignorant remark. You are stepping way outside your boundaries and into a territory you are absolutely clueless about.

Javier - I'm done even discussing a single thing with you, if you are so ignorantly, arrogantly bold to say something this insipid and insane, than a conversation with you is a seriously pointless endeavor.

[jgredline]

Hi folks.
There are some things that are crystal clear in the scriptures...Many folks do not believe the bible to be accurate, yet for the past 2000 YEARS nobody has been able to disprove it as is evidenced by it's survival....While there are problems with translations that are translated by mere men, the original Hebrew and Greek manuscripts are perfect....One only need to look at the prophecies...All that are contained with in the 66 books of the bible have all come to pass except for the ones still to come.....Hopefully we can discuss these in another thread...
Many different religions and ideas have been brought up in this thread and I believe we should look at all of them....for now I leave you with a few verses to ponder...

Exod 20:5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

Exod 34:14 (for you shall worship no other god, for the Lord, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God),

Deut 5:9 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me,

God will NOT share his thrown with anyone....Not budha, no one...


People like to quote Mt 22:37-40Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” . ....People understand that this is in addition to the other commandments....Jesus said this not me.....

Mt 5:17-20
17 “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill. 18 For assuredly, I say to you, till heaven and earth pass away, one jot or one tittle will by no means pass from the law till all is fulfilled. 19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven.

[christiansoldier]

Javier - I'm done even discussing a single thing with you, if you are so ignorantly, arrogantly bold to say something this insipid and insane, than a conversation with you is a seriously pointless endeavor.

As far as I am aware, you haven't cut me out of the dialog, yet.

I'd be interested in your defense of the authenticity of Thomas in light of my illustrating that it is, indeed, in direct opposition to God's Word.

[Anbesol]

Javier - stop it, your arrogance is only exceeded by your ignorance. Dont you dare mention the name of Buddha again, have some respect, and don't ever bring up his name again in your deluded self-centered ego-maniacal assertions.

Soldier - in the same sense that Mt Mk Lk and Jn are also in "direct opposition to God's word." I know what you are getting at, but its something you let slide in the New Testament and call it 'New Covenant", then something you criticize in Thomas. You are holding it up to a double standard.

[christiansoldier]


People like to quote Mt 22:37-40Jesus said to him, ‘You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘You shall love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.” . ....People understand that this is in addition to the other commandments....Jesus said this not me.....

And, of course ALL means ALL. No room for /'s

I seem to recall scripture regarding the inability to serve two masters, and not being luke warm.

Sitting on the fence won't get anyone into heaven nor save anyone from hell. Like it or don't...believe it or don't.

I don't just submit to authority, so I don't care if the bible would say such nonsense, if it DID say it, than the bible is flawed. If someone says "Bow to my authority or go to hell", I will politely request said authority to sit and spin, no matter who it is.

No one can cram anything down your throat, but, some friendly advice... don't tell God to go sit and spin, politely or not.

[christiansoldier]

Soldier - in the same sense that Mt Mk Lk and Jn are also in "direct opposition to God's word." I know what you are getting at, but its something you let slide in the New Testament and call it 'New Covenant", then something you criticize in Thomas. You are holding it up to a double standard.

You've lost me. Can you clarify? Scripture, maybe?

[Anbesol]

No one can cram anything down your throat, but, some friendly advice... don't tell God to go sit and spin, politely or not.

Well, I don't think God is honestly a petty self-centered fool, so if someone told me that, it clearly wouldn't come from God. So, I'd be telling the person who wishes to hold the domination of illusion over God to sit and spin.

[Anbesol]

You've lost me. Can you clarify? Scripture, maybe?

The illustration I already made with Jesus protecting Mary. It was in "direct opposition" to the old testament law, but you let it slide and call it New Covenant, but you wouldn't offer the same to a fresh new idea portrayed in Thomas? As I said, you are holding it to a double standard.

[Solo]

Technically, it was Tacitus who used the word, referring in his history to the Neronic period, so it's a moot point whether or not Nero himself actually used the word. Clearly though, Tacitus was aware of it.

Just me being pedantic
Mike

The first use of the word "Christian" to describe the disciples of Jesus Christ was used by those of Antioch during the reign of Claudius Caesar.

25 Then departed Barnabas to Tarsus, for to seek Saul: 26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch. Acts 11:26 KJV

[jgredline]

You've said a lot of dumb things on here, but this, javier, takes the cake. You are positively clueless about what Buddhism is, and you'd be well served to not speak about it as if you knew a single thing. If you want to insult Buddhism, at least have some minor education, calling it 'satanism' is the sensationalism of fear-mongering better-than-you small-minded crap. Honestly, your theology is more aligned with Satanism than Buddhism ever could be. The number one philosophy of Satanism is self, treating the self, indulging, submitting, and exclusive interest in self. The number one philosophy of Buddhism is the reality of no-self. Honestly, it couldn't be more opposite, your theology is more interested in self than any Buddhist philosophy at any stretch. Also - try spelling Buddhism correctly. You have crossed a line here and I won't stand for it, I suggest that you retract your ignorant remark. You are stepping way outside your boundaries and into a territory you are absolutely clueless about.

Javier - I'm done even discussing a single thing with you, if you are so ignorantly, arrogantly bold to say something this insipid and insane, than a conversation with you is a seriously pointless endeavor.

Getting mad are you...Listen, I have been nothing but consistent..I know that from the outside Satanism and budism are opposites...But from the inside they both will land you in hell according what the Bible teaches...You see there is but one way to the the father / heaven and that is through Jesus as has already been explained to you....In Gods economy, his eyes, sin is sin...It takes but one to keep us out of heaven...

Now understand I feel about Christianity the way reverberation feels about his religion and the way you feel about yours...You have been doing nothing but taking shots at Christianity from the get go...Here is the deal...If I am right when I die, I will be in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ.....If I am wrong and there is no heaven then at least I lived a good life....

But if I am right and your wrong, where will u end up?

[Solo]

Love thy neighbor as you would thyself

QED

There is a big big difference between proclaiming "I believe Jesus is the path to Salvation" and saying "you are going to hell as you don't believe what I do."

Interfaith dialogue can never be allowed to take a "my belief is better than yours approach" Jesus would not do that. Jesus didn't tell the apostles to drop their belief structures overnight. He showed them Love and said follow me. That is also what we must do.

I obviously read that passage very very differently than you do and this is a big issue with scripture. my interpretation of the whole verse - I try not to take these things out of context, would be: I am sending you out to continue my work. you already know the nice stuff about loving thy neighbor and healing the sick, but let me tell you it is going to be hard work. People won't like your ideas, people will hate you and argue amongst themselves about what you have to say.

Remember most of Jesus' teaching was in parables. This obviously isn't a parable but I believe Jesus is "steeling his disciples" for a lifetime of hard work.

Let me ask you Mr Soldier

Do you own anything more than the clothes on your back?
Do you have a bank account?

How then would you interpret Mathew 10: 9-10?

9 "Don't take any money with you.

10 Don't carry a traveler's bag with an extra coat and sandals or even a walking stick. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

The Bible is a way to understand God's word, but it was written in God's language not ours yes it is the literal word of God but I doubt (although who am I to say I understand Gods ways) that we are meant to take it literally. - I too can selectively pick and choose Gods words to suit my own ends.

I believe this thread was supposed to be about sharing our beliefs in a positive non judgmental way. I hope that it remains so.

If I may shed some light on this particular topic speaking of believing in Jesus for salvation and what dictates the ultimate judgment of hell.

Jesus speaks clearly and plainly to us in John 3 when he states that God did not send His son to "condemn" the world, but to "save" the world. Jesus then proceeds to explain that unless an individual is born of the physical flesh AND of the spiritual Spirit, he/she would not enter into the kingdom of God. Jesus teaches that those in the world are "condemned" already, and that by coming to the light and believing we can be "saved". He continues to teach that those who come to the LIGHT and believe are not condemned, but that those who reject the light in exchange for darkness will remain in their condemation.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life. 16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life. 17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved. 18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved. 21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God. John 3:15-21 KJV

Therefore, according to Jesus Christ, the only begotten son of God, those who believe in HIM will not perish but will have eternal life. Again, those who come to the light and believe in Jesus Christ are no longer condemned, but those who refuse to come out of the darkness into the light are condemned already.

[christiansoldier]

No. I also recall that Christ defended a prostitute against Jews who wished to stone her, an action that flies in the face of old testament tradition. Even you certainly recognize the difference between Christ and OT philosophy, hence the distinction of 'Old' and 'New covenant'. I appreciate what you are getting at, could you be more direct at what it is you are implying, and perhaps I could respond to that if you are curious.

You are referring to the post above.

Sorry, I guess I missed your point the first time around.

As I recall the story, Jesus did nothing to prevent the stoning, other than to say 'whoever has not sinned, cast the first stone'. Conviction did the rest, and the crowd of would-be-stoners slinked away.

However, there is most certainly a New Covenant - what do you think the death of Christ is all about? There is no one taking breath that deserves anything short of death according to God's justice. God does not change, but He is gracious enough to allow us to change by becoming new creatures through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior of all who will humble themselves enough to turn to Him in repentance and faith.

I have a question for you...are you still a new follower of Buddha? Judging by the harsh treatment your cyber-tongue is giving Brother Javier, I'd hazard a guess you haven't quite gotten the hang of that no-self bit you were talking about, maybe?

[jgredline]

Hey Solo,
Welcome to PR. I hope your stay is pleasant.
javier

[jgredline]

As I recall the story, Jesus did nothing to prevent the stoning, other than to say 'whoever has not sinned, cast the first stone'. Conviction did the rest, and the crowd of would-be-stoners slinked away.

However, there is most certainly a New Covenant - what do you think the death of Christ is all about? There is no one taking breath that deserves anything short of death according to God's justice. God does not change, but He is gracious enough to allow us to change by becoming new creatures through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior of all who will humble themselves enough to turn to Him in repentance and faith.

Soldier, sorry I have not had much time to respond to your posts, but this is excellent....

[Anbesol]

Getting mad are you...Listen, I have been nothing but consistent..I know that from the outside Satanism and budism are opposites...But from the inside they both will land you in hell according what the Bible teaches...You see there is but one way to the the father / heaven and that is through Jesus as has already been explained to you....In Gods economy, his eyes, sin is sin...It takes but one to keep us out of heaven...

Now understand I feel about Christianity the way reverberation feels about his religion and the way you feel about yours...You have been doing nothing but taking shots at Christianity from the get go...Here is the deal...If I am right when I die, I will be in heaven with the Lord Jesus Christ.....If I am wrong and there is no heaven then at least I lived a good life....

But if I am right and your wrong, where will u end up?

Shutup - you are the epitome of what is repulsive in religion. It is because a beautiful religion has been hijacked by you self-centered fools that the Atheist population is growing rapidly, and that scientists are becoming increasingly atheist. Stop pretending you have a clue about Buddhism, I am mad because someone could be so foolish, just knock it off. Buddha was a brilliantly wise man, and it is of the utmost conceit and arrogance for you to insult him and his teachings. Further, you don't have a clue who Buddha is, or what he taught, you're just parroting the crap they brainwashed you with in that backwoods moron school you call a 'seminary'. Just knock it off.

I lived a good life....

You think that condescending to the entire world population that isn't your exact branch of theology is 'living a good life'?? You can only fool yourself into such delusion, Javier, go sit and spin, you're like an arrogant child.

I "took shots at Christianity"?? No, I took shots at your self-centered interpretation. But I would never be so bold as to insult Christ, as you have insulted Buddha. Again, sit and spin, arrogant brat.

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, sorry I have not had much time to respond to your posts, but this is excellent....

NP.

I can see you have had your hands full.

I appreciate your posts as well, adelpho. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the direct assaults upon you won't cause the thread to be closed.

I never realized Buddhists were volatile.

[Anbesol]

Judging by the harsh treatment your cyber-tongue is giving Brother Javier, I'd hazard a guess you haven't quite gotten the hang of that no-self bit you were talking about, maybe?

A convenient equivocation.

If I ever talked down to the Christ, or to Nanak, or Krishna, or Nagarjuna, or any of the other brilliant religious leaders - I would hope someone could have the tenacity to put me in my spot.

[Anbesol]

NP.

I can see you have had your hands full.

I appreciate your posts as well, adelpho. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the direct assaults upon you won't cause the thread to be closed.

I never realized Buddhists were volatile.

Ugh, you guys are so stuck behind the illusion of everything, stuck throwing people into label camps. Can't I just be a person, a human being, an individual? One who happens to like the various religious teachings? Why do you have to throw me in a bucket just to stereotype and generalize me?

[christiansoldier]

A convenient equivocation.

If I ever talked down to the Christ, or to Nanak, or Krishna, or Nagarjuna, or any of the other brilliant religious leaders - I would hope someone could have the tenacity to put me in my spot.

As far as I can tell, Javier was addressing you, not Buddha.

Nanak? Is that the Eskimo dude? Nanak of the North? Nagarjuna...some kind of herb, am I right??

Jesus Christ is nothing short of God and does not fit into the mold you attempt to put Him into.

[jgredline]

Shutup - you are the epitome of what is repulsive in religion. It is because a beautiful religion has been hijacked by you self-centered fools that the Atheist population is growing rapidly, and that scientists are becoming increasingly atheist. Stop pretending you have a clue about Buddhism, I am mad because someone could be so foolish, just knock it off. Buddha was a brilliantly wise man, and it is of the utmost conceit and arrogance for you to insult him and his teachings. Further, you don't have a clue who Buddha is, or what he taught, you're just parroting the crap they brainwashed you with in that backwoods moron school you call a 'seminary'. Just knock it off.

You think that condescending to the entire world population that isn't your exact branch of theology is 'living a good life'?? You can only fool yourself into such delusion, Javier, go sit and spin, you're like an arrogant child.

I "took shots at Christianity"?? No, I took shots at your self-centered interpretation. But I would never be so bold as to insult Christ, as you have insulted Buddha. Again, sit and spin, arrogant brat.

I am off to bed but leave you with this scripture to ponder.
Mt 7:13-14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.


Perhaps tomorrow we can continue this quest on finding out what a Christian is..