What is a Christian?

[christiansoldier]

No. I also recall that Christ defended a prostitute against Jews who wished to stone her, an action that flies in the face of old testament tradition. Even you certainly recognize the difference between Christ and OT philosophy, hence the distinction of 'Old' and 'New covenant'. I appreciate what you are getting at, could you be more direct at what it is you are implying, and perhaps I could respond to that if you are curious.

Yes, even I recognize that difference. :smile5:

Of course, the OT has not been rendered inconsequential, by any means.

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

[Anbesol]

Yes, even I recognize that difference. :smile5:

Of course, the OT has not been rendered inconsequential, by any means.

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

[christiansoldier]

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

I'll get back to you on this one...

[Didache]

Thomas in interesting. While it is (obviously!) not one of the canonical gospels and also has an evident dose of gnosticism, it is clearly not in the same category as a lot of the other non-canonical gospels, most of which are more clearly gnostic and probably of much later date. I think most serious scholars recognise that Thomas, while not being "Quite" Christian, nevertheless has interest and may even preserve SOME genuine sayings not found in the canonical gospels.

What I find most interesting about it is its format as a "sayings" gospel, which to me supports the notion of "Q". For anyone reading this thread who does not know about this, the Q hypothesis argues that the canonical gospels were preceded by lists of "sayings" which were available to the gospel writers but which subsequently were lost. It was and is only a hypothesis, but one which gained some credibility when Thomas was discovered - not that Thomas WAS the sayings list referred to, but its existence showed that sayings lists may well have existed.

Mike

[christiansoldier]

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

Just to refresh the topic for new readers, the Thomas quote in question here is vs. 14:

'Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits."'

Anbesol, your original reply had been:

Yes, Thomas tradition, taken directly from the Thomas Gospel (verse 6? I think) after his disciples asked of him "How should we fast, [...] pray, [...] give alms".

It was only now, when going to 'refetch' the Thomas quote that I saw that vs 6 is, indeed, the disciples asking in regards to pray, fast, charity. Here is the question and the reply:

'His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed." '

Interesting exchange...

Now back to my original point...the direct opposition between Thomas and God's Word.

Let's start with 'pray' - according to Thomas's Jesus, condemnation results from prayer.

Here are but a few examples of what the NT, alone, in fact just a small portion of Matthew, says on prayer:

# Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:43-45 (in Context)


# Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:4-6 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:5-7 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:6-8 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:8-10 (in Context)

# Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matthew 9:37-38 (in Context)

# Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Matthew 14:22-24 (in Context)

Need I go on?

[christiansoldier]

Let's look at 'charity' while we are at it:

1. 1 Corinthians 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 (in Context)

2. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

3. 1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

4. 1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:2-4 (in Context)

5. 1 Corinthians 13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:3-5 (in Context)

6. 1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:7-9 (in Context)

7. 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (in Context)

8. 1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:1-3 (in Context)

9. 1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all your things be done with charity.
1 Corinthians 16:13-15 (in Context)

10. Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Colossians 3:13-15 (in Context)

11. 1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:5-7 (in Context)

12. 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2 Thessalonians 1:2-4 (in Context)

13. 1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Timothy 1:4-6 (in Context)

14. 1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:14-15 (in Context)