What is a Christian?

[HeLuvsYou]

Thank you JG!
the only thing missing here is my dancing banana or cheerleader

[jgredline]

I think it would be a good idea to see where the word ''Christian'' was first born...
The Bible mentions the word Christian only three times. The first use of the word was in Acts 11: 25 Then Barnabas departed for Tarsus to seek Saul. 26 And when he had found him, he brought him to Antioch. So it was that for a whole year they assembled with the church and taught a great many people. And the disciples were first called Christians in Antioch.

It was at this time that the jews where beginning to separate themselves from Christians...The word Christian was used in the same context as a Samaritan. It was basically a bad word...
If memory serves me right, the first secular use of the word Christian was by Nero when he accused the ''Christians'' of burning down Rome...Nero hated the Christians perhaps more than anyone through out history....So word Christian was used in a derogatory form...Same as it is used by many today like bill Maher and Michael Moore for example.

So in order to see what a Christian is, we need to start with the disciples of the Lord Jesus Christ....


Now if anyone disagrees with me so far, thats fine, but let me know what is wrong and correct me....

[jgredline]

And what about the Buddhists, who many would answer 'yes', but hail from a significantly different tradition and philosophy? What about the atheists who would likely say 'no'? Moreover, what about the fish, the birds, the lions, the dolphins, the elephants, the foxes and the wolves, the rhino's, and the turtles? I think often times when people get into religion, they forget the reality that we are all animals. Perhaps the better question is 'Did you love?'

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

The bible says we are ''like'' animals, but not animals..
Here is a very contested verse, Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in my heart,
“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked,
For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.” 18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

From a theological point of view, man is made up of body and soul, same as an animal. This is called a dichotomy... When a person becomes born again (gets saved) man then receives the Holy Spirit and thus becomes a trichotomy...Some theologians believe that when a Christian is born again, the spirit that was dead with in them comes alive and thus forming a trichotomy. I am fine with either view...

By the way, I should also mention that the bible interchanges the word spirit and soul through out the scriptures so one must look at the context...

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

[Didache]

If memory serves me right, the first secular use of the word Christian was by Nero when he accused the ''Christians'' of burning down Rome...

Technically, it was Tacitus who used the word, referring in his history to the Neronic period, so it's a moot point whether or not Nero himself actually used the word. Clearly though, Tacitus was aware of it.

Just me being pedantic
Mike

[Didache]

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

This raises some interesting points too. There is a strong thrust in the Bible that it is not only humans who are redeemed but, somehow, all creation. The Genesis story, whether you believe it literally or not, seems to thrust towards the whole of creation being corrupted by the Fall.

See for instance: 17And to the man he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten of the tree
about which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.)

Isaiah refers to lions lying with lambs etc - in other words, all creation being at peace with itself when the Messiah comes.

Paul himself speaks of the same kind of thing (Romans 8:19ff)

Then, in Revelation, it speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. In other words, all creation is somehow caught up in this great act of redemption.

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

Technically, it was Tacitus who used the word, referring in his history to the Neronic period, so it's a moot point whether or not Nero himself actually used the word. Clearly though, Tacitus was aware of it.

Just me being pedantic
Mike

Thanks Mike, I should know better than to trust my memory some times. What are your thoughts on the rest of that post?

[Didache]

Javier - I think we crossed in the post

Mike

[jgredline]

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

When my Son asked me if our dog Sam will be in heaven with us, my answer to him, Yes, I believe so...I told him how the bible speaks of animals in heaven like those you mentioned as well as horses...As far as redemption goes, I will disagree with you there. While I do believe ''some'' animals will be in heaven, I do not believe all animals will be there..There is just not enough biblical support for this...Yet the plan of Salvation for man is clear...

To me this is one of those Gray non salvation areas, where we can agree to disagree...

Mike, What are your views on hell? Is it literal?
By the way, I hold to a literal view of creation and a literal view of hell..

[Didache]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

Again, this is an area where we can agree to disagree..
So I take it to mean you believe in the Gap theory? iF so, I have no problem with it..We can discuss this in more detail in another thread.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

So do you believe in a universal salvation?
Do you believe in annihilation?
What do you make of what Jesus said in Matt 25:46?

[Frog]

It is good to read the thoughts of those who trully seek truth, even when they have different views.
About heaven and hell, is it naive of me to not worry about it much. Since it has been promised,(a promise that I believe), that my salvation is real, then I figure I'll find out what that means when my earthly life is over.

I do think that action's are more likely to define a Christian than the technicalities of what one believes.

[christiansoldier]

The youth of My church are in open dialogue with other Christian faiths, Jews, Muslims and Hindus to name a few. The premise of why this works is that "My God is not better than yours" and "lets not linger on our differences but celebrate our similarities." and "All our diverse beliefs are ways of understanding the divine better how can we learn from each other" I have first hand experience of people's faiths being enriched and deepened by this sharing.

Personally I make it a point to spend some time walking in others faiths so I can respond from a point of love not hate. I believe that this is how Jesus would respond.

Hi, Folks...lots of thoughtful and thought-provoking responses here.

Skyman, I wanted to address yours, in particular, because I find it both thrilling and frightening.

Being in dialog with other faiths and responding in love... thrilling, wonderful and awesome.

:thumbsup:

However, if the end result is not a crystal clear message that there is but ONE path to salvation - through Jesus Christ - then the mission has failed, and there is plenty of scripture to back up that statement. I'll be happy to reference some, if anyone needs it.

For now, I will leave you with one scripture, to be considered in light of the suggested premise (forgive me if I read too much into your post, Skyman) that we could possibly have an eclectic, harmonious, diverse, multi-faceted spiritual walk culminating in an eternal existence in the presence of a Holy God.

Matthew 10

34 Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

35 For I am come to set a man at variance against his father, and the daughter against her mother, and the daughter in law against her mother in law.

[jgredline]

It is good to read the thoughts of those who trully seek truth, even when they have different views.

Yes, I have found this thread to be very cool..

About heaven and hell, is it naive of me to not worry about it much.

I can speak only for myself.
For a child of God, this should not be a concern...I for one can say with all my heart and soul, that I am ready to die..I have no fear of death, but infact would welcome death. For me to die is gain for I will be be present with the Lord..

However, for those who are not clothed in the righteousness of Christ, they have reason for concern. I will elaborate more on this a little later..

Since it has been promised,(a promise that I believe), that my salvation is real, then I figure I'll find out what that means when my earthly life is over.

Amen Frog...

I do think that action's are more likely to define a Christian than the technicalities of what one believes.

Yes, this is very true...The bible says that even the demons believe and tremble....

[Skyman]

Love thy neighbor as you would thyself

QED

There is a big big difference between proclaiming "I believe Jesus is the path to Salvation" and saying "you are going to hell as you don't believe what I do."

Interfaith dialogue can never be allowed to take a "my belief is better than yours approach" Jesus would not do that. Jesus didn't tell the apostles to drop their belief structures overnight. He showed them Love and said follow me. That is also what we must do.

I obviously read that passage very very differently than you do and this is a big issue with scripture. my interpretation of the whole verse - I try not to take these things out of context, would be: I am sending you out to continue my work. you already know the nice stuff about loving thy neighbor and healing the sick, but let me tell you it is going to be hard work. People won't like your ideas, people will hate you and argue amongst themselves about what you have to say.

Remember most of Jesus' teaching was in parables. This obviously isn't a parable but I believe Jesus is "steeling his disciples" for a lifetime of hard work.

Let me ask you Mr Soldier

Do you own anything more than the clothes on your back?
Do you have a bank account?

How then would you interpret Mathew 10: 9-10?

9 "Don't take any money with you.

10 Don't carry a traveler's bag with an extra coat and sandals or even a walking stick. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

The Bible is a way to understand God's word, but it was written in God's language not ours yes it is the literal word of God but I doubt (although who am I to say I understand Gods ways) that we are meant to take it literally. - I too can selectively pick and choose Gods words to suit my own ends.

I believe this thread was supposed to be about sharing our beliefs in a positive non judgmental way. I hope that it remains so.

[Anbesol]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

[christiansoldier]

Love thy neighbor as you would thyself

QED

There is a big big difference between proclaiming "I believe Jesus is the path to Salvation" and saying "you are going to hell as you don't believe what I do."

Interfaith dialogue can never be allowed to take a "my belief is better than yours approach" Jesus would not do that. Jesus didn't tell the apostles to drop their belief structures overnight. He showed them Love and said follow me. That is also what we must do.

I obviously read that passage very very differently than you do and this is a big issue with scripture. my interpretation of the whole verse - I try not to take these things out of context, would be: I am sending you out to continue my work. you already know the nice stuff about loving thy neighbor and healing the sick, but let me tell you it is going to be hard work. People won't like your ideas, people will hate you and argue amongst themselves about what you have to say.

Remember most of Jesus' teaching was in parables. This obviously isn't a parable but I believe Jesus is "steeling his disciples" for a lifetime of hard work.

Let me ask you Mr Soldier

Do you own anything more than the clothes on your back?
Do you have a bank account?

How then would you interpret Mathew 10: 9-10?

9 "Don't take any money with you.

10 Don't carry a traveler's bag with an extra coat and sandals or even a walking stick. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

The Bible is a way to understand God's word, but it was written in God's language not ours yes it is the literal word of God but I doubt (although who am I to say I understand Gods ways) that we are meant to take it literally. - I too can selectively pick and choose Gods words to suit my own ends.

I believe this thread was supposed to be about sharing our beliefs in a positive non judgmental way. I hope that it remains so.

Were you feeling judged by me? If so, I'm sorry, as that was not my intention.

What greater love can we show our neighbor than to preach the full Gospel of salvation and all that it entails?

To answer your questions, I own little more than clothes, and not an over-abundance of them. I drive a 15 year-old pick-up truck and abide in small 60 year old house owned by the bank, and meagerly furnished. But that is neither here nor there.

Why do you stop short at verse 10... read on, for the fuller context:

12 And when ye come into an house, salute it.

13 And if the house be worthy, let your peace come upon it: but if it be not worthy, let your peace return to you.

14 And whosoever shall not receive you, nor hear your words, when ye depart out of that house or city, shake off the dust of your feet.

15 Verily I say unto you, It shall be more tolerable for the land of Sodom and Gomorrha in the day of judgment, than for that city.

No offense or judgment intended.

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

If your view of scripture is that it is flawed, it will serve no purpose to direct you to the scripture which you claim does not exist.

[jgredline]

Folks,
What are your opinions on what Salvation means?
How does one ''get saved'' or some use the word ''Born Again''?
Since this thread is ''What is a Christian?'' and we can see from scripture that I presented earlier that a Christian is a disciple of the Lord Jesus Christ; we need to see how those Christians where saved (Born again)..

Comments.

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, IF there really were scripture to 'back that up', then the scripture is flawed. Fortunately, there isn't, and you're just left with a misinterpretation.

Did the good samaritan find eternal life for professing the right faith? When Jesus said 'go and do likewise', did he really mean 'ignore the story I just said, it doesn't mean anything'?

After thinking about this, I decided I could not let this stand, if not for your benefit, then for the benefit of someone else, perhaps.

God's Word is quite explicit:

John 14:

6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.


Matthew 7:

13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

15 Beware of false prophets, which come to you in sheep's clothing, but inwardly they are ravening wolves.

As for the Good Samaritan...you tell me...did his compassion earn him salvation?

[Anbesol]

I think I need to explain myself a bit for anybody to even begin to understand me or what I am saying -

I grew up an atheist, I never was influenced by any church to feel one way or another, because I was never part of any church. And my family grew to be incredibly diverse, believe it or not, of the 6 people in my family, we have

1 - Mormon
1 - Evangelical
1 - Atheist
1 - Spiritual new age (hard to define ;))
1 - Buddhist/Gnostic Christian (me)
1 - Religiously diverse/moderate

I actually really thought very little of Christ, as I was quite repulsed by his mainstream followers, until I read the Gospel of Thomas verse 3 -

If those who lead you say to you 'the Kingdom is in the sky, then the birds of the sky will precede you', if they say 'the Kingdom is in the sea', then the fish precede you. Rather, the Kingdom is inside and outside of us all, when you come to know yourself you will be known, and you will realize it is you who are the elect of the living father. But if you do not know your self then you dwell in poverty, and it is you who are the poverty.

A beautifully crafted verse, it resonated with me intensely, and opened my eyes and ears to Christs ministry. I had been so frustrated with the mainstream church shouting about the kingdom, to me it was exactly like they were saying 'look up in the sky, its the kingdom, and only we can get you there' (like what 'heluvsyou' and 'christiansoldier' are doing right now). He says the same thing in Luke as well, a canonized account, paralleling it to a T, yet structuring the statement much more mystically. Luke 17:21-23

The kingdom of God comes not by observation. Neither shall they say, 'lo, the kingdom is here! or lo, it is there. For behold! the kingdom of God is within you. [...] the days will come, when you desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and you will not see it. And they will say to you 'see, here, or see, there', do not follow or go after them'

Since then, I have read the Entire New Testament, and much of the old, I've read the Gospels many times over, I simply cannot get enough of them, and I'm filled with joy just to see such beautiful words come together. But I see a serious disconnect between the principles being taught in the bible, and the application of them in the church. I am positively perplexed at times how people can associate the bible with their church, often times it seems so distant that I think the bible has become nothing more than a symbol of power and authority for them, an ornamental symbol of their spiritual narcissism. And ultimately, I do not care to appear a 'true christian' to anybody, I only want to be totally honest with myself and others, to reside with and embody God, and to love. People can think I am a jar of mayonaise or a baked potato for all I care, I simply do not care about that.

And yes, I am a religious hybrid, Buddhist/Christian, I have my cake and I eat it too. No, there is absolutely no conflict between the two. Please try to look beneath the surface of it all, if I had the time, resources and stamina, I would be a Sufi Muslim Christian Shinto Buddhist Hindu monk all in one, exploring diversity is not bad, and just because things are diverse does not mean 'one is right and one is wrong'. To assume as much requires an ethnocentric arrogance of epic proportions.

[Anbesol]

You can't let it stand?! Oh boy, here we go... Okay, then there is something I wont let stand as well, if not for your benefit, than for another readers.

John 14:6 no one comes to the father but by me

There is only one way there. Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through Him.

Actually, that comment Jesus made in John 14 was historically inaccurate, he never said it. it was an expression of the contemporary sectarianism of the late 1st century, recognize who he is expressing this to? Notice the context and dialog, notice the direction and rebukal - John and Thomas were two intensely competing Christian camps and the sectarianism started after the middle of the first century, escelating over the next century. The incorporation of John 14 into doctrine was not an account of the historical Jesus, but rather, the way John would incorporate his argument into the narrative and words of Jesus. You would be surprised, very little of the New Testament is historically accurate - even between Matthew Mark and Luke, they describe many of the same events but the record and literal words are often times *very* different. Now, don't get me wrong, I love the New Testament, and I hold the Gospels in the highest regard, but, that doesn't mean we need to fool ourselves about the history and origin of the writings.

Ultimately though, I agree with the core principle behind this expression of J 14:6, I agree with what Christ is saying in this characterization, even though he never actually said it. But rather, I see it as the mystical allegory I think John clearly intended it to be. The Christian religion is a very mystical one, it is impossible to take the words of doctrine in some materialist hard-wooden literalism, because doing such makes it positively nonsense. You read into the mysticism of it, and its brilliant, deep, poetic, vibrant, and alive. But the way you interpret it, the words are dead, they are hollow, empty of substance, just dry words you throw at others. Accept that there are cultural diversities, and your tradition is no more holier than theirs. Stop this self pseudo-righteousness. I know you're just simply parroting what your church feeds you, but it is incredibly offensive and repulsive at the same time. Think of it this way - every culture you insult, you are insulting me, every religion you insult, you are insulting me. I don't need to be a practicing hindu or muslim or what have you, for me to be offended by your rudeness and patronizing hatred towards them. Is this what your faith comes to? Soldier? Heluvsyou?

[Anbesol]

Love thy neighbor as you would thyself

QED

There is a big big difference between proclaiming "I believe Jesus is the path to Salvation" and saying "you are going to hell as you don't believe what I do."

Interfaith dialogue can never be allowed to take a "my belief is better than yours approach" Jesus would not do that. Jesus didn't tell the apostles to drop their belief structures overnight. He showed them Love and said follow me. That is also what we must do.

I obviously read that passage very very differently than you do and this is a big issue with scripture. my interpretation of the whole verse - I try not to take these things out of context, would be: I am sending you out to continue my work. you already know the nice stuff about loving thy neighbor and healing the sick, but let me tell you it is going to be hard work. People won't like your ideas, people will hate you and argue amongst themselves about what you have to say.

Remember most of Jesus' teaching was in parables. This obviously isn't a parable but I believe Jesus is "steeling his disciples" for a lifetime of hard work.

Let me ask you Mr Soldier

Do you own anything more than the clothes on your back?
Do you have a bank account?

How then would you interpret Mathew 10: 9-10?

9 "Don't take any money with you.

10 Don't carry a traveler's bag with an extra coat and sandals or even a walking stick. Don't hesitate to accept hospitality, because those who work deserve to be fed.

The Bible is a way to understand God's word, but it was written in God's language not ours yes it is the literal word of God but I doubt (although who am I to say I understand Gods ways) that we are meant to take it literally. - I too can selectively pick and choose Gods words to suit my own ends.

I believe this thread was supposed to be about sharing our beliefs in a positive non judgmental way. I hope that it remains so.

Skyman, I am happy to see someone who embraces cultural diversity. Am I to understand that you do not regard your religious tradition as actually better then theirs? Or do you simply not express that you feel as much, to not offend?

Anyway, if I understand you correctly, I really like your take on this.

[Skyman]

I call myself Christian, or Roman Catholic to be precise, however I take a Descartes approach to religion.

I believe in a benevolent omnipotent being - I choose to call God.

By my own concept of God I can not possibly comprehend the entirety of God or God's nature.

I believe that God expresses to us as much of God's nature as we as individuals can understand.

How can I judge someone based on my understanding of the unknowable?

Who am I to say that another person's understanding isn't more accurate than mine?

Therefore: my understanding of God helps me to be a better person. My belief structures have proposed concepts of heaven and hell. by my own admission these may not be correct but they improve my life. The same goes for all other belief structures including atheism and agnosticism.

This may be heretical and will probably affront people who would dispute my claim to being Christian.

some important caveats:

I Love my concept of God and Jesus etc

I choose to share that love with as many people as possible.

if their response to my understanding has no greater or lesser significance than their own understanding. If they reject my beliefs it is possible that they aren't ready to know God the way I do, or they already know God better than I do irrespective of their religion.

Now for all the Christians who don't like what I have just written:

I do believe Jesus Christ was the son of God and as part of the Holy Trinity actually God incarnate. I do believe in the Crucifixion death and resurrection.

now why would that compel me to damn others and or ram my beliefs down their throats.?

[Didache]

Quite a few big questions being raised here! Too many to address them all in any depth, or even at all. But, just a few points:

Javier - not I don't believe in a "gap theory" - I just don't read the creation account in any sense literally, but poetically and mythically (in the proper sense of myth). There is huge truth in it, but truth comes in other forms than literal. "My love is like a red, red rose" may not be literally true, but may even be truer than that!

christiansoldier - I feel uncomfortable with the way you apparently use John 14 as a sort of "club" to batter the heads of those who are not explicitly Christian. I am pretty sure that it was never Jesus' intent to have his words (assuming they ARE his words for the sake of this discussion) used in that manner. Frankly, it was this I was referring to in my previous post about being careful about defining too closely who Jesus is for and who he is against. I can say that FOR ME Jesus is indeed the path and the only path - I would be wary though of using that text as an exercise in being prescriptive for other people who may indeed be on a different path.

Let me tell you an incident in my life, many years ago. I was in a doctor's waiting room and had quite a long wait in the presence of a Sikh gentleman who was also waiting. The conversation turned to religion. The strange thing was that, for a little while, we were talking about "our" God. Yes I know he wasn't a Christian, and I know what the New Testament says (or at least some interpretations of it) but there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that this man "knew God", indeed I suspect that his spirituality may have put my own to shame.

Now, I do not have all the answers to this. I do not know if that man was "saved" (although I don't especially like that word or use it much) but somehow I feel that God would never reject such a patently good and faithful man. God is many things: 'Just' is one of them and I cannot believe he would condemn someone because they were born into a different religious culture. Even St Paul admits as much when he says in Romans (paraphrasing) that people may well be judged according to the lights of their conscience.

It's like the old joke: A man was getting a tour of heaven. St Peter said "Over there on the left we have the Buddhist community, on your right you will see the Lutherans, straight ahead you will see the Hindus and behind them the Anglicans". "That's great", said the man, "but what is that high wall over there?" St Peter replied "That's where we keep the baptists - they like to think they're the only ones up here".

Cheers
Mike

[Didache]

Javier .. re your question about what "Salvation" means. I tend (myself) not to like the word "saved" or the phrase "born again", NOT (I emphasise) because I dispute the concepts (I don't!), but because they tend to have specific meanings mainly to those of a conservative evangelical stamp. Indeed, you could argue that "born again", in particular, is a phrase that has been hijacked somewhat by that particular churchmanship.

Having said all that, I see it as a "process" or a "journey" rather than a destination already arrived at. For the most part, the New Testament uses the word in the continuous sense, ie "I am being saved". I think that's accurate, certainly in my own experience. St Paul too often uses metaphors such as "running a race" etc. which implies an ongoing pilgrimage.

The "journey" motif is very important to my own spiritual experience. Have you ever read "Pilgrims Progress" by John Bunyan? Certainly that book influenced British Christianity a great deal, especially with its theme of the Christian path being a journey toward the Celestial City, rather than an instant arrival. As we travel on the spiritual path, we meet people along the way (indeed, for a little while in the forum we are like travellers who happen to find themselves in conversation on the road), sometimes we take detours and have to find our way back, and sometimes we halt in the road because we are afraid of what lies beyond the next corner. In the end though, it is a journey towards God, realising in our better moments that God himself is not only our destination, but also our companion on the road (cf the Emmaus story).

It is a process of healing and wholeness (indeed, the word for 'salvation' is related to the root for 'healing'): wholeness between ourselves and God, between ourselves and our neighbours, as well as a wholeness within ourselves - in other words, it is not just about getting a ticket into heaven, but about a restoration of all that was lost in the Fall.

Cheers
Mike