What is a Christian?

[jgredline]

And what about the Buddhists, who many would answer 'yes', but hail from a significantly different tradition and philosophy? What about the atheists who would likely say 'no'? Moreover, what about the fish, the birds, the lions, the dolphins, the elephants, the foxes and the wolves, the rhino's, and the turtles? I think often times when people get into religion, they forget the reality that we are all animals. Perhaps the better question is 'Did you love?'

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

The bible says we are ''like'' animals, but not animals..
Here is a very contested verse, Ecclesiastes 3:17 I said in my heart,
“God shall judge the righteous and the wicked,
For there is a time there for every purpose and for every work.” 18 I said in my heart, “Concerning the condition of the sons of men, God tests them, that they may see that they themselves are like animals.” 19 For what happens to the sons of men also happens to animals; one thing befalls them: as one dies, so dies the other. Surely, they all have one breath; man has no advantage over animals, for all is vanity. 20 All go to one place: all are from the dust, and all return to dust. 21 Who knows the spirit of the sons of men, which goes upward, and the spirit of the animal, which goes down to the earth? 22 So I perceived that nothing is better than that a man should rejoice in his own works, for that is his heritage. For who can bring him to see what will happen after him?

From a theological point of view, man is made up of body and soul, same as an animal. This is called a dichotomy... When a person becomes born again (gets saved) man then receives the Holy Spirit and thus becomes a trichotomy...Some theologians believe that when a Christian is born again, the spirit that was dead with in them comes alive and thus forming a trichotomy. I am fine with either view...

By the way, I should also mention that the bible interchanges the word spirit and soul through out the scriptures so one must look at the context...

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

[Didache]

Secondly, there is no plan of salvation for animals...Jesus died for those who would follow him, not for animals.

This raises some interesting points too. There is a strong thrust in the Bible that it is not only humans who are redeemed but, somehow, all creation. The Genesis story, whether you believe it literally or not, seems to thrust towards the whole of creation being corrupted by the Fall.

See for instance: 17And to the man he said,
“Because you have listened to the voice of your wife,
and have eaten of the tree
about which I commanded you,
‘You shall not eat of it,’
cursed is the ground because of you;
in toil you shall eat of it all the days of your life;
18 thorns and thistles it shall bring forth for you;
and you shall eat the plants of the field.)

Isaiah refers to lions lying with lambs etc - in other words, all creation being at peace with itself when the Messiah comes.

Paul himself speaks of the same kind of thing (Romans 8:19ff)

Then, in Revelation, it speaks of a new heaven and a new earth. In other words, all creation is somehow caught up in this great act of redemption.

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

Now, I am not directly commenting on animals here - but just on the notion that redemption is limited to us human beings. I think there is a strong biblical thread which would argue otherwise.

Cheers
Mike

When my Son asked me if our dog Sam will be in heaven with us, my answer to him, Yes, I believe so...I told him how the bible speaks of animals in heaven like those you mentioned as well as horses...As far as redemption goes, I will disagree with you there. While I do believe ''some'' animals will be in heaven, I do not believe all animals will be there..There is just not enough biblical support for this...Yet the plan of Salvation for man is clear...

To me this is one of those Gray non salvation areas, where we can agree to disagree...

Mike, What are your views on hell? Is it literal?
By the way, I hold to a literal view of creation and a literal view of hell..

[Didache]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

[jgredline]

No I don't believe literally in either .. or at least in the sense you mean it.

Very briefly (I can always expand in another post) .. to say I believe in God as Creator, does not imply to me a necessity to believe in the beginning of Genesis as a literal history. I have no problem with the idea that God can and does work through the natural processes of creation - after all he created the natural processes. In other words, I see God as the guiding force behind creation, but have no problem with the idea that creation proceeds according to natural laws. Indeed, in the past this concept has been the driving force behind the work of many a scientist who believed that they honoured God by untangling the laws of the universe.

Again, this is an area where we can agree to disagree..
So I take it to mean you believe in the Gap theory? iF so, I have no problem with it..We can discuss this in more detail in another thread.

The hell one is more complex and it would take an essay, not a paragraph! But last October I stood in Auschwitz - frankly I don't think we need any more hell than that, or the things we are capable of doing to one another. In the words of Gandhi "The only devils in this world are those running around in our own hearts, and that is where all our battles should be fought"

Cheers
Mike

So do you believe in a universal salvation?
Do you believe in annihilation?
What do you make of what Jesus said in Matt 25:46?