What is a Christian?

[Anbesol]

Science has absolutely nothing to do with why we are here and what our purpose in life is.

What do you mean??

[christiansoldier]

That isn't what I meant when I said that, I meant an objective textual analysis. No less, are you supposing that the earth is 6000 years old, and men literally came magically from dust then?

I think 'magically' is a poor choice of words, unless you view God as a Genie.

Personally, I have no problem with either a literal acceptance of a 24 hr day in creation or 1000 year day.

God expressed Himself pretty well to Job, in regards to questioning what He can or can not do, don't you think?

Isaiah made some pretty poignant points in this regard, as well.

[Anbesol]

Interesting post, anbesol.

I take it, then, that you regard Jesus as a mere historical figure, rather than God in the flesh?

Note the (?)...I wouldn't want you to think I'm trying to speak for you.

I'm curious... do you recognize this statement? (No fair using google )

Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits.

Yes, Thomas tradition, taken directly from the Thomas Gospel (verse 6? I think) after his disciples asked of him "How should we fast, [...] pray, [...] give alms".

I was introduced to Christ through the Thomas Gospel, and give the Thomas Gospel the same merit and credence that I give Mt Mk Lk and Jn, the differences are minor differences in methodological and sacramental approach, all embrace Jesus' ministry with incredible, vivid, and beautiful detail. Why are you asking, you regard it a heretical gospel?

As far as the 'god in the flesh' question, to me - that depends on how you understand the words "god" "in" "the" and "flesh".

[christiansoldier]

Yes, Thomas tradition, taken directly from the Thomas Gospel (verse 6? I think) after his disciples asked of him "How should we fast, [...] pray, [...] give alms".

I was introduced to Christ through the Thomas Gospel, and give the Thomas Gospel the same merit and credence that I give Mt Mk Lk and Jn, the differences are minor differences in methodological and sacramental approach, all embrace Jesus' ministry with incredible, vivid, and beautiful detail. Why are you asking, you regard it a heretical gospel?

Have you found any parallel treatment of fasting or charity or prayer in any other portion of scripture, OT or NT?

[Anbesol]

Have you found any parallel treatment of fasting or charity or prayer in any other portion of scripture, OT or NT?

No. I also recall that Christ defended a prostitute against Jews who wished to stone her, an action that flies in the face of old testament tradition. Even you certainly recognize the difference between Christ and OT philosophy, hence the distinction of 'Old' and 'New covenant'. I appreciate what you are getting at, could you be more direct at what it is you are implying, and perhaps I could respond to that if you are curious.

[christiansoldier]

No. I also recall that Christ defended a prostitute against Jews who wished to stone her, an action that flies in the face of old testament tradition. Even you certainly recognize the difference between Christ and OT philosophy, hence the distinction of 'Old' and 'New covenant'. I appreciate what you are getting at, could you be more direct at what it is you are implying, and perhaps I could respond to that if you are curious.

Yes, even I recognize that difference. :smile5:

Of course, the OT has not been rendered inconsequential, by any means.

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

[Anbesol]

Yes, even I recognize that difference. :smile5:

Of course, the OT has not been rendered inconsequential, by any means.

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

[christiansoldier]

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

I'll get back to you on this one...

[Didache]

Thomas in interesting. While it is (obviously!) not one of the canonical gospels and also has an evident dose of gnosticism, it is clearly not in the same category as a lot of the other non-canonical gospels, most of which are more clearly gnostic and probably of much later date. I think most serious scholars recognise that Thomas, while not being "Quite" Christian, nevertheless has interest and may even preserve SOME genuine sayings not found in the canonical gospels.

What I find most interesting about it is its format as a "sayings" gospel, which to me supports the notion of "Q". For anyone reading this thread who does not know about this, the Q hypothesis argues that the canonical gospels were preceded by lists of "sayings" which were available to the gospel writers but which subsequently were lost. It was and is only a hypothesis, but one which gained some credibility when Thomas was discovered - not that Thomas WAS the sayings list referred to, but its existence showed that sayings lists may well have existed.

Mike

[christiansoldier]

The point is that Thomas' treatment of fasting, prayer and charity are in direct opposition to the Bible's teaching on the same subjects.

Thomas' Gospel was full of esoteric riddles, the differences are there, yes, but to call them a 'direct opposition' is a stretch.

Just to refresh the topic for new readers, the Thomas quote in question here is vs. 14:

'Jesus said to them, "If you fast, you will bring sin upon yourselves, and if you pray, you will be condemned, and if you give to charity, you will harm your spirits."'

Anbesol, your original reply had been:

Yes, Thomas tradition, taken directly from the Thomas Gospel (verse 6? I think) after his disciples asked of him "How should we fast, [...] pray, [...] give alms".

It was only now, when going to 'refetch' the Thomas quote that I saw that vs 6 is, indeed, the disciples asking in regards to pray, fast, charity. Here is the question and the reply:

'His disciples asked him and said to him, "Do you want us to fast? How should we pray? Should we give to charity? What diet should we observe?"

Jesus said, "Don't lie, and don't do what you hate, because all things are disclosed before heaven. After all, there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed, and there is nothing covered up that will remain undisclosed." '

Interesting exchange...

Now back to my original point...the direct opposition between Thomas and God's Word.

Let's start with 'pray' - according to Thomas's Jesus, condemnation results from prayer.

Here are but a few examples of what the NT, alone, in fact just a small portion of Matthew, says on prayer:

# Matthew 5:44
But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Matthew 5:43-45 (in Context)


# Matthew 6:5
And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
Matthew 6:4-6 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:6
But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.
Matthew 6:5-7 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:7
But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.
Matthew 6:6-8 (in Context)

# Matthew 6:9
After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.
Matthew 6:8-10 (in Context)

# Matthew 9:38
Pray ye therefore the Lord of the harvest, that he will send forth labourers into his harvest.
Matthew 9:37-38 (in Context)

# Matthew 14:23
And when he had sent the multitudes away, he went up into a mountain apart to pray: and when the evening was come, he was there alone.
Matthew 14:22-24 (in Context)

Need I go on?

[christiansoldier]

Let's look at 'charity' while we are at it:

1. 1 Corinthians 8:1
Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
1 Corinthians 8:1-3 (in Context)

2. 1 Corinthians 13:1
Though I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, and have not charity, I am become as sounding brass, or a tinkling cymbal.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

3. 1 Corinthians 13:2
And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries, and all knowledge; and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, and have not charity, I am nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:1-3 (in Context)

4. 1 Corinthians 13:3
And though I bestow all my goods to feed the poor, and though I give my body to be burned, and have not charity, it profiteth me nothing.
1 Corinthians 13:2-4 (in Context)

5. 1 Corinthians 13:4
Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
1 Corinthians 13:3-5 (in Context)

6. 1 Corinthians 13:8
Charity never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall fail; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall vanish away.
1 Corinthians 13:7-9 (in Context)

7. 1 Corinthians 13:13
And now abideth faith, hope, charity, these three; but the greatest of these is charity.
1 Corinthians 13:12-13 (in Context)

8. 1 Corinthians 14:1
Follow after charity, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy.
1 Corinthians 14:1-3 (in Context)

9. 1 Corinthians 16:14
Let all your things be done with charity.
1 Corinthians 16:13-15 (in Context)

10. Colossians 3:14
And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.
Colossians 3:13-15 (in Context)

11. 1 Thessalonians 3:6
But now when Timotheus came from you unto us, and brought us good tidings of your faith and charity, and that ye have good remembrance of us always, desiring greatly to see us, as we also to see you:
1 Thessalonians 3:5-7 (in Context)

12. 2 Thessalonians 1:3
We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is meet, because that your faith groweth exceedingly, and the charity of every one of you all toward each other aboundeth;
2 Thessalonians 1:2-4 (in Context)

13. 1 Timothy 1:5
Now the end of the commandment is charity out of a pure heart, and of a good conscience, and of faith unfeigned:
1 Timothy 1:4-6 (in Context)

14. 1 Timothy 2:15
Notwithstanding she shall be saved in childbearing, if they continue in faith and charity and holiness with sobriety.
1 Timothy 2:14-15 (in Context)

[christiansoldier]

No. I also recall that Christ defended a prostitute against Jews who wished to stone her, an action that flies in the face of old testament tradition. Even you certainly recognize the difference between Christ and OT philosophy, hence the distinction of 'Old' and 'New covenant'. I appreciate what you are getting at, could you be more direct at what it is you are implying, and perhaps I could respond to that if you are curious.

You are referring to the post above.

Sorry, I guess I missed your point the first time around.

As I recall the story, Jesus did nothing to prevent the stoning, other than to say 'whoever has not sinned, cast the first stone'. Conviction did the rest, and the crowd of would-be-stoners slinked away.

However, there is most certainly a New Covenant - what do you think the death of Christ is all about? There is no one taking breath that deserves anything short of death according to God's justice. God does not change, but He is gracious enough to allow us to change by becoming new creatures through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior of all who will humble themselves enough to turn to Him in repentance and faith.

I have a question for you...are you still a new follower of Buddha? Judging by the harsh treatment your cyber-tongue is giving Brother Javier, I'd hazard a guess you haven't quite gotten the hang of that no-self bit you were talking about, maybe?

[jgredline]

As I recall the story, Jesus did nothing to prevent the stoning, other than to say 'whoever has not sinned, cast the first stone'. Conviction did the rest, and the crowd of would-be-stoners slinked away.

However, there is most certainly a New Covenant - what do you think the death of Christ is all about? There is no one taking breath that deserves anything short of death according to God's justice. God does not change, but He is gracious enough to allow us to change by becoming new creatures through the atoning blood of Jesus Christ, Lord and Savior of all who will humble themselves enough to turn to Him in repentance and faith.

Soldier, sorry I have not had much time to respond to your posts, but this is excellent....

[christiansoldier]

Soldier, sorry I have not had much time to respond to your posts, but this is excellent....

NP.

I can see you have had your hands full.

I appreciate your posts as well, adelpho. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the direct assaults upon you won't cause the thread to be closed.

I never realized Buddhists were volatile.

[Anbesol]

NP.

I can see you have had your hands full.

I appreciate your posts as well, adelpho. :thumbsup:

I'm hoping the direct assaults upon you won't cause the thread to be closed.

I never realized Buddhists were volatile.

Ugh, you guys are so stuck behind the illusion of everything, stuck throwing people into label camps. Can't I just be a person, a human being, an individual? One who happens to like the various religious teachings? Why do you have to throw me in a bucket just to stereotype and generalize me?

[christiansoldier]

Ugh, you guys are so stuck behind the illusion of everything, stuck throwing people into label camps. Can't I just be a person, a human being, an individual? One who happens to like the various religious teachings? Why do you have to throw me in a bucket just to stereotype and generalize me?

Hold on there, bucky. You labeled yourself. Buddhist/Christian.

Did anyone drag you, kicking and screaming into this discussion? Not that you aren't welcome, but don't go all huffy and ad hominem on us, OK?

Pax, dude. Take a deep breath.

Try this mantra:

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

Not feeling better...a little faster

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

:thumbsup:

[Anbesol]

Hold on there, bucky. You labeled yourself. Buddhist/Christian.

Did anyone drag you, kicking and screaming into this discussion? Not that you aren't welcome, but don't go all huffy and ad hominem on us, OK?

Pax, dude. Take a deep breath.

Try this mantra:

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

Not feeling better...a little faster

O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam
O-wa Ta-goo Siam

:thumbsup:

I got pissed because my patience ran thin as a couple of high-and-mighty morons started insulting a following of more than a billion people. Your patronizing me is a provocation as well. Get real.

[christiansoldier]

I got pissed because my patience ran thin as a couple of high-and-mighty morons started insulting a following of more than a billion people. Your patronizing me is a provocation as well. Get real.

No one can provoke a person of self-control and discipline.

I am real.

Does Buddhism prohibit humor?

Seriously, though, a billion lost souls is sad, sad, sad.

[Anbesol]

it is in danger of degenerating into an "I am right and you are wrong" argument

Mike, I really genuinely appreciate your concern for the thread. I recognize that my response was direct and confrontational, but my intention was to debate the issues, and not exude any posturing or the sorts. My hope is that rather than that, we can debate the actual issues. I erased some of my unnecessary and harsh words. Please excuse my weakness, I was very offended by his comments. I know he did not directly intend offense towards me, but his condemnation of other traditions is something I consider highly offensive and I do take personally.

[Anbesol]

Mike - I too have been investigating the possible relationship between Thomas and the 'Q' document. Trying to wrap my head around it with the very little known information is quite a challenge though. It doesn't help that most of what we have to go by with Thomas was Coptic sourced, analyzing textual differences and similarities between Thomas and the Synoptic texts is thus even more incredibly difficult. If we found the Greek writing (or, if written originally in Aramaic, that translation), then we would have a lot more to look at in relating the texts. As of now, its an intensely compelling and legitimate, and a simultaneously very difficult hypothesis to look at. I'm used to hearing pastors/ministers vehemently dismissing Thomas as heresy, so I am glad you seemed to have looked at it all very thoughtfully.

I have heard that its highly likely the Vatican has more authentic originals of non-canonized texts locked up in its library, perhaps someone could persuade the Pope to disclose its version of Thomas to the public, or perhaps the Vatican doesn't even have such a thing. Not that releasing it could possibly serve the Catholic interest, guess I may as well ask Santa Clause for an Island off the coast of California.

[jgredline]

Wow, lots to catch up on. I guess some people don't sleep
I am on my way to church now, so I will address some of these posts this afternoon.

Mike is right in that we need to go back and continue this quest to define what a Christian is, but I also think these side excursions are good...I know Enbesol seems to be getting offended and I am sure he sees me as the devil..This is fine as I know the Holy Bible offends...In fact, it is a book of war when it comes down to it. However, I do feel I am presenting my views in context according the the scriptures contained in the 66 books of the bible...The Gospel of Thomas and Q are all heretical along with all the other gnostic gospels...This has been established by the church and theologians for 2000 years.

enbesol, Understand this...I am not trying to convert you or anyone to what I believe...It is not my job to do such thing. Only God saves for it in his power...You are right in that God gave us the gift of free will....But understand, you are with out excuse...

1 Co 2:6-16
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?” But we have the mind of Christ.

I believe and could be wrong here but it seems to me that there is no answer that I can give you that will ever be right..
I can say that 2+2=4 and in your eyes I will still be wrong...You can say the John 14:6 is wrong even after I presented you with the original layout...Thats fine. I knew you would not accept it and I did not spend the time I did on it for you, but for others who may be lurking and searching for the truth....

[Didache]

Let's be accurate at least: Q is not a gnostic gospel, nor has ever been declared heretical. It was purely a hypothesis that there was a common sayings source used by Matthew and Luke (apart from Mark which predated them). Q is just short for Quelle which is German for "source".

Mike

[jgredline]

Let's be accurate at least: Q is not a gnostic gospel, nor has ever been declared heretical. It was purely a hypothesis that there was a common sayings source used by Matthew and Luke (apart from Mark which predated them). Q is just short for Quelle which is German for "source".

Mike

Agreed...I am glad to see you did not try and defend the Heresy of the gospel of thomas...
As far as ''Q'' goes, first, you are aware that it is more of a phantom document right?.
I am not suprised to hear you treat it as none heresy, since these ''sayings of Jesus'' is where Matthew and Luke got parts of their gospels from...The only folks that seem to defend this document are Liberal theologians because of how closely related it is to the gospel of thomas....Tell me Mike, What are your thoughts of the ''Jesus seminars''? Would you agree they are heretical?

Mike, to be fair, when I first saw your screen name, I said to myself...How very cool..A man of God...I believe ''The Didache'' to be good...Not inspired, but not hereticle..In fact it would teach against some of the things you believe...

[christiansoldier]

Javier, color me ignorant -

Would this be a fair summary of the 'Jesus Seminars'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

[jgredline]

Javier, color me ignorant -

Would this be a fair summary of the 'Jesus Seminars'?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Seminar

Soldier,
It has been a while since I have studied the Jesus Seminars, but basically it was a teaching straight from the pit of hell...This was lead by a fellow named Robert Funk if memory serves me well...He basically said the the Miracles jesus did never happened, that all prophecy is false, no old testament ...That Jesus may have said 20% of what we have in the bible etc...In other words, the bible as we know it is all wrong....

Perhaps do a google search on him...