Night shots on pier - need techinical advice bad!

[shesells]

Shot these last night. They are exactly the way the scene looked. All I did in PS is minor exposure correction in levels. A tiny S-curve, resize and usm in a small amount. I know there are problems with them that I could fix but I'm not interested in fixing them, or cropping them, what I want is to figure out how to take it right to begin with!

When shooting in the day, I instinctively know what to do by using the histogram and visually looking through the viewfinder. At night, basically I'm constantly guessing. I know it should be a somewhat long exposure, but how long? Then should I compensate with EV setting or ISO setting? What I did last night was start out in shutter Priority mode. Guessed at the time and took a few shots in different shutter speeds. Then I tried Aperture Priority mode, figuring I had to use a large aperture to let in more light. Well, I felt so uncontrolled that I ended up just using the Scene modes - twilight. I felt like that was cheating. Basically, In the past I've taken some great night shots but truthfully, they were all accidental! All I do is guess till I get it right. Next time out.. same thing.

So, if you looked at these scenes, as is, what would your photographic mind tell you when preparing to take the shots? I have read tons of stuff, but I feel that every situation is different. What I'm looking for is to hear others workflow when in the field. How do you judge the amount of timed exposure for instance? What do you actually think after the tripod is set up?

I don't want to resort to the automatic modes but it's bothersome to always be second guessing myself. Am I alone?
Thanks for listening and also for anwering.
Kit

[opus]

kit, while I've taken night shots before, I'm relatively new at "having control" over them. So what I have been doing is teaching myself. I'll come upon a scene and I'll take a look at it through the automatic mode, and see what the camera is recommending for the scene. Then I'll switch over to the manual mode, and set it for aperture priority, and take one picture at the shutter speed the camera decides on. Then, if perhaps I want to control the aperture, I'll go up or down and make an "educated guess" on the new shutter speed.

THEN, if I'm in the ballpark, I'll switch to full manual and bracket.

I figure I'm edumacating myself that way.

[shesells]

kit, while I've taken night shots before, I'm relatively new at "having control" over them. So what I have been doing is teaching myself. I'll come upon a scene and I'll take a look at it through the automatic mode, and see what the camera is recommending for the scene. Then I'll switch over to the manual mode, and set it for aperture priority, and take one picture at the shutter speed the camera decides on. Then, if perhaps I want to control the aperture, I'll go up or down and make an "educated guess" on the new shutter speed.

THEN, if I'm in the ballpark, I'll switch to full manual and bracket.

I figure I'm edumacating myself that way.

lol Kelly, That's about the same thing I do. But it never ends! I feel like it's a constant guessing game. It seems to me like other photographers just automatically know by the amount of light in a scene what to do. It's annoying to still be guessing and never get educated! (it's not for lack of studying either) It actually causes me some kind of anxiety, lol. I freeze. doh! Thank you so much, you make me feel better at least.
oh BTW, I love your idea for the sepia on that kid shot. Did you read my reply to it? Thanks for all your help Kelly.
Kit

[tab]

These night scenes look good to me, you must have still had some ambient light judging by the sky. When you take a picture at night you still have to think like a day shot but you are working with tighter parameters. Decide on the main subject of the image. Let that dictate your DOF and shutter speed. Depending on the subject you may need a flash to illuminate or freeze the subject, it may be better to rear-sync the flash as well so the background isn't totally black and any trailing motion isn't going in the wrong direction. As far as film speed goes use the fastest you can before the noise or grain becomes too much for you. The faster the speed you use the more latitude you will have with your shutter speed and aperture. The less movement in the image the greater latitude you will have for film speed, shutter and aperture. Use a tripod and do a lot of bracketing. I tend to shoot in A-priority or manual for night shots. I pick the aperture based on the DOF that I want and using a tripod I let the camera choose the shutter speed. Unless there is a lot of movement that I want to stop then I'm in manual or shutter priority. The reason is when shooting at night and shooting in program or shutter priority the camera will almost always choose the widest aperture it has available which may not be appropriate for the image I want to capture. The more you take the more you'll get the feel of which limits you can push under which circumstance.

[shesells]

These night scenes look good to me, you must have still had some ambient light judging by the sky. When you take a picture at night you still have to think like a day shot but you are working with tighter parameters. Decide on the main subject of the image. Let that dictate your DOF and shutter speed. Depending on the subject you may need a flash to illuminate or freeze the subject, it may be better to rear-sync the flash as well so the background isn't totally black and any trailing motion isn't going in the wrong direction. As far as film speed goes use the fastest you can before the noise or grain becomes too much for you. The faster the speed you use the more latitude you will have with your shutter speed and aperture. The less movement in the image the greater latitude you will have for film speed, shutter and aperture. Use a tripod and do a lot of bracketing. I tend to shoot in A-priority or manual for night shots. I pick the aperture based on the DOF that I want and using a tripod I let the camera choose the shutter speed. Unless there is a lot of movement that I want to stop then I'm in manual or shutter priority. The reason is when shooting at night and shooting in program or shutter priority the camera will almost always choose the widest aperture it has available which may not be appropriate for the image I want to capture. The more you take the more you'll get the feel of which limits you can push under which circumstance.

Thank you for giving me your actual thought process. That all makes so much sense. I'm surprized to see that you and Kelly both bracket your shots. I felt that I only do it because I'm not wise enough to zero in on the perfect setting. So you choose aperture based on DOF and not to let in more light? When using shutter-priority what tells you the original speed to use? Is there a setting you start with on your bracketing? I can do that. I think I just have made this harder than it is. Your comment about thinking like a day shot has given me a new way to look at it. It sure beats standing there dumbstruck "what do I do, what do I do?".
I'm printing out yours and kellys comments and reading them over and over. Also any other comments people make. I wish you knew what a hang up I have over this. I just have to get out there and practice, without the anxiety. When I do get some, good or bad, I'll post them in the photo critique forum. Anytime you see anything you would have done differently, please let me know.
Kit

[another view]

I just have to get out there and practice, without the anxiety.

Yep, that's a start ! I don't think your exposures are really off at all, are these not what you wanted?

Usually when I shoot in low light, I use the camera's spot meter and manual exposure. I take several meter readings and decide on my exposure based on that. Also, with film you'll have to take in to account reciprocity failure - basically film doesn't react exactly the same way with really long shutter speeds so sometimes you need to add a little additional exposure. Depends on the film and how long the shutter speed is. Some films have more of a problem with this than others and you can find out on the manufacturer's website what they suggest (spec sheet).

Another thing that I think is really helpful is a bubble level in the hotshoe to keep the horizons straight, although you did a good job with this.

[shesells]

Yep, that's a start ! I don't think your exposures are really off at all, are these not what you wanted?

Yes, I do like them. Problem is that if they came out good, it was nothing to do with me knowing what I was doing. I only guess and take tons of shots so the odds will be better that I'll get a good shot. Then I get frustrated and resort to using the automatic scene mode.

Usually when I shoot in low light, I use the camera's spot meter and manual exposure. I take several meter readings and decide on my exposure based on that. Also, with film you'll have to take in to account reciprocity failure - basically film doesn't react exactly the same way with really long shutter speeds so sometimes you need to add a little additional exposure. Depends on the film and how long the shutter speed is. Some films have more of a problem with this than others and you can find out on the manufacturer's website what they suggest (spec sheet).

I have a digital camera... Sony f717 and the spot meter is built into the lens. I do look at the live histogram and try to adjust accordingly. The thing I don't know is how long of a shutter speed is typical for this kind of scene. If you were to walk up on that scene in pic 1 for instance, what shutter speed would you begin with? 1 minute? 30 sec/?Less? more?
Is there a rule of thumb?

Another thing that I think is really helpful is a bubble level in the hotshoe to keep the horizons straight, although you did a good job with this.

Now that's a good idea, are there ones made specifically for this, or just sit one on the hot shoe?
Thank you for taking the time to help me and please reply and let me know about the level.
Kit

[another view]

The easy one, here's the bubble level I use, it works for both vertical and horizontal: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=263729&is=REG

For the first shot, it looks like the boards on the dock in the lower right and the sky are both around a "middle grey" tonality, so to speak. In other words, you could meter off of either one with the spot meter and shoot the scene based on the reading of either one of those two areas. They might be a little different, but they pretty close. I'd look at those two areas and also the bright areas on the dock where the lights are making the boards much brighter. They shouldn't be more than two stops brighter. It's easy to see that, because you've set your exposure in manual mode on one of those two areas, then meter on the light areas. It should read less than two stops of over exposure. If you're shooting digital, you've got about two stops over and two stops of under exposure before you start blowing the highlights and losing detail in the shadows. Because night shooting can be very contrasty, you'll be outside of this range for some areas in the scene. And because of this, there isn't necessarily a right or wrong exposure. It's your call here. If you do it this way, the histogram should confirm what you already know from spot metering the scene.

Hope this answers your questions - but let me know if not. The shutter speed you use is one of three exposure controls to take into account - don't forget about aperture and ISO speed. If you want to stop motion of people walking around, you'll have to use your widest aperture and probably highest ISO setting. Trade off is more "noise" (like grain, sort of) and smaller depth of field. You might be able to get a hand holdable shutter speed at ISO800 and f2.8 here, but you could also not worry about the motion of the people (let them blur) and stop the lens to f11 (example) and ISO100 - you'd could be a minute or so. Depends on the effect you're after.

Night shooting is a lot of fun and kind of surreal, everything can be interpreted in many different ways. Again, there's no right or wrong.

[shesells]

The easy one, here's the bubble level I use, it works for both vertical and horizontal: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist&A=details&Q=&sku=263729&is=REG

OMG that rules! never heard of it.

This information is invaluable to me. You and Tab and Kelly have helped me begin to understand in a very down to earth way. You make it so obvious that it's just common sense. That is so comforting to me, I don't know why I was making such a big deal out of it and making it harder than it is ( picture a giant chart of rules you have to memorize ). I'm printing this out so if I start freaking out, I'll just read it. It means a lot that you would all take the time to help.
Kit

[another view]

It means a lot that you would all take the time to help.

Well, thanks! That's what it's for.

[tab]

Another View brings up an important point that I didn't mention. Set your meter to spot or at least center weighted and if you can adjust how much is center weighted bring that levle down. I like to think from extremes and work from there. If you come upon a scene where there is no movement what so ever, set your camera on a tripod, choose an ISO that will not show alot of noise(digital) or grain(film) (unless you want it) and choose an aperture that will show the image as you want it. The camera will choose a long shutter speed which you should note. Everything is in balance and hopefully properly exposed. Now change something or move to manual. If you close the aperture one stop than you will have to slow the shutter one stop or go up one stop on the ISO or 1/2 stop on both. Looking for where to initially set the shutter speed? Put the camera in Program mode to see where the camera wants to go. Knowing that it may not be fast enough to avoid any small amount of movement from blurring. But if you speed it up you will have to open the aperture that amount or speed up the ISO. It's just a balancing act but instead of 2 sides there are 3. Plus you have to have a preconceived notion of how you want the image to come out then back it into those parameters. Like Another View writes reciprocity failure occurs on very long exposures and it is different for each type and brand of film used so don't worry about. Bracket your photos, pros do this all the time, especially if you shoot positive exposure (slide). If you're shooting digital or negative just bracket larger at least a stop. That is why on any pro camera it is very easy to turn on the bracket function. It is usually a button on the top of the body, No menus to search through to turn it on or off. I know you are rock steady and never flinch, we all are, but use a tripod if you can.

[Chunk]

OMG that rules! never heard of it.

This information is invaluable to me. You and Tab and Kelly have helped me begin to understand in a very down to earth way. You make it so obvious that it's just common sense. That is so comforting to me, I don't know why I was making such a big deal out of it and making it harder than it is ( picture a giant chart of rules you have to memorize ). I'm printing this out so if I start freaking out, I'll just read it. It means a lot that you would all take the time to help.
Kit

Now that you have your questions answered I'd like to say these are great shots that would work as good examples of attractive use of complementary colors. The blue/orange combination is always rich to me.
Do you have a filter on for these shots? It might be the cause of those reflections.

[shesells]

Now that you have your questions answered I'd like to say these are great shots that would work as good examples of attractive use of complementary colors. The blue/orange combination is always rich to me..

Coming from you, that's a compliment. I only wish I could get as good as you.

Do you have a filter on for these shots? It might be the cause of those reflections.

No, I don't have any filters on at all. They were taken over about an hour, so the light changed a bit but I swear this was the exact light there. I also did not use one single bit of saturation in PS.
What I wanted to capture was just what you said, the blue and orange. I guess like all photographers I'm fascinated by color combinations.( I also majored in art in college, so I do understand color, what i don't understand is cameras! ) The colors here (florida) are so fresh for some reason, also I actually think my camera does a good job of getting it.
First I was wishing I had spent a bit more and gone for the Sony- f828, but now I'm happy with my f717. Now if I can just control my camera and quit whining about it.. we will all be better off. ;)
I'm going out tonight to try again, now that I'm armed with new info. so feel free to add any more tips you think I need before tonight. I'll post my pics tomorrow. I adore you guys.
Kit

[shesells]

Another View brings up an important point that I didn't mention. Set your meter to spot or at least center weighted and if you can adjust how much is center weighted bring that levle down. .

I can set it to either of those but can't bring them down. I actually forgot to meter these scenes. I never think of doing that at night because not sure what to meter off off in weird light.

I like to think from extremes and work from there. If you come upon a scene where there is no movement what so ever, set your camera on a tripod, choose an ISO that will not show alot of noise(digital) or grain(film) (unless you want it) and choose an aperture that will show the image as you want it. The camera will choose a long shutter speed which you should note. .

I'm going to follow this exactly!

Everything is in balance and hopefully properly exposed. Now change something or move to manual. If you close the aperture one stop than you will have to slow the shutter one stop or go up one stop on the ISO or 1/2 stop on both. Looking for where to initially set the shutter speed? Put the camera in Program mode to see where the camera wants to go. Knowing that it may not be fast enough to avoid any small amount of movement from blurring. But if you speed it up you will have to open the aperture that amount or speed up the ISO. It's just a balancing act but instead of 2 sides there are 3. Plus you have to have a preconceived notion of how you want the image to come out then back it into those parameters..

There aren't enough thank yous' in the world for you.

.[/QUOTE] Like Another View writes reciprocity failure occurs on very long exposures and it is different for each type and brand of film used so don't worry about. Bracket your photos, pros do this all the time, especially if you shoot positive exposure (slide). If you're shooting digital or negative just bracket larger at least a stop. That is why on any pro camera it is very easy to turn on the bracket function. It is usually a button on the top of the body, No menus to search through to turn it on or off. I know you are rock steady and never flinch, we all are, but use a tripod if you can.[/QUOTE]I always go to the menu for bracketing, which is a pain. I'll inspect my camera to see if there is a quick button of some kind. I did and do use a tripod, and I just received my remote from sony, so that will improve the shaking I'm sure.

I have looked up all this information in books that I have on photography, but it is always so confusing to me, never explained in this easy to understand way.
Thank you, really.
Kit

[shesells]

I just realized what you meant by the "reflection". If you're talking about the pink in the sky, it was no reflection. The sun had just set and that was all that was left over. It's more apparent in the larger version of this shot. Weird huh? There was another one peeking out over the water in the east, but it was more distinct. Here ya go.

[Chunk]

I just realized what you meant by the "reflection". If you're talking about the pink in the sky, it was no reflection. The sun had just set and that was all that was left over. It's more apparent in the larger version of this shot. Weird huh? There was another one peeking out over the water in the east, but it was more distinct. Here ya go.

It fooled me alright. It seems so much more out of focus than the surrounding clouds. That spot and another lighter one toward the left of the second shot about the same distance and angle from the left hand light. There was another recent thread about reflections with a neon sign and thought this was similar.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.

[shesells]

It fooled me alright. It seems so much more out of focus than the surrounding clouds. That spot and another lighter one toward the left of the second shot about the same distance and angle from the left hand light. There was another recent thread about reflections with a neon sign and thought this was similar.
Thanks for taking the time to explain.

Here's how it looked not long before that shot, but his one was underexposed too much. Anyway, last night, I took my new info out to a park and was prepared to get some excellent shots. Prob was, it was the crappiest sunset you could get, so instead i practiced taking shots of boats and water skiers. I so suck at those actions shots so it was great practicing, using all the stuff you guys said. The pics? well, not too great, but I'll show them if you want. First I get the boat only, then the skier only, then the wake only..lol Thats so hard for me to time it right, but did improve a bit. Oh also, I was standing in a fire ant mound. mmm fun.
I'll post the action shots in a bit, I need a little nappy.
Kit