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  1. #1
    Senior Member racingpinarello's Avatar
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    off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    On Christmas day my Subaru was hit and run, causing $2k in damages. In Sequoia Natl Park, of all places. Then my girlfriend got her car keyed.

    But the saddest was when a friend found an abandoned Black Lab. An incredibly smart and beautiful dog, even with his stubborn streak. He's so great around kids, and perfect in the house. How somebody can drop him off with no care in the world beats me.

    His signs show that he was physically abused, and left alone for days. When I think about this dog, or the victims of the Tsnuami, my worst days don't compare.

    I hope that everybody has a good day, and wish good luck.

    btw..his name is now Montana (for Big Sky country).

    Loren
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    Loren Crannell
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  2. #2
    Liz
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    Talking Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Loren,

    I'm so sorry to hear you've had such a run of it lately. On Christmas day.....good grief! Were you in the car? Either way, I'm glad you weren't hurt - I'm assuming you would have told us. And your poor girlfriend.

    Now, the black lab looks sooooo sweet. Montana is the perfect name. Is he yours now - or your friend's?

    Your right about other people having it worse. It's unfathomable all the things that are going on today in the lives of people. However, the way the world is reaching out to those in need is very encouraging.

    It's good to see your around, Loren. I hope you'll post some of your pictures.

    Liz

  3. #3
    Obsessive-compulsive... Steph_B's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    I'm sure glad Montana found a warm, welcoming and loving home to call his own. Cruelty is a human trait.

  4. #4
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Steph_B
    I Cruelty is a human trait.
    Unfortunately, this is so true. The core of human nature is sadistic and violent. We can try to overcome these basic human traits but they are always with us.

    My friend also adopted an abused Doberman, a purebred with papers no less. After these many years, she is still wary and skittish around males. It took several years to get her to trust me.
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

  5. #5
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Seems like some people think that if they don't get caught then they didn't do anything wrong.

    But doing something like that to a dog is on a whole different level. My wife and I have helped out the Malamute rescue group here in IL and unfortunately heard many similar stories. I'm just so glad that you've stepped in to help.

  6. #6
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Michael Fanelli
    Unfortunately, this is so true. The core of human nature is sadistic and violent.
    I can't disagree more. I think it's more of a human trait to be humane, kind and caring. I look around and see far more nice and generous people than I do angry and cruel. One could write this off as due to societal pressures to 'do right", but I think in general, we are "moral" by nature, and in general, use violence and cruelty for protection. I believe those who display cruelty and anger are the exception, not the rule. People, by nature, are good.

    I simply love dogs. Cats too. And guinnea pigs and hamsters and horses and cows and deer... You get my point. I am definatley not a PETA person, but I love creatures. Anyway, my wife and I are looking for an adult dog (she won't let me have a puppy). We keep checking the local SPCA and Humane Society for the perfect match. No luck yet. This lab is beautiful and will make someone very happy I suspect!

  7. #7
    Sitting in a Leaky Dingy Michael Fanelli's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Patten
    I can't disagree more. I think it's more of a human trait to be humane, kind and caring. I look around and see far more nice and generous people than I do angry and cruel. One could write this off as due to societal pressures to 'do right", but I think in general, we are "moral" by nature, and in general, use violence and cruelty for protection. I believe those who display cruelty and anger are the exception, not the rule. People, by nature, are good.
    Do you have kids? Look at any young child, they have to be taught right from wrong. Kids will tear wings off of flies, burn ants with a magnifier, phsically attack dogs, cats, etc. They beat up their siblings. With no one to guide them, they follow their own inherent human nature. So many violent felons were raised without parental guidence, without being taught ways to control their natural instincts.

    Good is obvious because it is the exception. This is why "with God's grace" is heard for the good that happens and "God doesn't get involved" when bad is done. There is a realization of original sin, original evil.

    War is continuous. Crime is continuous. Genocide is continuous. Animal cruelty is continuous. The violence of human nature is neither morally good or bad, it just is. Maybe we are being bred by aliens as galactic soldiers!
    "Every great decision creates ripples--like a huge boulder dropped in a lake. The ripples merge and rebound off the banks in unforseeable ways.

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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    I have two little boys that bicker, fight, play and love each other.

    Your argument has been thrown around for some time. However, it fails to recognize that it is human nature to nurture our young. This is part of it. You can't simply rip it away from the equation. Of course if one is left unguided they will do what it takes to survive. This is no different than a wild dog.

    By the way, kids do not naturally attack animals and seek to destroy. As a matter of fact, I have NEVER seen a young child act aggressively towards an animal unless prompted to. They may be unknowingly rough, but at two years old, a child barely knows not to rip off it's own hair. It's part of fine motor skills development.

    Once again, I disagree. I do not follow a religious faith, but I do have faith in people. People are by nature, good. Societies may not be so good, but individuals are.

  9. #9
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    I agree with Todd.

    I tend to believe a person is kind and caring, until they prove otherwise. Whether these traits are human nature or a learned behavior, I don't know. I know that my children are considerate and loving, is that because that is what we've taught them? Maybe. But it would go against our nature to teach them anything else.

    And you could argue that people with violent tendancies learned that behavior. By lack of parenting, or abusive parenting, it could teach someone that the apropriate response to a situation is violence. Or that a person is not accountable for thier actions.

    Goes both ways....I think it depends on what your personal beliefs are....

    adina
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  10. #10
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    We may have been bred by aliens, you're right Michael. There's more evidence suggesting that than not

    However, I do see our nature as loving, honest and joyful. Kids are this until they're taught not to be, or until a basic need is not met and they revert to low behaviour in an attempt to win love or attention.

    Our not our kids the best perveyors of truth?

    Do not our kids run around hugging everything?

    Happy?

    Violence is shown to our kids every day, from Tom and Jerry or Roadrunner and Coyote to Power Rangers and Powerpuff Girls. We sit them in front of tv to babysit them then can't figure out why they set up backyard wrestling rings and annhilate each other.

    Our natural state is love. Everything else is fear IMO

    Rick
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    mooo...wooh hoooh! schrackman's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    If all men are by nature good and loving, as some of you above believe, then why does man need so many restraints from doing evil (whether divine, natural or man-made restraints)?

    And just what is your definition of "good" and "loving"? If someone occasionally lies, or steals or cheats, is he still a good and loving person despite the injustice he has done to another?

    Ray

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  12. #12
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick
    We may have been bred by aliens, you're right Michael. There's more evidence suggesting that than not
    I love you, you goddamn hippie freak! I can't believe they haven't sent you back to Berkeley yet.
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  13. #13
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Hee hee... But John gets a demerit!

  14. #14
    Senior Member Lara's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    I love you, you goddamn hippie freak! I can't believe they haven't sent you back to Berkeley yet.
    Wiping tears from my eyes from laughing so hard. LOLOL

    All I can say is people like Rick make up for the cruel people in this world Loren. Sorry to hear what happened to you at Christmas. Who ever these people are, I believe the addage, "what goes around, comes around."
    Lara


  15. #15
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by schrackman
    If all men are by nature good and loving, as some of you above believe, then why does man need so many restraints from doing evil (whether divine, natural or man-made restraints)?

    And just what is your definition of "good" and "loving"? If someone occasionally lies, or steals or cheats, is he still a good and loving person despite the injustice he has done to another?

    Ray
    Ray -- most sociologists and phychologists say that lying is a natural and, at times, healthy part of human development. For example, when a parent explains to a child that they are can't tell momma what they picked out for a present. Or explaining to the child that it is better to tell a friend that the picture of a cow they just illustrated looks great, than to have them say it looks nothing like a cow. Lying is a very normal part of our behaviour. There's no question that this can be taken to an extreme, but so can many things. Even good things like religion.

    I also believe that one can be inately "good" even if they steal or cheat. It is inherent that we know that stealing is wrong. However, it does not mean someone is evil. It means they have made mistakes. I have to say, I remember being a yound child and taking a friends toy without him knowing -- I stole it. Does that mean I am not a good person even though I give money to my sons church (regardless of the fact that I do not believe in it's teachings), coach t-ball, open doors for old ladies and say "thank you" to the lady at McDonalds each morning (bad habit, those McD's Sausage Egg and Cheese Bagels).

    Cheating, be it at a game, in a relationship or any situation is wrong. However, it does not mean that we as humans are inately evil. "Good" does not mean "Perfect". It simply means that we know what is the right thing to do and try to do it as often as we can.

    Man does not "need" restraints. Unfortunately, organized religion and many governments has convinced many that this is true. You make it seem as if we did not have these "restraints" everyone would suddenly join in anarchy. Sit back and take a look -- these restraints are MAN MADE. Given that the restraints are what many define as "good", this leads me to believe that man is, by nature, good.

  16. #16
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Let's chant together now!

    oooooooooooooooooommmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...

    Hippie by heart, scientist in my mind ;)

    Rick
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    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    "All I can say is people like Rick make up for the cruel people in this world Loren."

    Aww, thanks hon. Now's probably not a good time to tell you I cheated on my shop test in the 9th grade.

    I got an F anyway.
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  18. #18
    Senior Member racingpinarello's Avatar
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    Well said...

    Quote Originally Posted by walterick

    Do not our kids run around hugging everything?

    Happy?

    Our natural state is love. Everything else is fear IMO

    Rick
    Having seen my niece and nephews grow up, I can personally attest that they are loving children until thought to be otherwise.

    Hopefully my children will be as loving as they are.

    I'm glad that this post brought out good dialogue and even with strong opinions, nobody was offended.

    Loren
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  19. #19
    mooo...wooh hoooh! schrackman's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Hi Todd,

    I never did like sociologists/psychologists all that much, simply because I think they rationalize and justify wrong behavior more often than not. I don't find your examples of children very convincing, since you have them being instructed by parents not to be honest. Furthermore, I think we all know the difference between holding back the truth for fun (keeping a present secret) or unnecessarily hurting someone's feelings and intentionally twisting the truth or fabrictating something for our own self-serving desires. The former could be considered normal/healthy and even compassionate, but the latter is just plain evil. And evil is not just some obscure theory...it is malevolent or illicit behavior that begins in our hearts and is manifested through our actions and behavior. Man does evil, because evil exists within him.

    Now, to a kid, stealing his toy would be like my stealing your golf clubs (assuming you had golf clubs). What kind of person would do that? A good person? I think not. A thief? I think so. And the evil a thief does is worthy of punishment, is it not? You've shared with us what good things you now do as an adult, but you failed to share with us the bad things you do as well. If you are like other men, they are probably about as numerous as the good things you claim to do. Most people I encounter who are not religious tend to think that the good things they do cancel out the bad. And I often wonder if they ever think in the opposite terms: that the bad things they do cancel out the good things. Of course I know they don't think this way, because "Every man thinks he is right in his own eyes" despite whatever evil he has committed. I once was of that persuasion.

    As a devoted religious person and faithful to my beliefs, not even I can claim to be good, Todd, because I know the propensity for evil that still dwells within me despite my conversion to Christ. There is really only one who is good, and his name is God, and when I compare myself to him, well, there is no comparison. I am deemed righteous by God not because of my inherent human nature, but only because of my faith in him to redeem me from that human nature. I can now do that which is truly good, but only because good (God) is now with me.

    I wholly believe that if you let the beast loose, the beast will act like a beast. Without restraints man would be far worse off than he already is. There are many things that serve as restraints, and not all of them "man-made". There are divine restraints, such as what God provides for his people to keep them in "the way". There are natural restraints, such as those consequences that would naturally ensue from your doing wrong. For example, hit your wife and she just may leave you. There are man-made restraints, i.e. laws passed to protect ourselves from ourselves because we know what we are capable of. And then there is the human conscience (which I believe to be God-given), which inwardly reminds us that what we are about to do is inherently wrong, even if there isn't a man-made law against it. All these things serve to restrain man to some degree or another, because man is in need of restraining. This, to me, is simply one proof that man is not inherently good.


    By the way, Loren, that dog reminds me of my dog, whose name is Peter. Peter is part lab and part shepherd, and the lady I got him from found him and his sister roaming the streets when they were puppies. Somebody had just let them go too. Here's a recent pic of him. Ain't he a cutie?

    Ray
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  20. #20
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    I think the term evil here is being used rather loosly.

    For example. My oldest came downstairs with vanilla smelling lip gloss shmeared on her cheeks. This was probably about 2 years ago. As soon as I saw and smelled her, I knew exactly where she had been. So I asked her what was on her cheeks. Her reply...nothing. So I say, it looks like lipgloss, where you playing in my makeup? Her reply...no. Well okay, then how did you get lip gloss on your cheeks. Her relpy...I don't know.

    Now given she knew exactly how it got there and what it was, I knew she was lying. Why? Because she knew that it was a mistake and she didn't want to get in trouble. A mistake. That's all. Did she get in trouble for the lip gloss, no. But we did have a discussion about telling the truth. Was this her inner badness coming out? Nope, this was child's curiosity. That's all. Is she evil? No, not in the least bit, and I would have to clock anyone who would suggest otherwise.

    And here comes one of the only religious comments I'll make, which I try to refrain from, because it isn't a discussion worth participating in. My views aren't going to change yours, your views aren't going to change mine. I don't agree with telling people that they are bad or evil. Whether it be the church, the government, parenting, school, whatever. The action they may have taken might be bad, but to tell someone that they are, especially a child, does nothing but trample thier self esteem, and encourage further similar behavior. After all, they are bad or evil person. Why strive for anything else.
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  21. #21
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by schrackman
    I never did like sociologists/psychologists all that much, simply because I think they rationalize and justify wrong behavior more often than not
    I suspect that you distrust most scientifical explanations?

    I find your philosophy very depressing and self depreciating. I would like to know what you believe is behavior that is "bad" and behavior that is "good". I find it extremely hard to comprehend that one would think that people do equally as many bad things in the run of a life as they do bad things. I mean, we all do "good" things every single day. Opening doors, donating money, adopting children, comforting friends, complimenting a clerk at a store, giving a simple smile to someone. I promise you, good things outweigh the bad by a longshot.

    The picture you paint is of a human nature who is only restricted by rule of law, be it religion or societal. You describe someone who should be suffering from internal torture every second they breathe. It's a truly sad and bleak vision of the world and human nature.

    People are good. I see it every day in so many ways. I rarely see people who are bad. Very, very rarely.

  22. #22
    mooo...wooh hoooh! schrackman's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Hi Adina,

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    I think the term evil here is being used rather loosly.

    For example. My oldest came downstairs with vanilla smelling lip gloss shmeared on her cheeks. This was probably about 2 years ago. As soon as I saw and smelled her, I knew exactly where she had been. So I asked her what was on her cheeks. Her reply...nothing. So I say, it looks like lipgloss, where you playing in my makeup? Her reply...no. Well okay, then how did you get lip gloss on your cheeks. Her relpy...I don't know.

    Now given she knew exactly how it got there and what it was, I knew she was lying. Why? Because she knew that it was a mistake and she didn't want to get in trouble. A mistake. That's all. Did she get in trouble for the lip gloss, no. But we did have a discussion about telling the truth. Was this her inner badness coming out? Nope, this was child's curiosity. That's all. Is she evil? No, not in the least bit, and I would have to clock anyone who would suggest otherwise.
    Unless she was told beforehand that your lip gloss was off limits, then I would agree this was simply a mistake, an unintentional error. However, if she knew she wasn't supposed to be in your lip gloss, then what you have is not a mistake but a clear act of disobedience, which would need to be dealt with. Her lying, on the other hand, was clearly intentional and designed to squirm out of whatever trouble she thought she was going to get into, and you were right to correct her for it. Now you may not think her lying hasn't anything to do with an inherent evil nature, but what else would you call it? You can't call it a mistake or a taught trait, because mistakes are not intentional and I am sure you didn't teach her to lie.

    And here comes one of the only religious comments I'll make, which I try to refrain from, because it isn't a discussion worth participating in.
    To tell you the truth, I wish more people here would comment on religious subjects, even those who aren't themselves religious. It's a shame, but I've actually got pm's from members of this forum who have said they wish they could speak as openly as I do about religion, but were afraid of what others might say or think about them. That shouldn't be the case here.

    My views aren't going to change yours, your views aren't going to change mine.
    Well, you never know about that.

    I don't agree with telling people that they are bad or evil. Whether it be the church, the government, parenting, school, whatever. The action they may have taken might be bad, but to tell someone that they are, especially a child, does nothing but trample thier self esteem, and encourage further similar behavior. After all, they are bad or evil person. Why strive for anything else?
    This is a good question. No one is saying, for example, you have to call someone "evil" for lying. All you need to do is let them know they are a "liar" and they'll know they have done evil. And one who has done evil should not feel good about themselves anyway. What they need to feel is guilt and shame for what they have done, for only then will they really stand a chance of correcting themselves and not repeating their error. And that is what you want people to strive for--to correct their erroneous ways. Calling evil for what it is isn't what encourages similar behavior; failure to confront the evil and punish it, however, will. That, I believe, is why we have so many repeat criminals. The original sentence wasn't tough enough to deter them from doing it again. Either that or they are simply incorrigible.

    Ray

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  23. #23
    mooo...wooh hoooh! schrackman's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Quote Originally Posted by Todd Patten
    I suspect that you distrust most scientifical explanations?

    I find your philosophy very depressing and self depreciating. I would like to know what you believe is behavior that is "bad" and behavior that is "good". I find it extremely hard to comprehend that one would think that people do equally as many bad things in the run of a life as they do bad things. I mean, we all do "good" things every single day. Opening doors, donating money, adopting children, comforting friends, complimenting a clerk at a store, giving a simple smile to someone. I promise you, good things outweigh the bad by a longshot.

    The picture you paint is of a human nature who is only restricted by rule of law, be it religion or societal. You describe someone who should be suffering from internal torture every second they breathe. It's a truly sad and bleak vision of the world and human nature.

    People are good. I see it every day in so many ways. I rarely see people who are bad. Very, very rarely.
    Hi Todd,

    There could be various explanations as to why you only see "good" in people. The first is perhaps you don't want to see any bad in them, even if it is plain view. Some people are like that. The second is you really don't know what other people do in private or in public, do you? You only see a glimpse of them as they open the door for you, or say hello, or volunteer for the local pta. You don't see them when they cheat on their taxes, or spread gossip about others, or lie to their wives, etc. Even your closest friends could be doing things that you don't know about. To say that you rarely see people do bad implies to me that perhaps you're not looking very closely, or that you don't permit yourself to be keenly aware of it, or that you just choose to ignore it.

    Regarding scientific explanations, I have no problem with such things so long as they are truly scientific.

    As for my so-called sad and bleak outlook, quite the opposite is true. I don't walk around tortured. On the contrary, I am a very happy person despite all the evil that goes on in this world. My view is simply to paint man as he is, not as I would would like him to be. That's just being a realist.

    I would like to know what you believe is behavior that is "bad" and behavior that is "good".
    That's easy. Glad you asked. Anything that God commands or encourages me to do is good; anything that he forbids or warns me not to do is bad. It's much easier this way because every man has his own standard ("Every man thinks he is right in his own eyes") while God has one standard for all. Same question to you...what is it that you believe is good/bad behavior?

    Ray

    Ray O'Canon
    Digital Rebel XTi • Digital Rebel • Canonet GIII QL17 • Agfa Parat-1

    The liberal, socialist politician's nightmare: "What a comfort to the farmer to be allowed to supply his own wants before he should be liable to pay anything, and then only pay on his surplus." - Jefferson to Madison on Taxes,1784

    My Canonet GIII QL-17 photos on flickr.

  24. #24
    Senior Member racingpinarello's Avatar
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    I think people are kind.

    Quote Originally Posted by schrackman
    There could be various explanations as to why you only see "good" in people. The first is perhaps you don't want to see any bad in them, even if it is plain view. Some people are like that. The second is you really don't know what other people do in private or in public, do you? You only see a glimpse of them as they open the door for you, or say hello, or volunteer for the local pta. You don't see them when they cheat on their taxes, or spread gossip about others, or lie to their wives, etc. Even your closest friends could be doing things that you don't know about. To say that you rarely see people do bad implies to me that perhaps you're not looking very closely, or that you don't permit yourself to be keenly aware of it, or that you just choose to ignore it.


    Ray
    Ray there are also times, when people surprise you with good and kindness, but I digress for a second.

    While some people may be self absorbed, selfish, or not nice to other people it doesn't make them evil. Evil and mean spirit are premeditated, such as Scott Petersen (killer) being an evil guy.

    A child squirms and tells a fib to test the limits and boundries of parents. They don't have the vocabulary or the reasoning to say, "you know mom, I was trying this stuff on to be like you because you are so pretty." It's social behavior to test limits and to experiment. Adina was being a firm parent and they tested her boundries, and in the end they learned a lesson.

    But back to my first sentence. At Citigroup, the firm offered $3 million to the tsnuami aid relief plan, and would match any employee contribution up to $10,000. As of last night, Citigroup and it's employees raised over $7.7 million dollars. We're a bunch of self absorbed greedy bastards, but hey we're not evil, and we showed it with our wallets. I was surprised to see such an emotional response from the partners and the firm.

    In the mid-west, and in foreign countries I have seen exceptional levels of kindness, forgiving, and patience. It's my belief in humans that deep down they are good or Shakesperean plays like MacBeth would have no grounds. There is a reason that we have a conscious, and it's because people will do the right thing a majority of the time. I am not very religious, but have faith in my fellow man/woman/doggie woogie.

    Loren
    Loren Crannell
    LC Photography
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    * Any photographer worth his salt has 10,000 bad negatives under his belt. - Ansel Adams

  25. #25
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: off topic: The cruelty of people, I will never understand.

    Hello Ray

    Devil's advocate:

    What if I defined "good" as that which benefits human kind, and "bad" as that which hinders it?

    Rick

    ps I know I still owe you an email
    Walter Rick Long
    Nikon Samurai, Mamiya Master, Velvia Bandit


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