ex-Korn guitarist finds God!

[schrackman]

Drew,

Yes, those are good observations! And precisely why I said the law was given "in part" to distinguish Israel from the other nations. Another reason why the law was given, and this was taught by the apostle Paul when he wrote to the Galatians, is that the law was also meant act as a "schoolmaster" to point out sin, i.e. our "missing the mark" fo God's righteous standard. By the law God pointed out sin, the condemnation that belongs to sin, and the remedy for sin (which is sacrifice for atonement), God is able to direct the sinner to repent of his sin and turn in faith to Christ for mercy and forgiveness and amendment of life, which is in essence the Gospel (good news) message of salvation.

[Axle]

Yes, yes! And that's why God sent his son to act as the ultimate atonment sacrifice to resolve us of our sin once and forever!

[adina]

We are getting a puppy.

[almo]

"We are getting a puppy."

;)

[paulnj]

MAKE SURE you take it swimming ;)

[Michael Fanelli]

What about eating meat on Fridays? Is that still a sin?

That rule was for Catholics. It was introduced by the Pope to help the fishermen in France by eliminating meat one day a week. It had nothing to do with scripture, purely political.

[schrackman]

That rule was for Catholics. It was introduced by the Pope to help the fishermen in France by eliminating meat one day a week. It had nothing to do with scripture, purely political.

I have to take back my previous statement that to eat meat on Fridays is to break Catholic tradition. In actuality, it is to violate the Catholic code of Canon Law, to which Catholics are bound to observe and of which states thus:

Canon 1250* All Fridays through the year and the time of Lent are penitential days and times throughout the entire Church.

Canon 1251* Abstinence from eating meat or another food according to the prescriptions of the conference of bishops is to be observed on Fridays throughout the year unless (nisi) they are solemnities; abstinence and fast are to be observed on Ash Wednesday and on the Friday of the Passion and Death of Our Lord Jesus Christ.

Canon 1252* All persons who have completed their fourteenth year are bound by the law of abstinence; all adults are bound by the law of fast up to the beginning of their sixtieth year. Nevertheless, pastors and parents are to see to it that minors who are not bound by the law of fast and abstinence are educated in an authentic sense of penance.

Contrast this to the the apostle Paul's teaching:

Now the Spirit speaketh expressly that, in the latter times, some shall depart from the faith, giving heed to seducing spirits, and doctrines of demons, speaking lies in hypocrisy, having their conscience seared with a hot iron, forbidding to marry, and to abstain from foods, which God hath created to be received with thanksgiving by them who believe and know the truth. (1 Timothy 4:1-3)

So you are correct in saying that abstaining from meat on Friday had nothing to do with Scripture.

[Axle]

Ah, human religion. It has some good sides, and bad sides. Just like us.

[walterick]

So, if I'm heaing you correcty,

Christianity says:

We're all inbred

Jesus wanted his followers to be "separate and different" from the rest of the world

It's still okay to eat a burger on Fridays

Well, you're all wrong! Ha!

Pretty sure all of humanity didn't come from 2 people.

Jesus taught us to see ourselves as one with each other, one with him, one with God, one in life. If he was who it's said he was he would never preach separatism. To do so would contradict his goals (and life)

Okay, I guess eating meat on Fridays isn't wrong. It's those crazy Mondays you gotta watch out for.

I suppose next you're going to tell me it's a sin to have sex before marriage? Sheesh! What's this world coming to?!



Rick

btw I happen to be very fond of carnal dancing ;)

[schrackman]

So, if I'm heaing you correcty,

Christianity says: We're all inbred.

No. To be "inbred" means that your immediate parents are of a close relation. We are far removed from Adam and Eve, and the ancient civilizations that practiced inbreeding, and so it is not really accurate to say we are inbred.

Jesus wanted his followers to be "separate and different" from the rest of the world

Yes, in their deeds and behavior.

It's still okay to eat a burger on Fridays[/COLOR]

Yep.

Pretty sure all of humanity didn't come from 2 people.

Tell that to Mitochondrial Eve, or rather, her supporters. The Bible similarly states, by the way, that Eve was the "mother of all living". Interestingly enough, scientists in favor of the "Out of Africa" theory propose to trace the origin of modern humans via the maternal line.

Jesus taught us to see ourselves as one with each other, one with him, one with God, one in life. If he was who it's said he was he would never preach separatism. To do so would contradict his goals (and life)

Correction. Jesus taught his followers, not "us" (as in all humanity), that they were one in him and one in God. The thing that unites them together is their faith in Christ, and the goal of Christ is to redeem men from sin. Therefore, Jesus was quite comfortable in teaching his disciples to be separate (again, in deed and behavior) from sin and the world in order to manifest his saving power.

I suppose next you're going to tell me it's a sin to have sex before marriage?

Yep. But let's call it what it is--fornication. Euphemisms are for wimps.

Sheesh! What's this world coming to?!

According to the Bible? Judgment.

[opus]

MY OPINION, which matters for nothing, I suppose, but formulated from other boards I've visited:

1) There is no requirement that all posts in Viewfinder contain photo content. Please don't make it so or this will just become another Critique, which can get boring after awhile. I've learned things about my fellow posters that I think are wonderful, deep things, making me view them as much richer human beings.

2) A "living room" where we share "philosophies" is, in my vision, just like a real living room at a family reunion. We're a big family, getting to know each other. Some people enjoy discussing religion and politics. The "etiquette" rule about avoiding such subjects is only in "polite" company, which is much more formal than our gathering here. There's no law against discussing it among friends in a casual setting.

3) Some people are, understandably, uncomfortable with such a topic. Well, if that's you, and the thread title is clearly marked as containing religious or political content, then simply DON'T OPEN THE THREAD!

4) I mean, really, I could open a thread about someone's kids and state that I hate discussions about people's kids, and the only one out of place in that situation would be me. If I don't like it, I leave.

5) If the discussion gets nasty, with personal attacks flying (NOT simply personal opinions!), then someone can report their offense, and the proper authority can step in and put a stop to it.

6) If every other thread in Viewfinder becomes a religious or political (or otherwise controversial) thread, then I can understand the moderators' concern about the general impression that visitors will get from the site. At that point, a decision can be made about whether to set up another forum strictly for controversial threads, or if an appeal can be made to please cut back on them or restrain them to one or two threads.

7) But I think visitors know what to expect from a "general" forum, and I think they actually WANT such an outlet. I actually visit a different site much more often than this one for the very reason that I can post off-topic threads on their general forum, and I've made some very close friends in the process. I can't say that about here, because sometimes I come here and look for something interesting and can't find anything, because it's all about other people's individual and personal life that I have to comment on, and nobody's asking me about mine. Does that make sense? There's only so much "Great exposure, but I'd like to see it cropped a bit differently" I can say before I get bored. I want to KNOW the people here! And I want to BE known!


Oh, and may I add that I'm a total peace lover, diplomat, and avoider of conflict. But I see allowing these types of discussions as a way to understand each other. Because there is nobody forcing anybody else to listen. It's just a free exchange of ideas.

Thank you. We now return you to the original programming.

*stepping off soapbox*

[opus]

"ex-Korn guitarist finds God!"


Why, was God lost?


;)

[walterick]

"so it is not really accurate to say we are inbred."

Then all of humanity was derived through several generations of inbreeding.

Twice.

And I still don't think Jesus wanted us to see ourselves as separate from each other. Every major spiritual/philosophical/religious system in the world preaches unity, harmony, togetherness, oneness. Jesus was no different. To raise yourself above others is to appear "holier than thou" and that is one thing that not a single human being can stand. It is natural - ie, built into our nature by god - to destroy that which is holier, higher, bigger than us. Why? Because being "holier" is a lie. Each and every one of us is holy, sacred, and sanctified in the eyes of god. There is no "better" way of living. God loves each of us no matter what choices we make in life (no matter how destructive those choices have become) and part of that love is not to judge us or interfere with our free will! If you sit your children down to play a game, do you tell them they can play it whichever way they please (free will) and then give them 10 Commandments to tell them to behave a certain way? No, of course not. That would be lunacy.

The end is guarateed. We all return home, to the Source, God, Oneness, whatever. The universe will fold in upon itself in a few millenia and life will go to sleep. It is inevitable. What matters is how you play the game while you're here. Were you playing the Life game well? Poorly? In the end it doesn't matter. We're all going home. It's a matter of are you happy with your choices?!

There's my religious diatribe for the day.

Rick

btw Fornicating is for lovers ;)

[schrackman]

Then all of humanity was derived through several generations of inbreeding. Twice.

No, not everyone inbred in ancient times, mind you.

And I still don't think Jesus wanted us to see ourselves as separate from each other. Every major spiritual/philosophical/religious system in the world preaches unity, harmony, togetherness, oneness. Jesus was no different

Well, Rick, the truth is your opinion here finds no basis in the teachings of either Jesus or his apostles. Jesus taught the unity of believers (John 17), not a unity of mankind like some philosophers and religious sages have taught. There is no hiding the fact that the God of the Bible clearly distinguishes mankind into two classes: the righteous/just and the unrighteous/wicked, believers in/followers of Jesus Christ and those who disbelieve him and refuse to follow him, those who inherit eternal life and those who are sentenced to eternal perdition. So I don't understand how you arrived at the conclusion you did about what Jesus would or would not teach.

To raise yourself above others is to appear "holier than thou" and that is one thing that not a single human being can stand.

Who said anything about raising ourselves above others? It is God who determines who is holy and who is not, and he has determined that whosoever should believe in Christ may be sanctified, made holy, or set apart unto God by the sacrifice of Christ himself (Heb. 10:10; 1 Pet. 1:2). We live holily because we have been made holy through faith in the Son of God.

It is natural - ie, built into our nature by god - to destroy that which is holier, higher, bigger than us. Why? Because being "holier" is a lie. Each and every one of us is holy, sacred, and sanctified in the eyes of god. There is no "better" way of living. God loves each of us no matter what choices we make in life (no matter how destructive those choices have become) and part of that love is not to judge us or interfere with our free will! If you sit your children down to play a game, do you tell them they can play it whichever way they please (free will) and then give them 10 Commandments to tell them to behave a certain way? No, of course not. That would be lunacy.

Rick, I have to stop here and ask you what I asked Paul. Who is this "god" you speak of? I speak of the biblical God, but the god you speak of contradicts my God. So who is this god of yours? What is his name, if he has one, and how did he reveal the above "truth" to you, if indeed he reveals anything to man? What are his other "truths" or principles, and how did you come to learn them? You know how I get my information, so how do you get yours?

The end is guarateed. We all return home, to the Source, God, Oneness, whatever. The universe will fold in upon itself in a few millenia and life will go to sleep. It is inevitable. What matters is how you play the game while you're here. Were you playing the Life game well? Poorly? In the end it doesn't matter. We're all going home. It's a matter of are you happy with your choices?!

**warning: the following response may contain intense sarcasm intented to maximize the effect of the bad/good rationale contrast. read at your own risk of being enlightened**

Why would it matter how you play the game if in the end it doesn't really matter and we all return to the same state of being or whatever it is you believe? With that kind of logic, one may as well pursue whatever evil it is he/she desires in life, even if it means aspiring to be a Hitler or Son of Sam or some other degenerate. I guess I could brutally murder the one closest to you so long as it makes me happy, and hey, it's okay, because in the end it won't matter anyway. We're ALL going home together. Yippee ay-yay! We've discovered the truth at last.

Uh-oh. Now I'VE gone and done it.

[opus]

And now for my contribution to the thread topic, re: the inbreeding thing.

Since the Bible says that God created man in perfection, but then Adam sinned, well, even then he was still very close to perfection, only a few years away from it. So "inbreeding" at the time wouldn't lead to the problems we have today, when we are so FAR from that original state.

If you take a can of yellow paint and drop a speck of green into it, and mix that with another can of yellow that has had a speck of green mixed in, it will still look pretty pure. Now divide that bucket of paint into two cans again, drop a speck of green into each, and remix. Keep doing that same process over and over again, and pretty soon the mix will not even be yellow anymore. At some point someone's got to step in and say, "Quit mixing the paints!"

And there's no way to get that paint pure yellow anymore unless someone with the power and know-how comes in and removes all the green pigment.

Hopefully you understand my off-the-top-of-my-head illustration, where yellow = perfection and green = sin, and the person who removes the green pigment = God.

Nothing personal against the color green, BTW.

[walterick]

I love you Ray!

"No, not everyone inbred in ancient times, mind you."

Yes, but Adam and Eve had to inbred wth their sons and daughters in order to create the 22 (?) trillion people that are alive today. And then Noah, et al had to do it again so many years later. Hey, it's your Bible that says it, not me!

"Well, Rick, the truth is your opinion here finds no basis in the teachings of either Jesus or his apostles."

Okay, I'll leave it at that then.

But it sounds like something he would say LOL

"Who said anything about raising ourselves above others?"

By saying you're "holy" and others aren't. Hence the term, "holier than thou." As I said, which is an untruth because all are equally holy/loved by god...

... which, thanks for asking, is a concept I've formulated over the years through reading, listening, thinking, and feeling. If you wanna get an idea of what I know god to be, pick up this book: "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. You'll disagree with 98% of it, but it's 98% close to the god I believe in.

"We live holily because we have been made holy through faith in the Son of God."

I am working on a theory of psychology called "Holistic Psychology" which takes the concept of "holiness" and relates it to the concept of "holism" and explains how there is nothing you require to be "whole" (the root of both those words) because, as Kelly points out, we are made in the image and likeness of god, who is whole, holy and perfect. Therefore, so are we! We've only left to realize it, and stop acting like we are less than we actually are.

Thus, being "holy" means simply integrating all your parts, and acting as a "whole." Which requires nothing you don't already have That's my philosophy, anyway.

"Who is this "god" you speak of?"

Her name is Bertha, and she raises cattle on a farm in Arkansas

I referenced you to a book, that will give you an idea of what I know god is. Other than that, reading other spiritual books, listening to what people say about their god, listening to what MY HEART says about god, looking at the physical world as a reflection of god's spirit (particularly, that of nature) and just *knowing*. I realize that your Christian faith teaches you to distrust your innate knowing of things because you would come up with answers different than what your religion teachs you. But if you'd listen to the voice of god all around you, she's actually telling you something different than what you've been taught about her.

That's a scarey leap to take. I understand why many people don't take it.

BTW, I use the feminine pronoun to make a point. God is not an animal of course, so god doesn't have a gender.

One could say that the god I know reveals truth in every second of life, that every breath is full of the life and love that god makes. But then, I might be labeled a pagan for saying that.

"What are his other "truths" or principles, and how did you come to learn them?"

Other truths:
Love is all there is
We are all one

Those two alone will keep you up thinking for the rest of your days (believe me)
Others are:

We are all in the heart of god
God is all around
God is within
God is talking to us all the time; most people just aren't listening
We're bigger than we thought we were
Life isn't supposed to be hard
Life is not a school
Heaven is a place on earth
God doesn't judge (humans do)
We are all free
We are limited only by ourselves
There is enough.

That should keep you arguing with me for some time, eh? j/k

Now, for your real statement:
"Why would it matter how you play the game if in the end it doesn't really matter and we all return to the same state of being or whatever it is you believe?"

I say it matters how you play the game, meaning at the end that's what will matter to *you*. Of course, it desn't really matter after all is said and done. I just don't want you standing at the end, looking back and going "damn, I coulda done that different." But as soon as you step across the line to the "other side" it won't matter anymore...

"With that kind of logic, one may as well pursue whatever evil it is he/she desires in life,"

Why would you pursue evil when you can pursue love?

"even if it means aspiring to be a Hitler or Son of Sam or some other degenerate."

Yes, it's been done.

"I guess I could brutally murder the one closest to you so long as it makes me happy,"

Yes, you could, Ray, if that's what you felt is best. There's no one stopping you, it's your free will.

"We're ALL going home together. Yippee ay-yay! We've discovered the truth at last."

Ha! Now you've got it! You're on the right side of things now!

See, it's *you* who has to deal with your actions when it's all said and done. If you want to go murder me, go ahead. But then you've got to look back at what you've done and be happy about it. Like I said, are you happy with the choices you're making? Are they bringing you what you want? A lot of times we're acting out of hurt or anger and not even realizing it (I'm certainly guilty of that.) There's no God to Judge you when you die. What would that do, except make you so scared of living that you never really come alive?

Don't have premarital sex! (or fornicate, for all you "unwimpish" people out there)
You'll get a disease!

Don't be gay!
You'll get Gay Bowel Syndrome!

Don't believe in your heart!
You might get hurt!

Don't think for yourself!
Do as the Bible says!

Don't disobey God!
He'll punish you!

Don't sin!
You'll go to hell!

All these messages we receive almost daily only serve to
SCARE THE LIVING SH*T OUT OF US
And make us so scared to live that we fall obediently into line, and say out loud, in chorus:
HOW HIGH?!

I don't know a god that does that. I don't imagine in their hearts that most other folks do either.

But that's just me speculating After all, what do I know? I'm just a sinning pagan with a nasty predisposition towards fornication ;) LOLOL

"Uh-oh. Now I'VE gone and done it."

No, not yet, But you're doing well

** disclaimer ** That which you've just read are my beliefs. Nothing more, nothing less. At the most, they might make you think. At the least, they might make you cry. At least, maybe, you won't take them too seriously ***

Over and out amigo,have a good day.

Rick

[DownByFive]

I am working on a theory of psychology called "Holistic Psychology" which takes the concept of "holiness" and relates it to the concept of "holism" and explains how there is nothing you require to be "whole" (the root of both those words) because, as Kelly points out, we are made in the image and likeness of god, who is whole, holy and perfect. Therefore, so are we! We've only left to realize it, and stop acting like we are less than we actually are.

I tried to stay out of this, but what the heck...

Actually, since we are only made in God's image, we are inherently imperfect. The Bible never says that man is/was perfect, just that what God created was "very good." If we define God as being perfect, we understand that He (yes, I'm using the masculine pronoun...sue me) is lacking in nothing. Notice here that God does "lack" bad qualities, but bad qualities are not qualities in and of themselves, they are merely deficiencies of good qualities. Therefore, there can only be one God, since if there were more than one, they would have to have certain qualities that the other lacked. So we cannot be perfect, and we cannot make ourselves perfect, since something that is imperfect cannot possibly become perfect. And remember that an image is only a representation of the original. Photographs do not possess most of the qualities of their subjects (nor can they aquire them), and we do not possess most of the qualities of God (nor can we acquire them). We are created in God's image in the sense that we are spiritual beings, and we have the power of logic, reason, and rational thought. Okay, that's my Biblical philosophy lesson for the day...

[walterick]

Hey, there's always room for one more...

If god is perfect, could he have possibly created something that was imperfect?

The Bible (correct me if I'm wrong, I'm the nonChristian here) says that God made a couple of mistakes:
1.) He created angels capable of becoming demons
2.) He created humans capable of disobeying him
3.) He seems very upset by all of this and variably sends locusts and frogs to punish us

To say that things aren't going according to god's plan is to say that his creation went awry. If He truly is all-powerful, why the mess? Why the anger? Why the Commandments on how to behave if this world was created by a perfect being?

I say that god created us inthe image and likeness of His (for the sake of argument) self, meaning we are creators just like Him. He intended for us to have choice, and would not be so neurotic as to give us freedom and the power to create at will, and then go, a few thousand years later, "Oh! I forgot! There's these rules about what you should be doing!" And carve them in stone and create mass confusion with this mixed message of "freedom, but..." I think we're free, period.

If god's will is all powerful, then we must obey it. If we must do god's will, then we must be doing god's will right now! Which means that god simply wills for us to be free, and to create freely, no ifs ands or buts about it.

But that's just my take on things.

I think we're perfect because god is perfect, and perfect things can't do imperfect things.

Therefore we are made in the image and likeness of our creator.

Thanks for the response!

Rick

[schrackman]

Hi Rick,

Sorry it’s taken me so long to reply but we’ve had quite a FULL week this week, and I just haven't had any time to write you back. Anyhow, here ya go...enjoy.

Yes, but Adam and Eve had to inbred with their sons and daughters in order to create the 22 (?) trillion people that are alive today. And then Noah, et al had to do it again so many years later. Hey, it's your Bible that says it, not me!

Actually, Adam and Eve did not inbreed. But they had sons and daughters who did marry each other and have children. What other way was there to propogate the human race? But really I don’t think you have a problem with the idea that people inbred (for if you hold to any kind of evolutionary teaching, then what will you do with the fact that animals inbreed as well?), the problem I think you have is actually with God prohibiting inbreeding when he gave the law to the Israelites. You don’t like divine rules, and in this one you seek to find some sort of contradiction in God that you hope would somehow make God appear as being inconsistent with how he deals with the human race.

By saying you're "holy" and others aren't. Hence the term, "holier than thou." As I said, which is an untruth because all are equally holy/loved by god...

This is a non-sequitur. The word “holier” is in the comparative form. How can we, as Christians, be “holier” than those whom our God states has no holiness? They can’t, simply because there is no holiness in unbelievers that they can compare themselves to. So the Christian doctrine isn’t an issue about Christians vaunting themselves to be “better” or holier than the unbelieving. It is about being sanctified or set apart by the blood of Christ for a specific purpose, and that purpose is to forsake our sins and idols to serve the true and living God in holiness and righteousness.

... which, thanks for asking, is a concept I've formulated over the years through reading, listening, thinking, and feeling. If you wanna get an idea of what I know god to be, pick up this book: "Conversations with God" by Neale Donald Walsch. You'll disagree with 98% of it, but it's 98% close to the god I believe in.

Yes, I’m aware to some degree of what he teaches. But if according to him nothing matters, then why act as if it does? I mean, what is the sense of whether or not you’re happy when, in the end, it won’t matter anyway? But I suppose till Mr. Walsch himself gets to the end he’s gotta make a buck somehow. Might as well create a new religion and fleece a few people along the way. That can make certain types of people VERY happy. The Bible calls it being “greedy of filthy lucre.”

I am working on a theory of psychology called "Holistic Psychology" which takes the concept of "holiness" and relates it to the concept of "holism" and explains how there is nothing you require to be "whole" (the root of both those words) because, as Kelly points out, we are made in the image and likeness of god, who is whole, holy and perfect. Therefore, so are we! We've only left to realize it, and stop acting like we are less than we actually are.

Apart from the fact that your concept does not apply to the actual meaning of either the Hebrew or Greek words for “holy” (qadosh and hagios, respectively) you conveniently left out the idea of sin, which has corrupted the image of God and has left man broken and alienated from God. But of course, your theology doesn’t allow for sin because, after all, we’re already perfect and we just need to realize it. Hear that Adolf Hitler and Saddam Hussein?? The USA crapped all over you for no good reason!

I referenced you to a book, that will give you an idea of what I know god is. Other than that, reading other spiritual books, listening to what people say about their god, listening to what MY HEART says about god, looking at the physical world as a reflection of god's spirit (particularly, that of nature) and just *knowing*. I realize that your Christian faith teaches you to distrust your innate knowing of things because you would come up with answers different than what your religion teachs you. But if you'd listen to the voice of god all around you, she's actually telling you something different than what you've been taught about her.

That's a scarey leap to take. I understand why many people don't take it.

Yes, I am scared just reading about your “god”, who requires no accounting for wrongdoing because in “her” realm there is none. Frankly, I think this “god” is just the by-product of the hippie days. No consequences whatsoever, if you don’t want them. A very convenient god indeed.

Other truths: Love is all there is. We are all one

Those two alone will keep you up thinking for the rest of your days (believe me)
Others are:

We are all in the heart of god. God is all around. God is within. God is talking to us all the time; most people just aren't listening. We're bigger than we thought we were. Life isn't supposed to be hard. Life is not a school. Heaven is a place on earth. God doesn't judge (humans do). We are all free. We are limited only by ourselves. There is enough. That should keep you arguing with me for some time, eh?

Not really. Sounds very humanistic. It only appeals to those who want a god of convenience, as I stated above.

Now, for your real statement: I say it matters how you play the game, meaning at the end that's what will matter to *you*. Of course, it desn't really matter after all is said and done. I just don't want you standing at the end, looking back and going "damn, I coulda done that different." But as soon as you step across the line to the "other side" it won't matter anymore...

That’s not religion, that’s narcisism.

"With that kind of logic, one may as well pursue whatever evil it is he/she desires in life,"

Why would you pursue evil when you can pursue love?

Because in your realm, IT DOESN’T MATTER what one pursues, so long as it makes him happy. Some people are very happy pursuing and committing evil. Unfortunately, that makes other people very unhappy. So in reality, your religion does nothing to attempt to correct any imbalance in this world, it does nothing to change this world for the better. What good one man pursues is offset by the man who pursues evil. Genuine Christianity, on the other hand, does change people for the better. Therefore, it is superior to your religion.

Yes, it's been done.

And your religion would compell its followers do nothing to stop a Hitler because, after all, Hitler just may have been happy to do what he did. That’s being purely irresponsible to the rest of humanity, don’t you think?

"I guess I could brutally murder the one closest to you so long as it makes me happy,"

Yes, you could, Ray, if that's what you felt is best. There's no one stopping you, it's your free will.

Ah, but there is someone who tries to stop me. It’s called the law. It seems society in genereal is a bit wiser and responsible than your god.

See, it's *you* who has to deal with your actions when it's all said and done. If you want to go murder me, go ahead. But then you've got to look back at what you've done and be happy about it. Like I said, are you happy with the choices you're making? Are they bringing you what you want? A lot of times we're acting out of hurt or anger and not even realizing it (I'm certainly guilty of that.) There's no God to Judge you when you die. What would that do, except make you so scared of living that you never really come alive?

Again, there are plenty of people who are more than happy to commit evil every day. Your religion would only justify them in continuing to commit evil.

As for being scared of living on account of the concept of being judged, this is false. Our society judges people every day for breaking the laws, yet I seriously doubt you are cowering in the corner because of it. That’s because you are (and I am assuming this) you are a law-abiding citizen. Your conscience is clear. Therefore, you can live every day without fear. The same is true with God. Live within his laws and you can enjoy live. Live contrary to them, and you have reason to fear his judgment.

Don't have premarital sex! (or fornicate, for all you "unwimpish" people out there) You'll get a disease!

That’s not all you can get. Let’s not forget all the fatherless children out there too. Or the broken hearts, or the jealous rages of an ex-lover, or the humiliation of being used, of the friendships broken, or the loss of self-respect. There are all kinds of negative consequences to this type of behavior, but of course your kind of religion doesn’t want to think about consequences, which demonstrates just how irresponsible a religion it really is.

Don't be gay! You'll get Gay Bowel Syndrome!

Or HIV/AIDS, among all the other STDs out there, or other medical complications due to engaging in behavior that is not natural.

Don't believe in your heart! You might get hurt!

Depends on the “belief” that you believe in. Believe in the wrong thing and you will get hurt.

Don't think for yourself! Do as the Bible says!

Actually, quite the contrary is true. It is YOUR religion that does not want people to think. You don’t want them thinking about consequences, or being responsible either to themselves or the rest of humanity. Your religion teaches a person to think only about one thing: to do what makes one happy, regardless of what harm it may bring to themselves or others. At LEAST the Bible makes people responsible and accountable for their actions, and to think of others more so than themselves, which is a far more beneficial thing than what your religion has to offer.

Don't disobey God! He'll punish you!

So will the laws of our land. What’s your point?

Don't sin! You'll go to hell!

No, reject Christ to save you from your sins you’ll go to hell. If you’re going to reference the Bible, at least do it accurately.

All these messages we receive almost daily only serve to SCARE THE LIVING SH*T OUT OF US And make us so scared to live that we fall obediently into line, and say out loud, in chorus: HOW HIGH?!

Again, our society does the exact same thing, not to scare us but to keep order, to protect its citizens, and to provide a peaceful, happy, and productive environment for its people, and punish those who would disrupt that. God wants the same thing. And it’s a shame you’ve resorted to demonizing God rather than attempt to appreciate what he’s done to provide all those things, including eternal life. But I suppose that is what happens when you adopt a principle that looks only to promote your own self love, of which one of our founding fathers, Thomas Jefferson, said would be the ruin of this nation.

You have a great day too, Rick.

[Michael Fanelli]

But really I don’t think you have a problem with the idea that people inbred (for if you hold to any kind of evolutionary teaching, then what will you do with the fact that animals inbreed as well?),

Uh... Just look at all the genetic problems of purebred dogs. Look at the genetic problems of small isolated cultures. Inbreeding does indeed weaken the genetic pool. In the wild, animals (mostly male) do indeed move outside of their communities to breed.

[schrackman]

Hi Michael,

Uh... Just look at all the genetic problems of purebred dogs. Look at the genetic problems of small isolated cultures. Inbreeding does indeed weaken the genetic pool. In the wild, animals (mostly male) do indeed move outside of their communities to breed.

Then it's a good thing God prohibited inbreeding for the Israelites when he did, correct? Seems to me that would have prevented many genetic problems for generations to come. So it sounds like God was watching out for those Hebrews in giving them the commandment not to have close relations as did those who dwelt in Egypt and Canaan. But shhhhh....don't tell my friend Rick that. ;)

[Dzerzhinski46]

I referenced you to a book, that will give you an idea of what I know god is. Other than that, reading other spiritual books, listening to what people say about their god, listening to what MY HEART says about god, looking at the physical world as a reflection of god's spirit (particularly, that of nature) and just *knowing*. I realize that your Christian faith teaches you to distrust your innate knowing of things because you would come up with answers different than what your religion teachs you. But if you'd listen to the voice of god all around you, she's actually telling you something different than what you've been taught about her.

That's a scarey leap to take. I understand why many people don't take it.

It is interesting you should mention inner feelings and your heart. In the Psalms it says, "the heavens declare the glory of God...", this follows since nature is created by God, and how can someone make something without leaving their fingerprints all over it? A caveat to this is also in Romans, "For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse..." . It seems that God has revealed Himself ( Itself doesn't seem to suffice as a personal pronoun ) in His creation and in their hearts of men as well. Pascal put it very well when he called this knowledge of God, "the God shaped vacuum". No one is ignorant of God. We do not listen to God's voice because we are sinful and wish to listen to only our own voices, we separate ourselves from God voluntarily. When Adam and Eve sinned, it was extremely simple. They had free will, and they chose to not obey God's commands. They ate from the forbidden tree, by their own choice, obeying their own will, even when they knew it was wrong. Don't take this as an attack, just an explination of my faith . Thanks for talking and listening.

Dzerzhinski

[megan]

Actually if you read the story, there was more than just Noah and his wife onboard. There was his sons, and their wives and children, and their wives and children. Yes there was proably inbreading which could explain how frail our bodies are today.

Actually, I think that's probably more due to too much McDonald's, couch surfing, processed food, stress, pollution, etc. IMHO!


Megan

[Trevor Ash]

I'm not religious, and I don't believe in god, in any form. I believe there is nothing after death. But I do find it amazing the good things that religion can do for humanity......I'd hate to ponder what the world would be like without it. So good for him. From reading the article, he needed some salvation from a downward spiraling life. Personally, I'm always waiting for the day where something drastic changes my mind about things.....it'd be soooo much easier believing that there was something after death.

[Liz]

Trevor,

Thanks for sharing your beliefs. It is refreshing to find someone who sees the good religion does for people, even though you don't personally believe in God.

I'm always waiting for the day where something drastic changes my mind about things.....it'd be soooo much easier believing that there was something after death.[/

I hope you find that day. And I'll say a prayer you do.

Liz