Event photography

[kurobox]

Hi everyone,

Something happened to me today that is so disturbing... I just had to create an account, sign in, and write this thread... hopefully to get some feedback.

Last fall we started training our dog to learn flyball with a group that competes in flyball tournaments. In case you don't know what flyball is, it is a high-speed relay-race for dogs. Last weekend our trainer informed us that this weekend there'd be a tournament, one in which they had entered a team. I love photography, and I really enjoying finding interesting new ways to practice and learn more things about photography. So when he told us about this tournament, I knew it would be an amazing venue to do some practising: indoors, no flash permitted, high-speed, sporting event. There was no doubt I wanted to attend.

I got to the event early this morning, walked around (to find a good vantage point), took out my camera, and started snapping some shots. After a while some stranger comes up to me and starts asking all these strange questions like 'why was I taking pictures' and 'who do I work for'. He kept saying 'what are you going to do with these pictures' and was kinda half-threatening to throw me out, like I wasn't welcome (even though the event was open to the public and admission was free). I kept trying to tell him that I was a dog-owner who had come to cheer on our team, and was taking some pictures. I told his I was an amateur hobbyist, that I have a personal collection of thousands of pictures spanning many types of events, and that these pictures were just going to be added to that collection. He finally said: "Well, since you're not charging for your photographs then you won't mind giving me a copy of all your pictures".

He finally introduces himself as the event organizer, and to make a long story short, one of the groups who had paid for a booth at the show was a "professional" photographer and they didn't like the fact that I had an SLR camera with a large lens on it. I'd like to point out that the hall was *FULL* of people with cameras who were taking pictures all day long. I personally was singled out and told that I can either leave, or provide the event with a copy of all my pictures.

Is this normal? Should I get used to it? Since I spent more than $500 on a camera and lens, should I expect to be harassed anytime I'm at an event where a "professional" photographer is working? Should I not be surprised if next year cameras are banned from this event?

I know this website has a lot of fellow hobbyist as well as professionals. Anyone care to give their opinion on this?

[Trevor Ash]

Ugh. I hate reading these stories and am sorry you went through it.

My opinion is as follows:
1. I don't blame them for asking the purpose of the photos. Hopefully you were polite. I think you know the reasons why they asked.
2. The pro photog may have had a contract with the event saying that he'd be the only one covering it and that no one else should be covering it.
3. The event organizer may have been lying if he suggested the pro photographer was the one complaining.
4. The event organizer may NOT have been lying if he suggested the pro photographer was the one complaining.
5. Asking for a copy of all your photos is rediculous and rude.....and that was the a$$hole part of your story which also leads me to think that he was lying about the pro photog.
6. The event organizer probably has the right to ask you to stop taking photos. Don't piss him off.

This frequency of these kinds of stories seems to be increasing. It sounds like you were treated rudely and unfairly but I imagine they'd tell me a different story (I believe everything you said, they would just see things differently than you).

This isn't just about event photography either. It happens everywhere. Heck, since 911 try taking a photo of a popular bridge and see if homeland security snags you.

And you're right, the size of the camera and lens seems to make ALL the difference in determining if you're a "PRO" or not. Most people think that pro gear is all that's needed to take pro quality pictures. And if you have pro looking gear you're a pro.

If the pro photographer covering the event truly said any of those things or requested that you leave then I imagine it's because he didn't feel confident enough in his own work or was threatened by you for some other reasons. Chances are, his work stinks and he's had problems in the past with the "amateurs" producing better woek than him.

Your story is definetely a "problem" that all photographers have to deal with at one point or another.

Disclaimer: replace "he" with "she" as necessary

[PhotoGimp]

WOW, talk about anal.

[Janie]

You do need a release from owners of dogs to take a dogs picture if used for commercial purposes and venues have the right to deny cameras into an event but it must be clearly stated (know that one from rock clubs and the dog part my friend who is a judge at AKC told me about the release). Pets are considered personal property, hence the property release. But no, if cameras were allowed in and others were taking pictures, then you should not give him copies of your photos and you can tell him that since you do not have releases from the owners of the dogs, they are not to be used for commercial purposes and you cannot give him copies. ;-)

[Ryguyinlj]

Wow. That story pissed me off. I know that if it was me there I might have reacted a little differently... a little less reserved; a bad way. You handled yourself really well. I would have lost my patience with this guy the moment he asked for all of my photographs. What nerve! I probably would have told him that the "pro photographer" could come and talk to me personally if he had a problem with me or my camera.

Oh, and trevor made some really good points. It's quite possible that the pro photographer might have felt threatened by you. I will remember this example for future reference.

[Axle]

if cameras were allowed in and others were taking pictures, then you should not give him copies of your photos and you can tell him that since you do not have releases from the owners of the dogs, they are not to be used for commercial purposes and you cannot give him copies. ;-)

Yeah, I'm with Janie on this one. Other people were taking pictures also with their little point and shoots, and you have a SLR with a huge lens. Chances are good that it was the professional complaining. Everyday people (well except for us nuts) don't bring slrs and telephotos, this could be why you were singled out. Hey, it happens to me, I was shooting at a car race and was asked what newspaper I was from. Even when I do photoshoots around my home town I'm asked what magazine is from. But I've never been asked to turn over my photos. I did once, after car race, since a friend of my dad was racing and so was his daughter, so I gifted the double set to them.

Welcome to the forums!

[another view]

Welcome - It's one of those situations that can happen from time to time. The photog that they hired would have been a little threatened if he was counting on print sales. A big camera and lens makes you stand out. Seeing that and you walking around the room looking for a place to get a good shot (as opposed to someone sitting in their seat taking whatever shots they can get from there) probably equated to lost print sales for him. Personally, I'd rather work for an hourly rate and give a copy of all files to the person that hired me - and not do print sales (hourly rate based on this fact, of course). That way the 100 other cameras at the event aren't potential competition for me - speculation on my part of what the arrangement was though.

The event people could put a camera restriction into place, but then they'd have to hire security to enforce it. Even then, how many little point and shoot flashes do you see go off at a rock concert with a camera restriction and security to enforce it?!

The organizer has the right to ask you for a free copy of all of your pictures, just as you have the right to tell him how you feel. This person is obviously up to something and/or has something to hide. Confrontation in a situation like this isn't going to benefit anyone. I certainly wouldn't have supplied all of my shots to a person as condecending as that.

[Photo-John]

The organizer has the right to ask you for a free copy of all of your pictures, just as you have the right to tell him how you feel.

And you have the right to tell him no.

There have been plenty of similar horror stories posted here. I think it was adina who had a problem shooting one of her kids dance recitals. People are generally greedy and rude, and love to throw around any little bit of authority they might have. Be polite, don't give them a thing, and ask to speak to the boss. Tell them you were going to give them some free exposure. If they don't like any of that, take your camera, leave, and talk about it here. Spread the word about how they treated you. You deserve better.

Some things I've learned about event photography:

A lot of the time a photographer will pay for the "retail rights" for a photo event. This means they've paid a fee in order to be able to shoot and sell prints to participants. The "retail rights" agreement protects the photographer selling prints. It's a reasonable arrangement. This is prettty common at mountain bike races. Press photographers are allowed to shoot whatever they want. They just aren't supposed to sell prints to the event participants. They are allowed to sell to publications and to manufacturers for advertising. Some venues allow only some types of cameras. I've heard of lens length restrictions. But they should have told you about ay special camera rules before you entered. And you definitely don't have to give them your photos. You might not be allowed to sell them. But they're still your photos.

[efjeld]

The same thing happened to me last year at Summerfest.

I was about 15-20 rows back, about 75% of the people around me had some sort of P&S camera shooting all kinds of pictures. So, I get out my SLR and start taking some pictures and security singles me out saying "You're going to have to put that away." I asked about everyone else with camera's and he just says, "Well, you've got a professional 'attachment' on your camera." I'm thinking, sheesh... I'm far from professional in the world or photography.

No prohibitions to camera's on the tickets or at the entrance. Oh well. It's amazing how people get nervous when you get out a "big" camera, but when you shoot away with a little tiny P&S and you're fine.

[drg]

I read this over lunch today and have thought about this and will try and keep it brief.

I'll start with one of your last questions first. It is already starting to happen that cameras are being banned from a lot of events. Professional Golf went as far this past year to even ban cell phones up to and including searching people and confiscation. Huge signs are being posted at some events that include that dreaded phrase NO CAMERAS ALLOWED!

There are all kinds of little loopholes about what is public property and what is private by extension. If I lease a public facility for a private use, then its not public for the duration of that lease in most cases. I can restrict or control admission and impose rules on that admission with minimal description other than offer to provide a copy of all the expectations of those admitted. Simply, you can come in, but I can tell you what to do.

The term "professional attachment" means that probably a state statute or law was in play as a result of the terms of admission. This has been inserted in many cases to help control non-press photographers and to defend copyrights, performance rights, and even such things as makeup design is now protected(actually has been for a long time).

Many of the people at these dog events are there to make money. You win a major tournament series, you can sell appearances and make a pretty decent living I've been told.

There are lots of places you may not think about, but it is illegal to photograph such as shopping malls (Really, every state I've every checked has an applicable statute), grocery stores are posting signs at the front doors in many locations about the use of ANY recording device, and the list goes on.

I've literally had situations where I handed a brick of film to security or an escort, walked to where I was hired to shoot, was given the film, shot, handed all the film back to the escort when done, and then retrieved it when it was appropriate.

In some cases ALL RIGHTS TO IMAGERY are retained by the provider. Read the back of you Major Leagure Sports ticket. Some of it is legally phrased but its there. If you even capture a photo that no one else gets, you'll need permission to publish or sell it.

This is a super hot topic right now.

On the other hand, if you don't work as a photographer, how would you like for me to wander through your workplace unattended with a Canon 1d with a battery pack/vertical grip, some mondo L zoom, a MecaBlitz and a battery pack on my waist, getting on and off desks and chairs trying to capture some photo for some reason that I wasn't willing to explain? How would you like someone with a camera (even another parent that you didn't know) wandering through the daycare with a camera?

There a lot more to this than just "I want to take pictures."

I'm sorry though you ran into a seemingly inarticulate and suspicious person who probably ruined your day.

I can elaborate more on this if you would like to know more about some of this. By the way, the AKC (if that was who sanctioned your event) are notorious about who does and doesn't get to take photos and with good reason. I've got a couple of great stories about professional videography, but thats for another time.

Don't let some of these people dampen your enthusiasm, just ask questions and even seek a "stock" credential if necessary.

Good luck and Best wishes-CDP Dr G

[Marka]

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