what do I need to take night football shots?

[JETA]

My apologies if I sound like I don't know what I'm doing. That's a pretty fair accessment. ;)

My camera is a cannon rebel eos and the lens I used for night football shots is a Tamron Zoom Wide Angle-Telephoto AF 28-300mm f/3.5-6.3 XR Di LD Aspherical IF Macro Autofocus Lens & no flash. I used the TV setting and iso of 800 to 1600. The pics were too dark and I had problems with smearing when I tried other settings.

I am such a novice it isn't even funny, but I have all these people who love my sports photography I've done for baseball and football in the community I live in. The thing is my great shots are in broad daylight.

I really like to have a zoom of 300MM for football. It's awesome to get right in under the players noses. I've been looking at lenses at B&H and I'm pretty confused.

Can someone help me with some advice? I'd really like to get the pics our high school wants me to get at night games. It is an extremely well lit stadium.

Thanks so much to anyone who is willing to help me!

[berrywise]

The reason you are getting dark images is because your camera is not getting enough light (sounds to simple doesn't it). The aperature of your lens does not open wide enough to allow it to let enough light into the camera while still maintaining a fast enough shutter speed to keep the players from becoming blurry.

Shooting night football means having "fast" glass. Fast meaning they have large apertures such as an f2.8 lens. Problem is they are not cheap. The other option is using a flash (or both flash and good lens) but flashes can only throw the light so far out onto the field so you are limited to when the action comes closer to you.

Sadly the answer to your question is that you are most likely going to need to invest some money to get the best results.

I always find that I get my best high school football shots early in the year when the days are longer. Usually if a game starts around seven you still have some existing light that allows you to get better images.

Night sports (especially football) are one of the hardest things to shoot in my mind.

[JETA]

Berrywise, I cannot thank you ENOUGH for responding. It's very kind of you.

Oh boy.... Hardest to shoot. Figures. lol

Another thing I worry about with a flash is being right in a players face and blinding them.

Can I ask you what lens you would recommend? Specifications I'd need?

This is the one I found. It is confusing to me. You are always shooting at 300mm? I could cry over the price.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=183202&is=USA

Does anyone know much how well the image stabliaztion works? I would have to think with this being a 6 pound lens that even with my monopod I'd be moving the camera around like mad.

[opus]

Yeah, that lens you linked to is on my dream list. The price is killer but ohh, do I drool over it.

I have the same setup as you and find the same limitations. I would suggest you do not use flash; it is mostly useless and could affect play, as you say.

I've dialed up to 1600 iso when I took nighttime football. The color was rather ugly and the grain was evident, but I think if your composition is good enough those things are more forgivable, provided your post-processing skills are decent.

My recommendation: shoot RAW. At the game, work towards getting the most usable shots compositionally and without blur, then in the post processing you can mess with exposure, white balance and color.

I have an IS lens (75-400 f4.0) and I really like the IS. It adds just a HAIR of time to the focus and click, but generally hasn't posed a problem for me. The added time is just a fraction of a second and probably wouldn't ruin anything but an incredibly high-speed shot (like a bullet).

[berrywise]

That's the lens the pros are using. Well actually many of them shoot with even bigger lenses like 400mm f2.8.

If you watch a pro football game you'll see many of the photographers will have a 300 or 400 f2.8 mounted on a monopod and then a 70-200 2.8 mounted on another body slug around their neck for when the action gets to close up to them.

You might start with a 70-200 2.8 and work on honing your skills shooting with that first. Still you are looking at a nice healthy investment even with that. I've never been a big fan of shooting with flash because I think it destroys some of the natural characteristics of the image. You might not be able to afford the lenses though to shoot without it so I wouldn't count it out. Don't worry about the players. I've talked to numerous players (especially in Baskebtall) and they never even notice the strobe. They have bigger things on their mind like avoiding tackles!

[swmdrayfan]

I'm in agreement with everyone else here. I'm using a 300mm/f4-5.6 and at night it's pretty useless unless I shoot at the higher end of the ISO scale. I too, have a 2.8 on my wish list. Someday, someone will come up with a comparable lens that will solve the mysteries of digital noise at higher ends. Until that happens though, we're forced to go with what we have and hope for the best.

[JETA]

Thank you both!

So for sure I think I've narrowed it down to a cannon lens with IS with your help.

I know with the lens I'm using now, I use 300 mm maybe 25% of the time. Depending on if I have on field access or not.

I'm wondering if only having a 200mm would drive me nuts and maybe it would be an easy adjustment. I've used different lenses b4, but they all would max out at 300mm so I really have nothing to compare it to. Also the weight. One is 6 pounds the other 3.5. Should that be taken into consideration?

Berrywise, is this the 200mm lens you were referring to?

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...=234444&is=USA

On the above lens they say it is 70-200mm. I'm sorry to be so uneducated on all of this, but I'm not understanding what the minimum focus distance is in MM on the 300mm lens.

Could I shoot in jpeg with the 70-200mm & the 300mm lenses I posted?

So does anyone want to tell a complete stranger if they should buy the $4000 lens or the $1700 lens?

Thank you SO MUCH for the help!

[berrywise]

Jeta,

I have a similar lens to the one you posted. Mine does not have the Image Stabalization feature. I think that lens is still available for a few hundred dollars less. The 300mm lens is a nice lens but really I think you would find yourself using a 70-200 a whole lot more (not just for shooting sports).

If you find that photography is something you want to do for a living (or as a big hobby) and sports photography is a high interest of yours then I'd look into the 300.

[JETA]

Thank you very much.

I went ahead and ordered the 70-200 mm with IS. Now I've got to take a crash course in how to use it. My first game is on Friday. The lens will be here tomorrow.

I took some football pics on Saturday in broad daylight. I was anxious to play with the lens I have to see the difference between 200mm & 300mm. For what I'm doing I think the 70-200 was the right choice.

[berrywise]

Jeta,

You are going to be impressed with that lens when you get it. The view through your camera is going to be nice and bright and clear ;o)

Anyhow two quick tips for shooting football that I find help me. First switch the autofocus on your camera so that it isn't operated by the shutter button. Instead have it operated by your thumb on the back of the camera. You should be able to make this change in your custom settings, see your manual for that. This allows you to be focus on a subject faster so you are ready for the shot when it comes.

The second thing I would recommend is turning the autofocus so it focuses on the center focusing square in your camera's viewfinder. This way you can be selective as to what player or action you want to be focusing on.

If you are doing this for a yearbook or the newspaper you might think about doing a photostory to go along with the action shots. Could be a real nice portfolio piece for you. Think about telling a story with your photos. Getting into the lockeroom when the coach is addressing the players, during practise, maybe even center on one player on the team and follow him throughout an entire game day from getting up and eating breakfast to going home after the game.

That would be fun to see.

[JETA]

Thanks again Berrywise! Did I say thank you cuz I really mean it! THANK YOU!

I feel like such a fraud because I know so little about photography. I didn't even know I could change the autofocus. I'm going to go figure that out right now.

From what OT has said about his great shots I should be using the priority aperture setting?

This is kind of a photo story. I'm making DVD slideshows for our Varsity football team in the town I live in. I've done a few for youth football and a select baseball club.

With the baseball club I did two DVD's. The first one had no action shots. It was all photos of the voluteers and what they do to keep the ball club rolling. Pics of parents, friends and family cheering on the team and candids of the team showing the friendships they built.

The second DVD was all action. By the time the first DVD was over everyone had tears in their eyes. I started the action DVD next and it turned from tears to hooting and hollering.

So for the high school football team I'd like to do the same thing. This is a big hs and the varsity coach is getting me on field access for all the home games and getting permission for me to be on the field for the away games. I was stunned.

I love doing this, but this guy is my main reason. This is my son. He has a very VERY rough start in life and has come so far. He's an amazing boy & I'm very proud of him.

[Old Timer]

I think your lens choice is right on, affordable and versatile. I waited a long time before I made the plunge and got the 80-200 f2.8 and it was well worth it. That is one good looking son. I am looking forward to your action shots. Please post some as soon as you have them. Don't worry if they don't meet your expectations the first time out. With the help of photogs like Berrywise and some of the others here I am sure they soon will be. Remember to anticipate the action and be ready for the shot. IMHO it is much better to try for a shot and miss it than to just let the moment and the play go by. There will always be a ref step in front of you or another player cross in between you and the action, just don't get frustrated and keep firing away.

[JSPhoto]

JETA,

I shoot a lot of football and 95% is outdoors at night. My normal settings on my Cannon 1D are: ISO 800-1250 (depends on the stadium lighting and so on. Shutter speed of 160-400 and ALWAYS in M (manual mode). I use a Sigma 70-200 f2.8 lens. You must have a 2.8 lens to really get anything useable. I do use a flash as well, but it is mainly "fill flash" as I power it down to 1/4 or below depending on distance.

The two attached photos were from one of four games I shot this past Saturday for Midwest Sports Publishing ( http://www.highschoolsports1.com/ ) one was without flash as a Warren Central player tackles an East St Louis player following a catch. The other was shot with flash as an East St Louis player scores.

FYI - Warren Central won the game 70-50. It was part of the Jeff George Brest Cancer Awareness Gridiron Classic aka Warrior Gridiron Classic.

Photos (c) John Stark Midwest Sports Publishing 2005

[JSPhoto]

For those of you looking for an inexpensive 70-200mm f2.8 lens that WORKS, and at a great price (just over $600 when I bought mine) try: http://www.hotbuyselectronics.com/

I ordered the lens on a Sunday afternoon and by 9pm that night the tracking number showed UPS already had it. By Wednesday evening it was in my hands.

I had reservations buying from this place, even the name sounds hinky, but they delivered and on time.

The lens I bought was the Sigma 70-200mm f/2.8 EX APO HSM (lists at $649.00 right now). It has worked great for me for two years for all kinds of sports in all kinds of weather. It gets used almost daily for everything from newspaper to AP to magazine print. The later two are real picky about quality photos and I have never had a problem.

JS

[JETA]

Thank you so much John! Awesome photos! WOW!

Can I ask a totally stupid question to anyone who can answer? Here it goes. Do I need to worry about the aperture setting or is that taken care of automatically through the lens? Geez I hope that made sense.

Thank you for the exposure and iso numbers. I'm hoping that I don't have to go above 800 iso because if I move it up the next is 1600 iso.

My lens comes tomorrow. Heaven help me. This should be fun and FUNNY!

[JETA]

I think your lens choice is right on, affordable and versatile. I waited a long time before I made the plunge and got the 80-200 f2.8 and it was well worth it. That is one good looking son. I am looking forward to your action shots. Please post some as soon as you have them. Don't worry if they don't meet your expectations the first time out. With the help of photogs like Berrywise and some of the others here I am sure they soon will be. Remember to anticipate the action and be ready for the shot. IMHO it is much better to try for a shot and miss it than to just let the moment and the play go by. There will always be a ref step in front of you or another player cross in between you and the action, just don't get frustrated and keep firing away.

I swear this is the nicest board I've ever run across.

Thanks for the compliment on my son. He's one of three boys.

Your advice is fantastic because I'm so worried I'm just going to screw it all up my first time out. Of course the first game ( this Friday) is the biggest game of the season. It's the game against the two rival local high schools.

I have got quite a bit better at anticipating the action. Shooting baseball will do that to you. ;)

I will hopefully post some pics. There has to be a few that I'll be proud of.... right?

[Old Timer]

Thank you so much John! Awesome photos! WOW!

Can I ask a totally stupid question to anyone who can answer? Here it goes. Do I need to worry about the aperture setting or is that taken care of automatically through the lens? Geez I hope that made sense.

Thank you for the exposure and iso numbers. I'm hoping that I don't have to go above 800 iso because if I move it up the next is 1600 iso.

My lens comes tomorrow. Heaven help me. This should be fun and FUNNY!

The reason for gettin the f2.8 lens is so you have that extra amount of light. That is why I shot aperture priority I set it at f2.8 an I know that way the camera will be using the fast shutter speed that it can under the conditions. John shots manuel and I will in some cases. He is using flash and has learned how to balance everything for the situations he is shooting under. But he is assuring himself of having at least a minumum shutter speed that will do the job and the largest aperture available. If you allow the camera to set the shutter speed it could fall below the minimum you need to stop the action and you may not notice it until it is too late and you have missed that great shot you thought you had. I'm sure that he checks his setting often and adjust as conditions change.

[berrywise]

I'm with Old Timer on this one. For your first time out I would set your camera in aperature priority. Basically your camera is going to be setting your shutter speed for you. On many high school football fields you will have lights spots and you will have dark spots depending on the lighting at the field.

You will be best off to let your camera handle some of the exposure work while you work on composition. Use your "film" speed to make sure that you are getting a fast enough shutter speed. If the games starts early and their is a fair amount of light maybe you can shoot at 800 speed. Once the game continues and it gets darker you might need to bump up to 1600.

The hardest part is just learning to anticipate things. The top photographers are almost like opposing defenses. They can anticipate when the team is going to pass and when it is going to run.

I find one of the easiest places to shoot is from the end zone, obviously if they are in the middle of the field this might not work well enough cause you do not have teh zoom to handle it. Shooting from the end allows you to see the play develope in front of you and you are most certainly assured to get some shots of people running right at you

Just remember its a long season heh heh you'll have plenty of chances.

[JETA]

Thanks guys. Aperture priority it is.

Hopefully this will be my last goofy question. Do I need to do white balance at the field? I heard that some people do this with a gray card? I should probably post this stuff on the beginning photog board and do a search.

I've done a lot of posting on message boards with a small biz of mine. Making handmade soaps and bath and body products. More times then not when a new person comes on the scene and starts asking beginner questions right off the bat people ignore them or are pretty rude. Personally I think it's low, but I'm the minority on that.

You guys are awesome here. I almost never posted my questions because I was scared at how people would react.

Everyone here has been friendly and helpful..... It's really nice. I REALLY appreciate it.

[JSPhoto]

You can use a grey card, I just pick something white and try some different settings to see which one is closest to the white I am seeing and want. I also set the color temp as well, which changes under different lighting.
Orange is the worst color to get right, the pigment normally tends to come out red instead. The pictures I have below the East St Louis teams orange came out great, even I was amazed.

JS

[JETA]

Thanks JS. I have a lot to figure out b4 Friday night.

All I can say is thanks Berry for steering me towards the 70-200mm. My lens just came. If it weighed any more I'd be in deep doodoo. With my monopod this one will work nicely, but I detest using a monopod.

I'm also seeing why some lens are so expensive! WHOA, lotsa lotsa glass! This lens is amazing.

[JSPhoto]

I do not suggest using a mono pod, get used to the weight it will get comfortable over a few days and build some muscle
The weight will actually be better than you expect, and you will have better control of the camera shooting football - mono pods are worthless unless your using a 300 straight up or larger lens.

JS

[JETA]

I do not suggest using a mono pod, get used to the weight it will get comfortable over a few days and build some muscle
The weight will actually be better than you expect, and you will have better control of the camera shooting football - mono pods are worthless unless your using a 300 straight up or larger lens.

JS

Really? I'm happy to hear this. I've used the mono pod a few times and boy.... I didn't like it at all!

So will the IS take care of the extra movement I'll have from the weight?

[JSPhoto]

Really? I'm happy to hear this. I've used the mono pod a few times and boy.... I didn't like it at all!

So will the IS take care of the extra movement I'll have from the weight?

Actually, depending on what body you have the added weight is a good thing as it balances the camera/lens very well and makes shooting, and especially panning even easier. It takes a little getting used to the added weight. I got used to it in one night at the race track.
As for IS, depends on how much you shake.....I'm very steady so I don't need it most times.
JS

[Lionheart]

Really? I'm happy to hear this. I've used the mono pod a few times and boy.... I didn't like it at all!

So will the IS take care of the extra movement I'll have from the weight?

It should, up to three stops slower than the 1/focal length rule for hand held shooting according to the specs. You probably know the rule, but basically 1/200mm focal length = 1/200 sec minimum shutter speed, so with IS, theoretically, you can shoot 1/25 second hand held. I personally think that's a stretch with that heavy a zoom, but I have shot at that speed hand held indoors with acceptable results as long as the subject isn't moving ;) . And that of course is the big factor, subject movement-IS doesn't help you here if your shutter speed can't stop the action. Shoot at ISO 1600, even 3200 if you don't mind a lot of post processing later with a noise reduction program like Noise Ninja (worth every penny).