How about a little consideration....

[swmdrayfan]

for some of the people who take the time to post their photos for critique, and also take the time to view and comment on other peoples' work? Whatever happened to reciprocal feedback here?

Photo Critique Forum Guidelines
Please post no more than five images a day and respond to as many images as you post. Critics, please be constructive, specific, and nice! Moderated by mtbbrian
By posting on this message board you agree to post only your own photos, be respectful, and give back as much as you receive. This is a moderated forum and anything abusive or off-topic will be removed.

While I haven't viewed and commented on every photo here, I've done my share, and it would be nice to hear what you have to say about my work in return. There are others who do as I do, and never get anything back as well. It seems there are more than a few of you out there who like to pat each other on the back, while ignoring the rest of us. We are trying to learn too, and while we aren't expecting rave reviews, ANY comment is better than none. While I haven't been on this board as long as a lot of you, I think I'm entitled to the same consideration you give the newbies. In fact, there may be more like me who feel the same, and have just quit the boards rather than speak up. To quote a line from an old movie, "I'M MAD AS HELL, AND I'M NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE!"
Are you people so full of yourselves that you've forgotten what it's like to be starting out?
All I'm asking is for a little of your time and expertise for all of us who need it.

[dbutler]

I've felt as you have at times. I'm sorry your mad. Honestly, I never expect much feedback during the day. I expect folks are working and may not be able to respond as we would like. Also, like me, even if they are online, a boss walks in and they have to minimize the window until the boss goes away. Mine has been nagging at me all day so I've pecked here and there but I haven't had a chance to really go through everything as I would like.

Also, since I'm still so green, I like to have the pros go at it first and see if I agree with what they think. If they don't do it in a certain time period, I usually jump in to say something, and they usually come back with their own stuff. By the way, I'm usually the one who misses the big picture (pun may or may not be intended).

I've been to sites where folks really and truly are full of themselves. You post and instead of commenting, they leave you these horrible ratings, and you are confused and trying to guess at what you did wrong. The guys here are about as down to earth as I have ever seen an artist get. There really is an "artist temperament" but I've rarely ever seen it here.

So, don't be too harsh on them. Just give them time. I've posted pics and it's taken a day or two to get a response from someone in the past. I don't think I've ever had NO response at all, but even if I didn't I would have guessed that I just needed to post another (and I did!).

So, I'm sorry for not being more responsive. You say you're sorry for losing your temper and let's start again. Whaddaya say? ***Extending hand for a shake ***

[swmdrayfan]

D.....I don't have any problem with people being at work and such. I understand that completely. What bothers me, and I think a few others, is that after a certain amount of days, if not weeks, there is no response whatsoever, or maybe one or two comments. Look at all the views in relation to comments.....doesn't it take just a few seconds more when you have seen a picture, to jot down your thoughts on it? There are pictures, and I'm sure you'll experience it, where you'll have 127 views and maybe 1 person leaves a word of encouragement or suggestion. Yet if you look at the photos of certain other people, you'll see 127 views and 44 comments and suggestions. I just think it's way out of balance. I think that a person who gets a lot of comments, and doesn't respond in kind to those that aren't as well known on the forums, is looking down their nose, so to speak, at the less known photographer. We all want to hear feedback, no matter what type it is. I think that's why it's called the critique forum---not the' view and move on to someone you know ' forum.
I just felt it was time to vent a little..........I'm not angry at particular individuals, just frustrated that more of us aren't getting the help or guidance, or pats on the back if you will, that we need to grow as photographers. How are we going to know how to improve if someone just blows off our work? Thanks for responding....it's nice to know I have someone's attention. ;)

[dbutler]

Oh, honey, do you see how long I've been a member here? I'm just beginning to get some attention! Gary's a tough old bird! JUST KIDDING!!!

I think it's a rite of passage when it comes to forums. I moderate an infertility forum and I see it all the time there, and I spend time at several photography forums and it's tough there as well (that net place is just awful!). Sometimes I think they want to see just how serious you really are at first before you get completely taken under the wing. And it's a small community so they're all friends here. Just like any friendship, sometimes you have to work at getting in.

Don't give up and don't leave. Just give it time. And to be honest, I don't know if you want comments from someone who is nowhere close to understanding your vision.

Be like me: Annoying, nagging, and annoying. It's how I got attention.

[photophorous]

I understand your frustration. I've posted pictures as well as questions that no one responded too. Don't know if I've commented on any of yours, but I haven't been posting images lately either. I think there are lot of people who just look and read as a way to learn on their own. A lot of times I don't feel qualified to comment, so I don't. I don't want to mislead someone, when I don't know what I'm talking about. So, I usually only comment when I feel strongly about what I have to say. I think I learn more from other people's posts than from my own anyway.

All I can suggest is to keep at it, and eventually some people will catch on. There are lot of very generous and helpful people on this board, and lot of others who probably feel like I described above. Just keep doing your part and people will notice.

Nice to meet you, btw.

Paul

[swmdrayfan]

Come to the light, my children. ;)

I guess sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease after all. I don't comment on anything that someone else with far greater knowledge than I has, much like you Paul. There is still soooo much to learn. I get the 'oooohhhhs and ahhhhs' from friends and neighbors like everyone else, but the true test is hearing from someone outside your circle. You need to hear from an unbiased voice--that was the crux of this rant. Never having been the patient one, I do tend to get ahead of myself more often than not. But hey, if enough people see this, and take it in the right spirit, a lot of us will benefit. I already have, thanks to my new best buddy D... and a few others like yourself.

[CLKunst]

Swmdrayfan,

I would go further and suggest that a no comment is sometimes a critique in itself. I post plenty of images that get only one or two comments. I don't find it discouraging. This forum for me is about experimentation and putting things out for general consumption that I'm not sure about. A lack of response I gauge as being a nod toward mediocrity. It's not awful, it's not great, it has not been particularly distinguished itself from the others so I keep trying. To distinguish myself from the crowd is a deep goal of mine. So if something is not generating interest I go back to work on it until it does.

But if you want to generate more than just a pass ask more of a question than "what do you think?" Say "How can I improve this composition? Are these colors strong enough?", etc. Point us in the direction YOU want to take YOUR art.
Critique can also come from within. ;)

Regards,

[swmdrayfan]

Yeah Paul, that thought finally occurred to me, and I went back and edited the title by adding "your comments/thoughts?" Something I should have been doing all along. I'd venture to guess there are more people who think like you do....that no comment is a sign that the picture involved doesn't do enough to elicit a response either way. That, in itself, should inspire me to think a little more about what I want my work to say or show instead of just throwing it out there. I think it should inspire others too, who might be wondering why nobody says anything. You may be closer to the truth than I would have thought.

[CLKunst]

I also wanted to add that some pictures generate a spill of comments because they well represent a common thread of concern or issue surrounding them. These are often more than pat on the backs but earnest discussions between what is "right" and what is "preferred" in the composition or creation of a certain image. Hope that soothes your angst a little. I have certainly been known to snap off a time or two myself,(see my own little rant here - Guitar Hero) it's called being human.

Regards,

[swmdrayfan]

C.L. that's good to know. I know a little rant now and then can stimulate some genuine feedback...looks like I've done that. Done constructively, it may be good for the group ;) .
BTW, I checked out your site.....nice stuff there. I like the guitars too.

[jar_e]

Swmdrayfan,

Let me tell you how I feel about the subject. I've been here for quite a while (2200+ posts) and a large portion (>55%) is into the photo critique forum. People prefer to critique others, as it slowly becomes a mutual thing. That being said, I'll post something and get no reviews for 24 hours. It's hard to set trends in here. I recently didn't post for a few months, and lost intrest. Beyond all this babbling, it's tough. Unfortunately, that's life. I personally try to get to the majority of posts, unless it has 5+ replies, as then things become reptitive.

I hope I helped,

Jared

[mtbbrian]

I certainly understand your frustration as well.
It takes time to build up a relationship with such a diverse community as we have here.
I would suggest that you continue to post your photographs and to comment on others.
Even some of my stuff goes with out getting comments.
Please give it time.
I got your PM by the way, I hope that this will work as a response to you.
Brian

[swmdrayfan]

This is working out very nicely, and I'm wondering why I didn't do this before. I wondered how everyone would take it, but you've all been really understanding. In turn, I've gained some new understanding myself.

[Herriot]

Gained some new understanding plus quite a lot of responses to your post!!!! I think it is good to see this kind of discussion in the forum from time to time to review the current state of play.

I agree about the comments where no responses isn't necessarily a bad thing. I remember w hile back commenting on a stunning portrait by FotoWilelm and asked a similar question as nobody had commented on it and the response I received was "We are not worthy to comment!!!!!" The forum is an area for discussion and general sharing, sometimes I think it is ok for it to be a one way line of communication.

Just don't be disheartened, this is the friendliest forum I have ever come across and that's why I am proud to be involved with it, just keep on posting!!

Herriot

[LeeIs]

Swmdrayfan,

I would go further and suggest that a no comment is sometimes a critique in itself. I post plenty of images that get only one or two comments. I don't find it discouraging. This forum for me is about experimentation and putting things out for general consumption that I'm not sure about. A lack of response I gauge as being a nod toward mediocrity. It's not awful, it's not great, it has not been particularly distinguished itself from the others so I keep trying. To distinguish myself from the crowd is a deep goal of mine. So if something is not generating interest I go back to work on it until it does.

Well said, and exactly my sentiment.

Swmdrayfan,
I've also had shots where I got 1 or 2 replies if that much. Here and on other sites that I use to frequent. It tells me that that particular shot just doesn't move or do anything for anybody. No big deal. I move on and post another. I personally think that another reason for that is that most people here are geniunely nice. So instead of ripping into that particular shots they just move on and I appreciate that! There are other forums out there in which that shot would've gathered reponses like "blah" "that sucks", "not good enough", etc. We have it nice here if anything.

Don't let that discourage you be annoying and nagging like D! jk

[CLKunst]

Just want to put in that I am really enjoying the air of this thread. I think it is a really good thing to hash it out every once and a while. There are a lot of assumptions you are forced to make about people you would probably not link up with any other way. It is purely representation through our art that we are known to each other. That can be a very powerful but remote way of knowing people. It means you look forward to seeing progress on this or that series that someone is working on, etc. but since you are unfamiliar with their particular perspective on the world you make guesses about the true people themselves by their screen names and avatars, a very blind prospect indeed. It is the realest form of critique, since these assumptions about an artists intent could be drawn almost as easily from a biography photo and artist statement at a "live" exhibition. This is very much like being able to eavesdrop on what a gallery viewer whispers when they see your work, except hopefully, with guidance or honest impression. Anyway thanks for breaking the ice and glad to hear what everyone is thinking.

P.S. Swmdrayfan - Thank you for your kind words about the guitars and my website. Music and photography are a united passion for me.

[jar_e]

On another note, a largre portion of replies are also based on what has been previously posted. Sorry to pick an individual incident, but swmdrayfan, alot of your pics have been recieving the same critique. I know there is a 5 picture limit, but people usually are quite a ways under that, and when people are noticing the same critique, they may no longer view pictures by you. Alot of pictures that some senior members may consider "noob" pics, may not comment on them at all; unfortunately, I'll admit to being guilty of that too.

Not to be confrontational, but it's hard to meet everybody's "standard", and by far, this is one of the most supportive (though not necessairly the best thing) I've been a part of.

Jared

[GB1]

Yeah, it's difficult for me.. I sometimes feel that A) it is a good shot but B) I have seen similar shots so many times that it diminishes the value of it. I have never gotten used to saying "It's nice, but been done 1000 times already." To do that I would feel like a movie critic that hates all the movies I like cause he goes to ever one (and that's a LOT of movies) and does indeed see the same plots and stories recycled, whereas I don't cause I don't go to the movies that often!

So what does all this mean? It means that about half the time I view a pic and add no comment, cause it simply doesn't inspire me one way or the other... That seems to be a trend btw. I see on some shots that something like 30 people viewed it, but only 1 replied. I guess that's a polite yawn.

Btw - I also read the photo.net boards. I personally find the comments here on PR to be more constructive, whereas the photos posted on photo.net are more 'great shots' and people just reply "Hey great shot!" Sort of like the academy awards

[GB1]

Oh yeah: Incidentially Folks, I never have time to view all the posts (actually, only about 20 percent) and a lot of the time I choose the ones with no replies, just to provide feedback to the post'er on what might be up with the shot. It really sucks to get no replies.

GB

[dbutler]

If it's someone new, I will make it a point to view their work and make suggestions if I can. If three months from now the poster is still posting pics that have the same issues that exist today then I may stop viewing their submissions because they are obviously not "listening".

[swmdrayfan]

Think of all the people who stumbled into this thread thinking they were going to see a picture..

Jared......you're definately correct in your assessment....I have posted a lot of 'same old, same old' without really thinking about it. Variety is what marks the complete photographer. I promise a little more variety from here on out. Everyone's suggestions and critiques have been very helpful, and I will take them to heart---I hope I also take them to head, and remember what I'm learning here.

C.L.......baseball and photography are my passion. I spent the entire summer shooting minor league baseball. Those turned out a little better than my landscapes. I'm still catching up on the landscapes.

God help me if I get D mad

I hope I'm beginning a new phase in my education in photography. I have some great teachers here. The next time I go out to shoot, I'll be taking my notes. I think for the time being I'll sit down and write out a plan before I head out with the camera--at least until it becomes automatic. There will be certain limitations equipment-wise, as all I have is the D70, kit lens & 70-300. Oh yeah, an HP Photosmart 850 too. I'll see if I can make the most out of what I have.

[CLKunst]

Let's see those Baseball pictures!

[swmdrayfan]

C.L.-----I'll put some up soon.

[Lava Lamp]

In any system, some will take more than others. I've been around here a long time (longer than my numbe of posts would indicate, since that counter was reset after i'd been here to or three years) and always leave critiques for four or five pictures when I post anything. I comment on others when it is someone tha I've interacted with over the years, or if it is something that hasn't gotten much attention, but I can only comment when I have something to add, which isn't always easy.

Looking at your grand-niece photo for example, you didn't get much in the way of critiques because it is a generally good and nice photo. I pointed out the black corner, which isn't a big deal, but would be an improvement. The cropping you can take or leave.

Looking at the "sawed-off" picture, in contrast, I didn't have anything to say. It's a mildy interesting moment, but a fairly pedestrian photo. There isn't anything overwhelming bad with it to point out, but on the whole it's not going to make into Sports Illustrated, if you know what I mean. There just wasn't much to say that would be of value. Sometimes its just like that.

[swmdrayfan]

Lava, you make interesting points there. So have the others who've responded. Thru this thread I've learned why people do or don't comment on photos, and it's given me a new way of looking at how everyone operates. I needed those responses, and I think it is going to help me become a better member of the community here. As far as the 'sawed off' picture goes, it'd be a stretch for me to believe it's S.I. material ;) But that said, I was fascinated to have captured it (every first time capture of something unique fascinates me).
I thank you and others for pointing out the 'flaw' in the grand-niece picture, and I corrected it. Another lesson (look at the whole picture) was learned and I hope I remember it.