How about a little consideration....

[swmdrayfan]

D.....I don't have any problem with people being at work and such. I understand that completely. What bothers me, and I think a few others, is that after a certain amount of days, if not weeks, there is no response whatsoever, or maybe one or two comments. Look at all the views in relation to comments.....doesn't it take just a few seconds more when you have seen a picture, to jot down your thoughts on it? There are pictures, and I'm sure you'll experience it, where you'll have 127 views and maybe 1 person leaves a word of encouragement or suggestion. Yet if you look at the photos of certain other people, you'll see 127 views and 44 comments and suggestions. I just think it's way out of balance. I think that a person who gets a lot of comments, and doesn't respond in kind to those that aren't as well known on the forums, is looking down their nose, so to speak, at the less known photographer. We all want to hear feedback, no matter what type it is. I think that's why it's called the critique forum---not the' view and move on to someone you know ' forum.
I just felt it was time to vent a little..........I'm not angry at particular individuals, just frustrated that more of us aren't getting the help or guidance, or pats on the back if you will, that we need to grow as photographers. How are we going to know how to improve if someone just blows off our work? Thanks for responding....it's nice to know I have someone's attention. ;)

[dbutler]

Oh, honey, do you see how long I've been a member here? I'm just beginning to get some attention! Gary's a tough old bird! JUST KIDDING!!!

I think it's a rite of passage when it comes to forums. I moderate an infertility forum and I see it all the time there, and I spend time at several photography forums and it's tough there as well (that net place is just awful!). Sometimes I think they want to see just how serious you really are at first before you get completely taken under the wing. And it's a small community so they're all friends here. Just like any friendship, sometimes you have to work at getting in.

Don't give up and don't leave. Just give it time. And to be honest, I don't know if you want comments from someone who is nowhere close to understanding your vision.

Be like me: Annoying, nagging, and annoying. It's how I got attention.

[photophorous]

I understand your frustration. I've posted pictures as well as questions that no one responded too. Don't know if I've commented on any of yours, but I haven't been posting images lately either. I think there are lot of people who just look and read as a way to learn on their own. A lot of times I don't feel qualified to comment, so I don't. I don't want to mislead someone, when I don't know what I'm talking about. So, I usually only comment when I feel strongly about what I have to say. I think I learn more from other people's posts than from my own anyway.

All I can suggest is to keep at it, and eventually some people will catch on. There are lot of very generous and helpful people on this board, and lot of others who probably feel like I described above. Just keep doing your part and people will notice.

Nice to meet you, btw.

Paul

[swmdrayfan]

Come to the light, my children. ;)

I guess sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the grease after all. I don't comment on anything that someone else with far greater knowledge than I has, much like you Paul. There is still soooo much to learn. I get the 'oooohhhhs and ahhhhs' from friends and neighbors like everyone else, but the true test is hearing from someone outside your circle. You need to hear from an unbiased voice--that was the crux of this rant. Never having been the patient one, I do tend to get ahead of myself more often than not. But hey, if enough people see this, and take it in the right spirit, a lot of us will benefit. I already have, thanks to my new best buddy D... and a few others like yourself.

[CLKunst]

Swmdrayfan,

I would go further and suggest that a no comment is sometimes a critique in itself. I post plenty of images that get only one or two comments. I don't find it discouraging. This forum for me is about experimentation and putting things out for general consumption that I'm not sure about. A lack of response I gauge as being a nod toward mediocrity. It's not awful, it's not great, it has not been particularly distinguished itself from the others so I keep trying. To distinguish myself from the crowd is a deep goal of mine. So if something is not generating interest I go back to work on it until it does.

But if you want to generate more than just a pass ask more of a question than "what do you think?" Say "How can I improve this composition? Are these colors strong enough?", etc. Point us in the direction YOU want to take YOUR art.
Critique can also come from within. ;)

Regards,

[swmdrayfan]

Yeah Paul, that thought finally occurred to me, and I went back and edited the title by adding "your comments/thoughts?" Something I should have been doing all along. I'd venture to guess there are more people who think like you do....that no comment is a sign that the picture involved doesn't do enough to elicit a response either way. That, in itself, should inspire me to think a little more about what I want my work to say or show instead of just throwing it out there. I think it should inspire others too, who might be wondering why nobody says anything. You may be closer to the truth than I would have thought.

[gahspidy]

swmdrayfan,
I'm glad you started this post rather than just get frustrated and leave. I can tell you as D has stated that this forum is by far the best critique group on the Web, that I know about. When I first joined, I also had little feedback and was always delighted to check on a thread and see that I finally had a response or two.
It appears that I might not have responded to any of your threads, and I know that you have responded to at least a few of mine, and so I do regret not having been able to recipricate your generosity as I would like to, yet. However, it is not because I do not return the benfits that i recieve on the forum, as you can see if you look at my number of posts in relation to the number of pictures I post for comment. As someone else already mentioned, it usually is trhe case that after you have been around for a time, you will start to see the comments go up. I guess it is because there are quite a number of people that pop on for a while and then leave, that we like to give our time first to those we have already established some give and take with. As for the number of views compared to comments, this is something that gets brought up alot and I always take into consideration is that visitors who are not signed in or not even members, and cannot make comments but are merley browsing and looking, count as views.
I have learned and benefited from this great forum, and after also getting a bit frustrated in the beginning, and very glad that I stuck it out. This forum has been the single most important tool for me in improving my photography. So, I am glad that you brought this up and spoke your mind rather than leaving and I hope to continue seeing your name on the boards.You will surely benefit as well if you just hang in there with us, as I hope you do. Unfortunately, I will not be able to comment on your pics now as it will appear that I am only doing so because you brought up this thread! Just Kidding, of course.
So hang in here. . .it may not be apparent, but I for one am glad you are here and have appreciated the comments you have given me. they were quite honest, insightful, and helpful.

[opus]

As Gary mentioned, I've always pointed out to people that any time you view "who's online" at any given moment, you'll see far more guests and Google Spiders looking at posts, than members. Each time a search engine indexes your post, it counts for a view. As well as guests who may have found your post during a search for "baseball" or "sawed off shotgun" or something completely unrelated to photography. So I never judge by "number of views" how many members are *actually* looking at my photos.

Here's what I've done over the time I've been here. Most of my shots get very few comments. Usually when I've posted them I've been rather excited about them for some reason, and when I'd get NO comments, it was disappointing to me. I needed validation. I needed feedback. So what I'd end up doing was waiting awhile, (weeks and weeks!), then revisiting my shots. If they still thrilled me, then I knew I was decent and I gave myself the validation. If they seemed much more mundane than I thought, then I figured I knew the reason why nobody commented. The picture was only average.

I still go through my file of pictures I've posted on a regular basis. As time goes on, some of them still thrill me, I know they're some of my best, even if I got few or no comments on them. And others, I cringe that I ever posted them.

FYI, I haven't posted anything for critique in months, and I haven't been to the critique boards in as long. I just don't have time to formulate cohesive thoughts about others' work right now.

[swmdrayfan]

Thanks Kelly and Gary for adding your sentiments. This is a very good forum. Many outstanding photographers with much to say. I intend to stay and keep posting. I may not always know what I'm talking about, but I'll try to contribute anyhow.

[payn817]

That's my problem, is either I don't know what I am talking about, or feel that my view is so out of the norm, that I'll look stupid. I like things that are very different, and typically have nothing to add to anything that is common.

I do not get alot of responses myself, and know exactly why. It is simply because everything I post here is either new technique, or sometihng I am not sure about (so either mundane, or just horrible). Like you, I feel it is important to be well rounded, and know many aspects of photography, no matter what my personal type may be.

Most of these people started shooting many years ago, and us new guys got some learning to do before we can add anything beneficial.

[CLKunst]

That's my problem, is either I don't know what I am talking about, or feel that my view is so out of the norm, that I'll look stupid. I like things that are very different, and typically have nothing to add to anything that is common.

I do not get alot of responses myself, and know exactly why. It is simply because everything I post here is either new technique, or sometihng I am not sure about (so either mundane, or just horrible). Like you, I feel it is important to be well rounded, and know many aspects of photography, no matter what my personal type may be.

Most of these people started shooting many years ago, and us new guys got some learning to do before we can add anything beneficial.

I DISAGREE Payne! ;)

EVERYONE has something beneficial to share! It's called unique perspective and it is the Crux of the Biscuit, so to speak. To illustrate I'm encouraging my local photography workshop folks to come out for a digital SLR "Shootout" this Spring. A two part class weekend where we spend the first day shooting it out in a confined area and then spend day two in live critique of everyone's results. This follows the whole point of how unique your perspective is and if you put 100 photographers in a room together no one will come out with exactly the same thing. Someone may say 'I have that exact same shot." but it isn't. It may be from the same place and have the same color or background but it's not the SAME shot. Don't repeat, reconsider, then add your perspective.

[payn817]

You are right!

I guess perhaps it was stated wrong, but if you read the beginning of my reply, you'll see why I feel that way.

If someone posts a photo for critique, and *I* don't like the DOF (for example), but everyone else thinks it is technically correct, then most would say (or assume) I have no clue. If we critique a photo based on our own tastes and expectations, then you are correct, we can all offer something. However, (and this seems to be the case) if we are attempting to be technically accurate, most of us newer people have nothing more than "great shot, etc." to offer.

That being said, we have had great discussions on some works here, and they usually are very informative, and give us an idea of how others perceive our work.

[readingr]

or feel that my view is so out of the norm, that I'll look stupid.

Hmmm! out of the norm? Have you read some of my comments in here? I'm lucky the Institution hasn't; otherwise I'd be straight back into the straight jacket ad rubber room :-)

Seriously though, as you get older especially having run loads of business workshops you realise that there are no stupid ideas or points of view, you may chose to reject them but they are valid to the person making them so don't hold back; and you never know if its the gem that person is looking for. I won't hold back, if I disagree with a comment you'll know about it, in a polite way I hope.

Just to answer some of the points raised in this thread, I am at the moment guilty of browsing and only sporadically adding comments to photos that I think my comments would benefit, i.e. I will not just say great, or repeat a comment. The reason is that I am running at 200% of capacity in work (the cusre of the IT business) and get little time to do any photo's justice, and I haven't picked up my camera in weeks or even looked at some of the pictures I last took.

However, I do try and comment on anyone's photos not just people I have seen and got to know on this site. I will also add my interpretation of a photo to help the photographer to see what my warped brain sees where I think it needs it.

So please don't be offended if you only hear from me infrequently or you have to wait a long while for me to respond, its purely work getting in the way of the things I enjoy.

Hopefully at the begining of January 2006 work will ease off to only 130% allocated.

Roger

PS. appologies if any of my comments offend anyone as they are sometimes very rushed and not properly read and spell checked before submiting.

[swmdrayfan]

I think this is working out pretty good. Everyone who's responded has added weight to the thread, and with any good exchange of dialogue, people step back and consider what the others have said. My attitude has changed significantly, and I'm becoming more aware of what I need to do to become a better photographer, as well as really looking at what others are trying to convey thru their photos. I've stopped letting my ego take a bruising if I don't elicit a lot of comments, and that is worth a lot. By the same token, I've become more active in viewing the work of others. I'm feeling more involved on all fronts.

[CLKunst]

I also wanted to add that some pictures generate a spill of comments because they well represent a common thread of concern or issue surrounding them. These are often more than pat on the backs but earnest discussions between what is "right" and what is "preferred" in the composition or creation of a certain image. Hope that soothes your angst a little. I have certainly been known to snap off a time or two myself,(see my own little rant here - Guitar Hero) it's called being human.

Regards,

[swmdrayfan]

C.L. that's good to know. I know a little rant now and then can stimulate some genuine feedback...looks like I've done that. Done constructively, it may be good for the group ;) .
BTW, I checked out your site.....nice stuff there. I like the guitars too.

[jar_e]

Swmdrayfan,

Let me tell you how I feel about the subject. I've been here for quite a while (2200+ posts) and a large portion (>55%) is into the photo critique forum. People prefer to critique others, as it slowly becomes a mutual thing. That being said, I'll post something and get no reviews for 24 hours. It's hard to set trends in here. I recently didn't post for a few months, and lost intrest. Beyond all this babbling, it's tough. Unfortunately, that's life. I personally try to get to the majority of posts, unless it has 5+ replies, as then things become reptitive.

I hope I helped,

Jared

[LeeIs]

Swmdrayfan,

I would go further and suggest that a no comment is sometimes a critique in itself. I post plenty of images that get only one or two comments. I don't find it discouraging. This forum for me is about experimentation and putting things out for general consumption that I'm not sure about. A lack of response I gauge as being a nod toward mediocrity. It's not awful, it's not great, it has not been particularly distinguished itself from the others so I keep trying. To distinguish myself from the crowd is a deep goal of mine. So if something is not generating interest I go back to work on it until it does.

Well said, and exactly my sentiment.

Swmdrayfan,
I've also had shots where I got 1 or 2 replies if that much. Here and on other sites that I use to frequent. It tells me that that particular shot just doesn't move or do anything for anybody. No big deal. I move on and post another. I personally think that another reason for that is that most people here are geniunely nice. So instead of ripping into that particular shots they just move on and I appreciate that! There are other forums out there in which that shot would've gathered reponses like "blah" "that sucks", "not good enough", etc. We have it nice here if anything.

Don't let that discourage you be annoying and nagging like D! jk

[CLKunst]

Just want to put in that I am really enjoying the air of this thread. I think it is a really good thing to hash it out every once and a while. There are a lot of assumptions you are forced to make about people you would probably not link up with any other way. It is purely representation through our art that we are known to each other. That can be a very powerful but remote way of knowing people. It means you look forward to seeing progress on this or that series that someone is working on, etc. but since you are unfamiliar with their particular perspective on the world you make guesses about the true people themselves by their screen names and avatars, a very blind prospect indeed. It is the realest form of critique, since these assumptions about an artists intent could be drawn almost as easily from a biography photo and artist statement at a "live" exhibition. This is very much like being able to eavesdrop on what a gallery viewer whispers when they see your work, except hopefully, with guidance or honest impression. Anyway thanks for breaking the ice and glad to hear what everyone is thinking.

P.S. Swmdrayfan - Thank you for your kind words about the guitars and my website. Music and photography are a united passion for me.

[jar_e]

On another note, a largre portion of replies are also based on what has been previously posted. Sorry to pick an individual incident, but swmdrayfan, alot of your pics have been recieving the same critique. I know there is a 5 picture limit, but people usually are quite a ways under that, and when people are noticing the same critique, they may no longer view pictures by you. Alot of pictures that some senior members may consider "noob" pics, may not comment on them at all; unfortunately, I'll admit to being guilty of that too.

Not to be confrontational, but it's hard to meet everybody's "standard", and by far, this is one of the most supportive (though not necessairly the best thing) I've been a part of.

Jared

[Photo-John]

I don't know if this will help or not. But I can give you a clearer picture of what the numbers mean. At any given time there might be 50-70 people on these forums. Usually, only about 10% of those people are registered members who can post. The rest are just looking. Plus, not everyone is a participant. Some people just like to look. That's just the way it is. The general rule is, 10% of the people contribute 99% of the what's posted on the forums, reviews, and galleries. What concerns me is that people may be posting photos and not posting critiques. As I said in the guidelines, I expect everyone to give back as much as they recieve on this forum. It also makes me unhappy when people post shallow replies. Every crtitique should be detailed and offer positive, useful, constructive criticism.

Not happy with the response you're getting? Ask for more resplies and lead by example. Post a critique for someone else's photo and at the end of your post ask for comments on your own and leave a link. Don't be proud. Get out there and hustle. Don't get angry be a leader and show us how it's done.

[swmdrayfan]

P-J, after the initial response to this thread, I realized that I needed to do just what you are advocating. I've made it a point to get more active on this board.