Highly upset!!

[Photo-John]

Sorry. I had no idea you were going hungry because of me.

Scott-
If and when you do start making money and getting really serious about photography as a business, you'll start to be concerned about people giving away photos for free. Every time someone gives away a photo for free, someone else loses the potential to make a sale. It may seem mercenary to you. But that's just economics. I shoot mostly mountain bikes and it's hard to make much money because so many photographers are willing to give away images. It devalues all mountain bike photos when manufacturers don't have to pay for photos.

[JSPhoto]

Hi Photo John,

Maybe we do need that topic you mentioned not long ago.....the business side of things.

JS

[ken1953]

Hi Scott, As a musician, and now a photographer, I have worried about this alot and have done a "little" research. As for your pictures, they are, if I understand correctly, automamatically copyrighted, whether they are marked or not. Therefore, you do have "some" rights and controls over your work. The selling of your works for profit without your written permission is a violation of your copyright. Your recourse, basically, is that they must cease selling the copyrighted material. I'm not sure of the legal steps, but once notified to stop selling your stuff, they must stop or you are entitled to compensation. You may have to go to court to get an order to stop them. In music, usually, you will not be compensated for past profits made by the offenders, but any future profits, would be yours completely.
Now, I understand that you don't want to really cause these people any grief, but, you need to be assertive with your works and get the compensation you deserve. Remember, you are the one that has been wronged, and you want and need things to improve your business. If people are always getting away with stealing from you, they will never pay you and you are the only one who will be hurt in the process.
There are diplomatic ways to work with the boosters and still get your just desserts. Go talk with the head of the Boosters and discuss the "copyright infringment" laws, and work out a "future" deal with them to provide photos for a fair compensation. This could be a good way to get your business started if you approach them correctly!!!!
In closing, research the copyright laws very well. They are your friend and not that hard to understand.
Ken

[Sebastian]

As for your pictures, they are, if I understand correctly, automamatically copyrighted... I'm not sure of the legal steps, but once notified to stop selling your stuff, they must stop or you are entitled to compensation. You may have to go to court to get an order to stop them.

That is somewhat correct, but there is much more to it than that.

For one, you can do exactly nothing legally without registering your work with the US Copyright Office. You can send them a CD/DVD with thumbnails of several months work and pay the $30 fee, or you can do it more or less than that. Starting this year, I will be doing it monthly, and I'm just figuring the costs into the cost of doing business.

Without it being registered you have no right to collect attorney fees, only potential damages.

Where do the attorney fees fit in? Taking a copyright case to court starts at a little over $100,000.00 in court costs. So let's say someone uses your image in a way that is worth $10,000 in licensing fees. You get that plus extra because the defendant acted inappropriately, so let's say you end up with $25,000. You still owe the lawyer $75,000. Lawyers are in this to make money, and if they know the defendant doesn't have to pay their fees, they will either refuse to take your case, or make YOU pay the fees up front. Either way, a starving local photog is not taking their case to court.

And, the cases are notoriously difficult to win. So unless you have a VERY tight case and LOTS of damages, and the images are registered, it's pretty much impossible to find a lawyer that will take on your case.

Sorry. I had no idea you were going hungry because of me.

I'm not, because I have a good day job, but I can speak from experience.

Earlier this year I had the opportunity to photograph someone pretty famous. I walked away with some unique images, and I was contacted by the person's organization about licensing them. They wanted unlimited web, print and promotional use. I spent about three weeks doing my research, and figured out the price range their use would fall into. Total for three images was about $7000 per year in fees.

Their counter offer? $200 for my ENTIRE SHOOT. Why? "But, we get them for free from other photographers." THEIR words, not mine. I was pissed because the price was lower than the low average value. I lowered it a bit (about 15%) because I wanted the sale.

Now how do you think someone that makes their entire living would feel if this happened to them? For me it was 7 grand that I really didn't need. For someone else it could have been several months worth of a mortgage, or being able to take their family on vacation.

To you, it's just a hobby, and you like the attention you get from giving out photos. That's nice and all, but keep in mind that this is a profession, and there are people out there that depend on being able to sell the images. Any time you make them freely, and publicly, available you are doing much more bad than good.

[ken1953]

That is somewhat correct, but there is much more to it than that.

For one, you can do exactly nothing legally without registering your work with the US Copyright Office. You can send them a CD/DVD with thumbnails of several months work and pay the $30 fee, or you can do it more or less than that. Starting this year, I will be doing it monthly, and I'm just figuring the costs into the cost of doing business.

Without it being registered you have no right to collect attorney fees, only potential damages.

Where do the attorney fees fit in? Taking a copyright case to court starts at a little over $100,000.00 in court costs. So let's say someone uses your image in a way that is worth $10,000 in licensing fees. You get that plus extra because the defendant acted inappropriately, so let's say you end up with $25,000. You still owe the lawyer $75,000. Lawyers are in this to make money, and if they know the defendant doesn't have to pay their fees, they will either refuse to take your case, or make YOU pay the fees up front. Either way, a starving local photog is not taking their case to court.

And, the cases are notoriously difficult to win. So unless you have a VERY tight case and LOTS of damages, and the images are registered, it's pretty much impossible to find a lawyer that will take on your case.

Just to clarify and confirm what Sebastian is saying. This is a quote from the Copyright laws about "registering" your works. Please note, registration is not required to have a work "copyrighted", but it is necessary to pursue legal action.

" COPYRIGHT REGISTRATION


In general, copyright registration is a legal formality intended to make a public record of the basic facts of a particular copyright. However, registration is not a condition of copyright protection. Even though registration is not a requirement for protection, the copyright law provides several inducements or advantages to encourage copyright owners to make registration. Among these advantages are the following:

• Registration establishes a public record of the copyright claim.
  
• Before an infringement suit may be filed in court, registration is necessary for works of U. S. origin.
  
• If made before or within 5 years of publication, registration will establish prima facie evidence in court of the validity of the copyright and of the facts stated in the certificate.
  
• If registration is made within 3 months after publication of the work or prior to an infringement of the work, statutory damages and attorney's fees will be available to the copyright owner in court actions. Otherwise, only an award of actual damages and profits is available to the copyright owner.
  
• Registration allows the owner of the copyright to record the registration with the U. S. Customs Service for protection against the importation of infringing copies. For additional information, request Publication No. 563 "How to Protect Your Intellectual Property Right," from: U.S. Customs Service, P.O. Box 7404, Washington, D.C. 20044. See the U.S. Customs Service Website at www.customs.gov for online publications.
  

Registration may be made at any time within the life of the copyright. Unlike the law before 1978, when a work has been registered in unpublished form, it is not necessary to make another registration when the work becomes published, although the copyright owner may register the published edition, if desired."

Ken

[hesaias]

Okay, after all that here is the deal: I live in a tiny town in SC. There is no "market" because there is no product. No one does what I do in my town. In order to get into the state championship game on the sidelines, I had to ask a Newspaper editor who I had never met, one day before the game to vouch for me. The only option I had is to offer "free" product. Same deal with the state all star game. However, there i met some guys who may turn out to move me along to getting paid for my pics put in the newspapers. I offered to set up a deal with the school, they blew me off. I have given high res files to 2 people. One is a close family friend, and is on many of the pictures, the other was a church group who printed them and gave them out at the banquet.

Bottom line, you gotta have a market for your product to sell it. Now, I am expected at the games. The parents, and players look for me. the check my site after every game to see the pics. I have created a market to sell prints, but as of yet, I cannot print them. So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there? I am watermarking my stuff now, and I will leave the pics up for a period of time, then remove all but thumbnails linked to an order form for prints.

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

[Photo-John]

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

Never say never!

At the minimum, make sure you tell the school how you feel about their illicit use of your photos. Tell them you would have loved to have them use it. But you feel hurt by them not asking. Being honest about this type of thing is good. They probaby have no idea how you feel. And don't think there's no market. If people are expecting you to show up and they look forward and expect to see your photos, then there's a market. There's a demand for your work. It's worth money. How much is the question. If you work hard, you should be compensated. At the minimum, people should give you the respect you deserve and respect your property.

We all learn a lot of this stuff the hard way. It's ok.

[Trevor Ash]

So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there?

I'm pretty sure you answered your own question in that post.

[masdog]

Okay, after all that here is the deal: I live in a tiny town in SC. There is no "market" because there is no product. No one does what I do in my town. In order to get into the state championship game on the sidelines, I had to ask a Newspaper editor who I had never met, one day before the game to vouch for me. The only option I had is to offer "free" product. Same deal with the state all star game. However, there i met some guys who may turn out to move me along to getting paid for my pics put in the newspapers. I offered to set up a deal with the school, they blew me off. I have given high res files to 2 people. One is a close family friend, and is on many of the pictures, the other was a church group who printed them and gave them out at the banquet.

Bottom line, you gotta have a market for your product to sell it. Now, I am expected at the games. The parents, and players look for me. the check my site after every game to see the pics. I have created a market to sell prints, but as of yet, I cannot print them. So why on earth would I just stop putting the pics out there? I am watermarking my stuff now, and I will leave the pics up for a period of time, then remove all but thumbnails linked to an order form for prints.

I love photography, esp sports photography, I will never be able to make a living at it, but I can support my habit with it.

Scott, I might get bitch-slapped by some other members for this, but I know exactly what kind of situation you're in. In my area, it doesn't seem like there is much of a market for my sports photography. There might not be...or I might not have marketed myself enough yet to get lucrative yearbook and newspaper freelance deals. I'm sure that will come as I advertise (but that is a different topic for a different thread...but as a yearbook photographer in high school, I can tell you that some schools do pay good money for yearbook shots).

Anyway, the point I'm gonna make is this - you really didn't do it for free. You didn't get paid, but you did get something out of it. You got credentials. Now some may say that you're not getting a lot out of it since you didn't get greenbacks. As a beginner with aspirations, that is a lot. It gives you a taste of what you can eventually work towards on a daily or weekly basis.

Now, you probably do have a market for your pictures. The school and its organizations, like they Boosters, the yearbook, and Athletic Department, all have a use for them as well as the local newspaper. Parents probably would be interested in purchasing them as well.

To get their attention, sometimes you need to grease a few wheels. No, don't go bribing school officials. But I've heard that photographers who offer a percentage of their procedes to the school as a donation to the Athletic Program end up with a school that is willing to allow them to sell images.

[srobb]

Scott, check out the link in Janie's post. This is the site which I had mentioned that Old Timer uses. They do everything as far as taking orders for prints and sending them to your customers. I think this would be just the thing for you and what you are wanting to do now. If you have people wanting copies of your work, then you have established your market. You just now have to find the best way to get your work to them.

[Speed]

"Now, I am expected at the games. The parents, and players look for me. they check my site after every game to see the pics. I have created a market to sell prints, but as of yet, I cannot print them."

Sounds to me like you do have a market after all.

As for not being able to print them, there are several options. First is find a Wal Mart, CVS, Half Hour Photo, whatever, that has a machine for making digital prints. You'll have to charge enough to cover your expenses (cost of the print, fuel to get there, your time).
Second method is find an online store for your photo's. There are places where you can upload your photo's, the players, parents, coaches, etc, could go to that site and order their prints. The company will print them and mail them for you, subtract their take, and send you a check. Sebastian was the first one I found out about on this site to do that sort of thing. He can tell you about it.

Even though I have access to a printer capable of making photo's, I prefer going the CVS route myself. Maybe one day, if I get into digital big time, I may start making my own prints.

It's a tough thing to do, asking for money for your work, but you can do it. And it gets easier over time.

PS: The first time someone asks you "How much?", and when you tell them they ask "Why so little?", you'll very quickly become aware of your worth as a photographer. BTDT!!!

[swmdrayfan]

Can open.............worms everywhere.;)

I'm seeing a lot of interesting comments here. Everyone that's chipped in with his/her opinions have made valid points, and I guess I should throw my 2 pennies in. For the last couple of years I've been taking photos at a local minor league stadium, and giving copies to the players in exchange for their autographs on my copies. Last year an arrangement was made to sell my pictures in the souvenir stand with the team, myself, and the player pictured getting a three-way split of the profits. I have a D70, and even though I've managed to sell 3 pictures to a baseball card company, and one to a magazine (all at the going rate they pay), no way do I consider myself a "pro". When approached by people in the stands, I sell them (4x6) at a nominal cost. The local newspaper sends out a photographer occasionally to shoot the games, but other than that, I'm the only "game" in town.

I used to give pictures to people until a couple of my fellow booster club members (figuratively)kicked me in the butt and said I should charge for my work. I figure if they valued my work more than I did, I needed to get with the program. It really hit home last summer when a fan asked one of the ushers if I would photograph his daughter singing the National Anthem, she told him 'sure, for 5 bucks'. When I went to give the guy the 2 copies I had for him, he gave me $20. The moral of the story for me is not to shortchange myself.....if I can give people what they want, and they like it, I don't need to feel guilty for taking their money. Now all I have to do is adjust my prices.

[swmdrayfan]

How's this for irony.....I just recieved an email from the sports information office of a college requesting a hi-res photo of a pitcher on the local minor league team. It will be used in their media guide. He made no mention of payment, so do I tell him I can send him one for a fee, or do I kindly ask what they pay for such photos? I figure if they don't make a habit of paying, at least I can get credit and a copy of the media guide. They want an action shot. This is my first request from a college, so I'm not sure of what to do. If I don't send them one, they'll probably go get one from somewhere else. J-S? PJ? masdog? anyone?

I know, I know...look at my previous post... I have to establish some ground rules. Some of you have dealt with colleges before, and I don't know what to expect.

[Chunk]

How's this for irony.....I just recieved an email from the sports information office of a college requesting a hi-res photo of a pitcher on the local minor league team. It will be used in their media guide.

NOMB but do you have a model release? Seems like they should pay for the use of the pic. They don't give you free classes, do they?

[swmdrayfan]

NOMB but do you have a model release? Seems like they should pay for the use of the pic. They don't give you free classes, do they?

Chunk....I think I have a release filed away. The college is in NC..I'm in Michigan. Nope...no free classes ;)

[masdog]

NOMB but do you have a model release? Seems like they should pay for the use of the pic. They don't give you free classes, do they?

Chunk, I don't think you would need a model release for something like this. The image of the player in action would be considered editorial use, and you don't need the player's permission to sell that image. If I'm not mistaken, you would only need permission from the league.

Sean

[shutterman]

I can't really address the initial complaint about using photos w/o permission. Not sure how I would handle the situation except to say that I now display pictures on the web using a "Flash" program so pictures cannot be copied.

In terms of giving pictures away and others trying to make money - well this is essentially the same as any other market in any other industry where there are relatively low barriers to entry and technology that evolves constantly.

If someone wants to give pictures away than what can you do except to differentiate yourself in some way (service, quality, whatever). You can't expect to have a nice picture and then have someone say "Hey I would like to buy that - take my money" (although I guess that happens occasionally)

You have to sell it, sell yourself, demonstrate why they should pay for yours and not take the freebie. Adina pointed out that she makes a point to get out there and get in front of the customers - helping to create and expand her market.

There is an element of sales in this that you cannot forget and must work at constantly. Would you buy something when you could get it for free? No, but probably the end product isn't exactly the same, but what is the difference b/n the two? That is what you have to sieze upon. If in the end there is a real or percieved difference then you will have a sale and if you live up to your word and are dedicated to the business/art/quality you will have repeat customers.