What is a Christian?

[jgredline]

Hi folks...
Gosh I logged in to respond to the McCain thread and was saddened to see it was locked....

But some things really had me confused...I am really hoping to clarify some things here and folks will not be afraid to share what they believe...

With so many people calling themselves Christians, I would like to hear from individuals what they believe a true Christian to be....

Don't be shy, lets here it..

[adina]

the other thread was locked because people were making thier comments to and about the poster, instead of the posts.

please keep that in mind as this thread progesses....

[Anbesol]

I think the word 'Christian' is an exploited label.

Maybe you're referencing my accusation to soldier as part of your question, I dunno. I am sorry if I offended I was a little over the top. I'm just fed up with the contemporary practice hailing their allegiances to the Nicene apostleship. He suggested that 'Christianity should not be a state mandated religion', I found it quite ironic that he would say that coming from the tradition of a state mandated religion.

[GB1]

I petition to unlock that thread! It was a little heated at times but there was enough interesting, fun and crazy stuff in there to write a novel with.

[jgredline]

I think the word 'Christian' is an exploited label.

. I agree, this is why I asked the question.

Maybe you're referencing my accusation to soldier as part of your question, I dunno.

No, I was asking the question based on the overall thread. I believe that there where atleast 6 different versions of what a Christian is...

I am sorry if I offended I was a little over the top. I'm just fed up with the contemporary practice hailing their allegiances to the Nicene apostleship.

I was not offended at all...

He suggested that 'Christianity should not be a state mandated religion',

I would agree with this, but not only Christianity, but feel people should be able to choose whom they will serve.

I found it quite ironic that he would say that coming from the tradition of a state mandated religion.

I would need to go back and read this in context..

But again, I think it would be good to find out what people think a Christian really is...Perhaps I am wrong in what I believe?

Perhaps Mike would be so kind as to explain what A Christian is. Example, I do not believe Mormons to be Christians, yet they call them self Christians...The KKK also call themselves Christian...So what is a Christian?

[jgredline]

I petition to unlock that thread! It was a little heated at times but there was enough interesting, fun and crazy stuff in there to write a novel with.

I agree. I was not able to participate in the last few pages because I was swamped at work and actually had to work ...The worst part is that I have not been out all week so I have not been able to shoot any pictures...But certainly, there are many things in there to question...

[Didache]

Perhaps Mike would be so kind as to explain what A Christian is. Example, I do not believe Mormons to be Christians, yet they call them self Christians...The KKK also call themselves Christian...So what is a Christian?

Gosh - there is a challenge and a half!

But you ask, so I will attempt some kind of an answer although I admit that it is only partial and someone, I'm sure, will leap in and call me wrong. Worst still, it is impossible to give a clear answer without a certain amount of theological jargon. Still, here goes:

An "orthodox" Christian will be someone who believes in God and that He has revealed himself to the world supremely through Jesus of Nazareth: his incarnation, life, death, resurrection and continuing presence in the world through the Spirit. Jesus shared in the very nature of God, yet left the glory of divinity behind in order to share fully in all that it means to be human for the sake of love. An "orthodox" Christian will believe in this, and will see in it the means by which God reconciled the world to himself and will, in return, commit himself/herself to follow and love the Christ who so willingly gave himself so they might be part of the Kingdom.

A lot of this is summarised in the great ecumenical creeds of the Church (Apostles, Nicene, Athanasian). I will not paste them all, but the Apostle's Creed is not a bad start:

I believe in God, the Father almighty,
creator of heaven and earth.
I believe in Jesus Christ, God's only Son, our Lord,
who was conceived by the Holy Spirit,
born of the Virgin Mary,
suffered under Pontius Pilate,
was crucified, died, and was buried;
he descended to the dead.
On the third day he rose again;
he ascended into heaven,
he is seated at the right hand of the Father,
and he will come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit,
the holy catholic (ie universal) Church,
the communion of saints,
the forgiveness of sins,
the resurrection of the body,
and the life everlasting. Amen.

That, together with the other ecumenical creeds, will define pretty well what an "orthodox" Christian believes (although of course some of the clauses might be understood differently by different people).

You ask about Mormons (and by extension Jehovah's Witnesses etc). It is better to call these "heterodox" in that they reject certain aspects of historical belief, particularly the Trinitarian nature of God and the divinity of Christ. While I would not go so far as to say they are "not Christian", they are certainly not "orthodox" ones, and I think they would admit that themselves.

As for the KKK etc, I think that part of the definition includes "following", ie being Christ-like themselves. In other words, being a Christian is not merely a matter of believing the right things, but also in allowing those beliefs to shape your own world view and behaviour. After all, even the devil believes the "right things"!

In the end though, it is not my place to judge whether someone is or is not a Christian - that judgement is left to the one who is far more qualified than I am. I suspect though that when we arrive at the pearly gates, the question will not be "Did you believe in the Athanasian Creed formulation of the Trinity?", but "Did you love me?"

Cheers
Mike

[reverberation]

Mike, thanks for that post, your last two questions really bring this subject into focus for me.

Personally, I consider myself a Christian because I follow the one commandment that Jesus gave.
I don't believe in those others because there are ten of them.
Any being that created the big bang and has seen all time would not need that many letters to give good direction,
a simple slogan would clearly be the best way to communicate effectively
through time and culture, at least in my opinion. My perspective.
I would vote for it as the best advice ever given anyone
who happened to be spinning
on a large lump of rock
with a small atmosphere
through a vacuum
around a flaming
concentration of gas.

[jgredline]

Mike, I would say I agree with most of what you have written, well done, but I do have a few more questions concerning your post..

Reverberation, Thank you very much for sharing your beliefs. There are many, MANY, folks who who hold to the same basic beliefs. Certainly by definition since you follow Jesus, that would make you a Jesus / Christian follower

I look forward to hearing others beliefs as well..

[Anbesol]

"Did you love me?"

And what about the Buddhists, who many would answer 'yes', but hail from a significantly different tradition and philosophy? What about the atheists who would likely say 'no'? Moreover, what about the fish, the birds, the lions, the dolphins, the elephants, the foxes and the wolves, the rhino's, and the turtles? I think often times when people get into religion, they forget the reality that we are all animals. Perhaps the better question is 'Did you love?'

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

[jetrim]

I think Jesus was a gift of the Jewish tradition, not a prerequisite to god's 'love'.

I have a close friend that converted to juddaism, his take on it is,
"Any religion that was good enough for Jesus is good enough for me"



I will post a meaningful response to the original question when I have a bit more time to organize my thoughts.

[jgredline]

Anbesol,
Thanks for sharing that. I can see where your pro life stance comes from...I think you bring up some good points. I don't agree with them, but good points none the less.

Jetrim,
Thanks for sharing your point.
I look forward to reading what your thoughts are on what A Christian is...

[Frog]

I'm pretty much with Mike and he expresses it much better than I could.
What do you think a Christian is, Javier?

[jgredline]

I'm pretty much with Mike and he expresses it much better than I could.
What do you think a Christian is, Javier?

Thanks Frog. Mikes comments where quite good...
To answer your question, I cheated somewhat. Here is a part of an article I found in Wikipedia. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian
I find I am more like number two...Again, though, this is simply scratching the surface...I will share more of my beliefs a little later...I still want to hear from more folks...
1 Active Christians: Believe salvation comes through Jesus Christ, are committed churchgoers and Bible readers, accept church leadership positions and invest in personal faith development through the church. They also feel obligated to share faith, and about four out of five do so.
2Professing Christians: Also are committed to "accepting Christ as Savior and Lord" as the key to being a Christian (almost 9 in 10), but focus on one's personal relationships with God and Jesus more than on church and Bible reading and sharing faith.

[Skyman]

I believe a Christian is anyone who fits under either of the following rough definitions:

A person who believes Jesus Christ was the Son of God

or

A person who adheres to the moral and philosophical teaching of Jesus Christ.

The difficulty is that Jesus' teachings are subject to interpretation and people have created power structures around the Belief in the divinity of Jesus.

I call myself Christian. I work for a large international religious organization. I don't necessarily adhere to all the teachings of the particular power structure I follow, but let us not get into such esoteric theological debates such as the primacy of conscience. I suppose I believe in the divinity of Christ - although this for me is difficult.

I do get saddened by people who call themselves Christian and then act in ways that don't sit well with MY interpretation of Jesus' teachings. But that is the point isn't it? they are my interpretations and from a philosophical and theological view what right do I have to impose MY views and INTERPRETATIONS on others?

I am struggling as I write this to keep away from all the rhetoric that "Christians" throw at each other. (I tried yesterday when the thread was new but thought I should think about it more)

I like to dream that religion is like music....

you can play your favorite tune for someone but you can't make them like it.

you can try to share your enjoyment with them but the harder you push the less they will agree with you.

All you can really do is say "Listen to this for a moment I really like it" and hope that this inspires them to some love of music even if it isn't the one you love.

[jgredline]

I do get saddened by people who call themselves Christian and then act in ways that don't sit well with MY interpretation of Jesus' teachings. But that is the point isn't it? they are my interpretations and from a philosophical and theological view what right do I have to impose MY views and INTERPRETATIONS on others?

Skyman, Thank you for your very thoughtful response. I appreciate it very much. This section that I highlighted, is I believe the crux of this...At the end of the day, we can only share what WE/I believe Christianity to be...

I do not want this thread to turn into a who is a Christian and who is not....I have been guilty of this in the past and I apologize for that..We will let God be the judge of that..I believe Mike nailed it with the Apostles creed for starters...We need to see what history has to teach us on what and who are Christians...

We need to look at what it means to be born again

How about the resurrection?

Was Jesus God come in the flesh?

There is lots to look at....

The more folks who share their beliefs, the better...There is much to learn and look at here.

[Skyman]

We need to look at what it means to be born again

How about the resurrection?

Was Jesus God come in the flesh?

There is lots to look at....

The more folks who share their beliefs, the better...There is much to learn and look at here.

64 billion dollar questions (both literally and metaphorically)

I was born into my belief structure but grew into my faith. - am not born again in the reformist sense of the word. Historically this raises an interesting point. In Catholic traditions Baptism occurred close to birth to free a child from original sin. Holy Communion (which many christian traditions don't follow) occurred in mid childhood to bring them closer to God and Confirmation was traditionally held at the age of reason (in line with the Jewish Bahmitzvah) To a Catholic being born again is silly. They were baptized at childhood and took a conscious decision to affirm that faith at the age of reason. To a Baptist on the other hand being born again is an integral part of their belief structure and can't understand how someone can call themselves Christian and not accept Christ as an adult..... It amounts to the same thing in my opinion and stems from a historical misunderstanding and poor application of Catholic rituals.

Was Jesus God become flesh? this is a matter of faith.

The youth of My church are in open dialogue with other Christian faiths, Jews, Muslims and Hindus to name a few. The premise of why this works is that "My God is not better than yours" and "lets not linger on our differences but celebrate our similarities." and "All our diverse beliefs are ways of understanding the divine better how can we learn from each other" I have first hand experience of people's faiths being enriched and deepened by this sharing.

Personally I make it a point to spend some time walking in others faiths so I can respond from a point of love not hate. I believe that this is how Jesus would respond.

[jgredline]

Skyman,
Again thanks for the thought out response..These are exactly the kind of things that I would like to discuss..

Here are more questions I through out to you and others.
What is your view on salvation?
What is your view on Hell?
What is your view on the devil?

[Anbesol]

Javier - I have a question for you too, and anyone else compelled to answer. Are we then, not Animals? Are we not actually part of the animal kingdom? What do you think?

[Skyman]

Eternal and intangible questions!

salvation is a really interesting term as it is misused both inclusively and exclusively.

Hell was described really well in the "Heretical" film Dogma. "I have felt the absence of the divine presence and it pains me" - again how can my speculation over the nature of heaven and hell have any more validity than anyone else'.

The devil is a very interesting question. Just like Jesus Christ, the devil is a matter of faith and belief. The bible references the devil as a physical and human manifestation, however the devil can also be interpreted as those things that remove us from the divine or are in conflict with Jesus teachings and philosophies. Again completely a matter of perspective and interpretation.

most of the questions you have asked pose only more questions. The answers lie (i think) inside yourself. It is easy for me to say, but embracing a spiritual journey is a life long task, and it involves attempting to expand and enrich all aspects of your life. The difficulty is that the more you learn about yourself and your faith, the more you realize you need to know.

OK really should go and do something productive.

[Frog]

Anbesol, I believe theologians have been discussing that premise for many years.
Of course we are animals and are blessed and cursed with all the biological necessaties of life and reproduction.
What is different about us from other animals other than being only one of two species that engage in mating behavior for pleasure and the only one that walks bipedally.
As far as is known we are the only ones that ask "why". And maybe the only ones that have a sense of right and wrong.

Javier, salvation, hell, the devil have been the discussion of many theologians for a long time. Some said its this and others say its that
I don't think anyone knows and I am skeptical of anyone that says they do..
I don't think they are physical places or persons and for myself, as soon as I would try to define or even just imagine what they are, I find myself needing to take another step and another ad infinutum.
I was once told that heaven is where we get to sing praises to God eternally. Well God is pretty great alright but doesn't that sound a bit boring? Of course I might change my mind when I'm there.

[HeLuvsYou]

Skyman,
Again thanks for the thought out response..These are exactly the kind of things that I would like to discuss..

Here are more questions I through out to you and others.
What is your view on salvation?
What is your view on Hell?
What is your view on the devil?

Mind if I jump in? I'm new to the photo thing but I also dig hanging in the off topics stuff. My belief is that salvation is belief that Jesus died for your sins. You have to ask him to come in and be Lord of your life. Ask for your sins to be forgiven. He wants to fellowship with you and love you. There is only one way there. Jesus said no one goes to the Father except through Him.

Hell is real. A loving God doesn't WANT to see you there but it's also our choice. He gives us the choice to follow or reject. There is no in between. "Purgatory" ? sorry. Not happening. That's like hosing off before you take a bath. Jesus takes you just the way you are. His blood covers the rest.

The D Man is very real and present today. He works overtime to try to steal you away from our Father. His lies are getting more harsh. It's my experience that He finds your weakness and jumps on it. For me, it's all the stuff from my past. I've been delivered from some nasty stuff. D man can't ahve me any more. I've been bought and paid for by the blood of Jesus and that's that!! :thumbsup:

[Didache]

A further thought on this topic, not so much on the definition of a Christian, but how that definition is phrased. It is very easy to create a definition which is exclusive (ie which shuts people out). We have, I think, to be very careful here. Jesus was the most incredibly IN-clusive person: most of his ministry involved touching people who were outsiders: people with diseases etc which barred them from the normal religious life of the nation, women in an age when they counted for nothing, and so on. Indeed, one of the accusations they made against him was that he seemed to care too much for the drunkards, prostitutes and assorted sinners. Nothing EX-clusive about Jesus!

Equally, he reserved his harshest words for the religious people who thought that they were the only ones "in" the kingdom while others were "out". It's very sobering, I think, to reflect on that - very often in Christian circles you get something of the same attitude coming through.

So, however we define or describe a Christian, I think it is important to remember that Jesus was and is a lot more IN-clusive than many of his followers. One more reason to be wary of judging other people who do not quite match up to what "we" think the definition is.

Cheers
Mike

[HeLuvsYou]

Hiyas Mike!

I agree with you to a point. You ARE right about Jesus being INclusive with the drunkards and adulterers and such BUT ( ) He loved them anough to not let them stay in their sinful state. He told them about the kingdom to come (heaven) and how they can get there.
You are also VERY right about "religiosity". Too many churches forget the real ministry Jesus was about.

Good post. Hope to read more from you.

[jgredline]

HeLuvsyou,
Welcome to PR and thanks for sharing your thoughts. I will elaborate a little more on that in a little while....

Mike,
I could not agree with you more in what your last statement is. I have been pondering what I want to say all morning. To be perfectly Honest, I have been praying about what to say for the past few hours....

There is so much to discuss, but I will share what ''I'' believe a Christian to be.
Please ''all'' feel free to disagree, but please explain why..