Aliens - and I don't mean border crossers

[schrackman]

Why would God create such an enormous universe if we were supposed to only live in our one little teeny weeny bit of it. What is the purpose of it?

God's reasons are given in Genesis chapter 1, verse 14: To help man divide day from night, to be for signs, and so we can keep track of time.

But there is also a more important reason given by God:

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard." Psalm 19:1

In other words, this enourmous universe was created by God to tell you and every other human on earth "I exist."

Even when I was an unbeliever, I would often marvel at the universe and the utter incomprehensible size of it. Now I marvel at the God who made it.

[mwfanelli2]

I guess I don't fit on "the list" because I think that if ufos are piloted by some sort of intelligence that intelligence is not alien.

I read somewhere that UFOs are just teenaged aliens who like to buzz primitive planets to create panic. I forget where I read that.

On all the planets and moons around all the stars in all the galaxies, we surely can't be "all there is". Come on, just look at us. Look at what we do to one another and listen how we talk to each other.

This is the logical fallicy I promised to explain. Whether you realize it or not, you are using statistics. But for statistics to have meaning, you must know something about the underlying premise.

The fact of the matter is that man does not yet know what life is. Sure, you can have all sorts of guesses and beliefs but in actual fact no one has any clue. We can say "this is dead" or "this is alive" and even then it's not always clear. Take a virus for example! But we have no idea what is different about that difference.

So, for all those people who decide that the universe is just so big there has to be other intelligent life out there, there is also the equal but opposite view: maybe life is so incredibly difficult to achieve and incredibly rare that it takes an entire universe to get one example of it.

Both arguments are equal and there is no way to tell which is right.

Please, I know the "faithful" out there will throw all sorts of supernatural stuff out but hey, religion is just something people want to believe so they can feel happy at night. It doesn't help choose the real truth here any more than talk of Valhalla and the valkyries and norns do.

[jgredline]

So, for all those people who decide that the universe is just so big there has to be other intelligent life out there, there is also the equal but opposite view: maybe life is so incredibly difficult to achieve and incredibly rare that it takes an entire universe to get one example of it.

Both arguments are equal and there is no way to tell which is right.

Please, I know the "faithful" out there will throw all sorts of supernatural stuff out but hey, religion is just something people want to believe so they can feel happy at night. It doesn't help choose the real truth here any more than talk of Valhalla and the valkyries and norns do.

Why would God create such an enormous universe if we were supposed to only live in our one little teeny weeny bit of it. What is the purpose of it?

The Key word here in this statement is create. This brings up a very good point...
The bible starts out by making a very bold statement.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..The Hebrew word for create is bara. It means to make something that has not been in existence before...This is important, because the ''something'' would mean that God created all ''matter''...Notice also that heavens is a plural word. This single verse is implying and saying that God created ''all matter''....

Now here is a conversation that All Mighty God had with a fellow named Job...Now weather you believe it or not, Read it anyway. If anything it is a pretty cool story and then ask the question...

Why would God create people and only people in the first place?
I believe the answer to this question will answer the question as to weather or not there are aliens out there...

The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job 38

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen. 
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, 
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
41 Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

[mwfanelli2]

[COLOR="Blue"]The Key word here in this statement is create. This brings up a very good point... The bible starts out by making a very bold statement...

As we stated over and over again in the "other" thread, you are using a written document that you have chosen to believe is somehow holy. The only people you can use this stuff as evidence on are other believers. To those of us who don't see the bible as anything special, it's just nonsense and doesn't prove anything.

[Loupey]

You know, that it is plausible that the early Earth was "contaminated" by debris falling from comets and meteorites. Aliens don't have to be big, nasty, green, or gut-popping.

It is just possible that all subsequent life on Earth are "extraterrestrials".


How cool is that!


Edit: I guess I spilled the beans by implying that I believe in evolution

[Frog]

UFOs are piloted by a previously unknown lifeform which has a controlled population residing in habitats beneath the oceans floors. This explains the huge eyes and lack of pigmentation. It also explains why they are seen at all since we reside on the same planet.
That a life form would journey across our galaxy or even from other galaxies to visit us for whatever purpose has been planted in your minds by government control of sci-fi books and movies, even going so far as to drop just enough government coverup news to peek the curiousity of the public. No one would imagine that life forms from other planets would visit us, an insignificant rock in an insignificant solar system, in an insignificant galaxy, if it weren't for the propaganda spread by sci-fi movies and novels.
The earth is pretty interesting to me because I live here but if I had the whole universe to visit? And why would alien life forms from wherever have human shapes?

[mwfanelli2]

You know, that it is plausible that the early Earth was "contaminated" by debris falling from comets and meteorites. Aliens don't have to be big, nasty, green, or gut-popping.

There is growing thought that water on Earth was brought here by collisions early in Earth's life. I find that interesting because, as you say, that could also mean we are nothing more than contaminants!

FWIW, Green Bank (NRAO) has been studying organic molecules, large ones, in nebulas of the Milky Way. When first discovered, it was a huge surprise. Now, even more complex structures are being found.

Edit: I guess I spilled the beans by implying that I believe in evolution

Thanks to genome molecular biology and biochemistry, evidence for evolution continues to pile up very quickly. Supernatural explanations are getting more and more frantic. It's sort of the same thing as when supporters of the geocentric theories of the churches long ago were dragged kicking and screaming to a heliocentric point of view and then, gasp, finding out that the orbits of the planets are ellipses instead of perfect circles! With what we know today, those people would be catatonic.

[mwfanelli2]

And why would alien life forms from wherever have human shapes?

We know they all look pretty much the same as us: Star Trek proved that. They couldn't say it on TV if is weren't true!

[jgredline]

Thanks to genome molecular biology and biochemistry, evidence for evolution continues to pile up very quickly. Supernatural explanations are getting more and more frantic. It's sort of the same thing as when supporters of the geocentric theories of the churches long ago were dragged kicking and screaming to a heliocentric point of view and then, gasp, finding out that the orbits of the planets are ellipses instead of perfect circles! With what we know today, those people would be catatonic.

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

[mwfanelli2]

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

That is the difference between science and other fields such as religion and philosophy.

Science describes HOW things work. I can give detailed accounts of inertia and how it interacts with everything else. Asking WHY mass has inertia is not a scientific question: there is no way to apply the scientific method to it. For that question, you need philosophy and religion or some different supernatural explanations. Once again, neither philosophy nor the supernatural have ever answered a single logical question. You have to choose to believe without logical proof whatever they tell you.

But the "hows" have this nasty tendency of expanding their range, pushing out the supernatural stuff that was holding their place. People used to believe all sorts of crazy things about how objects in the sky moved. It took Newton and Einstein to apply gravity. Galileo was heavily persecuted by the church because he kept changing the "mysterious" wonders of religion into explainable hows. The same with how the sun works, how stars are formed and die, tracing DNA backwards using male offspring, etc. "Wonders of God" become "Hows" as time marches on (although there really is no absolute time!).

But fear not! There will be many more unknowns than knowns throughout your life and the lives of many more generations. You can apply whatever supernatural explanations you want! But as time goes on, people and aliens in the future will look back at our civilization and see Christianity, and all of our other religions, as quaint and silly just as we look back at the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans.

No matter what you do, change occurs, progress is continuous, and digging one;'s heals in only slows things a little bit. Just wait until those aliens land and say "Howdy!" You say it will never happen but never is a very long time. I have a secret faith (!) that it will happen. I would love to see the frantic scrambling that goes on when the devout religious types can no longer exhibit the towering piles of hubris, that humans are the be all and end all of life, at the center of it all!

[jorgemonkey]

If there is intelligent life on other planets, we'd probably never know about it.

They're too intelligent to come over to earth & get mixed up with us humans

[Loupey]

I've often wondered what would happen if a little green alien did land and came out of his craft. Would people be fearful and kill it? Would we immediately hole it up in some military prison? Unfortunately, I don't think people would give it the key to the city.

Similarly, I've wondered what the world would be like had the several lines of hominids survived as they did at one time (at the same time) long ago. We can't, as one species, live without going to war at any given time or doing unspeakable things to others for one reason or another.

Imagine a non-man, man living amongst us. Not possible as we are. Impossible with beings from "outer space". Sorry, but the human race would not be a member of the Federation of Planets no matter how lofty we think we are.

[mn shutterbug]

Interesting thoughts, loupey. You make some good points. We are a hostile race, for sure.

If a little green alien landed here, I believe he'd be killed immediately and then dissected, for the "sake of science".

[MJS]

If they come to visit during a primary election, they'll shoot first and won't bother asking questions later.

[Loupey]

Sadly, I think that the little green ambassador, who might be the answer to all our problems, would be immediately dissected and placed in glass jars. All the potential hopes and goodness lost to fear - fear of others (more aliens?) and fear of ourselves (what if Country X get their hands on this guy?).

On a similar note, if the Jesus did return (and my apologies because I truly know next to nothing about this topic), wouldn't he be immediately swamped by the masses? How could he get any work done? How would he get around? Hopefully this last point won't start a fiery debate - I just like to think about the logistics and processes of challenging subjects.

[walterick]

Hi Wink! Sorry I didn't see your first post before! If you'd like to make a formal introduction, our Viewfinder forum is the best place for that. There is a Welcome Thread at the top (and also in my signature) which you can also place an introduction in. Welcome aboard, thanks for your contribution!

Rick

[walterick]

I think I'm in #5 - mathematically probable. I guess the law of averages here would also dictate that there's life somwhere else out there. It seems logical to me. I think we have been visited, they may even be walking among us But it's fun to believe this, I have no proof. And since we're in the "off topic" forum if I have to watch one more movie that explains "all the technological advances of the last century like the computer chip and the microwave oven on alien technology that has been reverse engineered" I am going to through the screenwriter to Mars! ha.

[jgredline]

?).
On a similar note, if the Jesus did return (and my apologies because I truly know next to nothing about this topic), wouldn't he be immediately swamped by the masses? How could he get any work done? How would he get around? Hopefully this last point won't start a fiery debate - I just like to think about the logistics and processes of challenging subjects.

Great question and statement...I am glad you asked because I thought about bringing this up, but did not know how.
The bible teaches that there will be a ''rapture''..This is an event that will take place sometime in the very near future. Those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be caught up (raptured).Now these would be the true Church...Now right after the Rapture of the church, The Lord Jesus Christ will return shortly afterwards with the Church to rescue Israel before they are destroyed ,but this time he will be riding a white horse and will take his rightful position as King here on earth...When this happens Satan will be bound for 1000 years, before being released for a short time and then the final judgment...

Now here is where it ties into this ''alien'' thread..It is my opinion that when the Christians are gone, people will blame it on alien abductions...This is why I believe we have these alien ufo sightings...

[mwfanelli2]

You know as well as I do that the concept of the rapture is hotly debated among Christians. Also, the timing of when this will happen have embarrassed many people in the past all the way through today. Why? It never happens regardless of all the "signs" including alien abductions.

Alien abductions could be lots of other things. Some say its the results of "vivid dreaming" which is a state of sleep that is much more real than normal. People prone to this often can't tell the difference between the dream and reality.

There are also several other mental irregularities that can cause people to believe they have been abducted.

Besides why would we want to abduct... Uh... I mean, why would they want to abduct humans anyway?

[jgredline]

You know as well as I do that the concept of the rapture is hotly debated among Christians. Also, the timing of when this will happen have embarrassed many people in the past all the way through today. Why? It never happens regardless of all the "signs" including alien abductions.

Yep, The rapture has been debated almost as much as calvinism vs armeniaism...
But I will say this and I am not making an excuse for anyone...The bible says that no one knows the day or the hour when this will happen...All the sighns are still not in place ''prophetically'' of things that need to happen before Christ return...We are close and getting closer..Things like a one world currency for example. Look at whats happened to the dollar. What about the introduction of the euro? What about the technology advancements that have happened? There is now a way for all the world to witness the death and resurrection of the two witnesses? What about bar codes and chips that are now in place to replace money? (666) Yes the mark of the beast. What about Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 in fulfillment of a prophecy in exekial 37-38?...No doubt many predictions have been made that have not come to pass, but man is not infallible only the bible is..

Alien abductions could be lots of other things. Some say its the results of "vivid dreaming" which is a state of sleep that is much more real than normal. People prone to this often can't tell the difference between the dream and reality.

This would come down to interpretation. To me abduction means to be taken away by force.

There are also several other mental irregularities that can cause people to believe they have been abducted.

No argument here..I agree

Besides why would we want to abduct... Uh... I mean, why would they want to abduct humans anyway?

This will need to be answered by someone who believes in alien abduction. I mearly pointed out that it would be an excuse to use when all the Christians are gone.