Aliens - and I don't mean border crossers

[jgredline]

Thanks to genome molecular biology and biochemistry, evidence for evolution continues to pile up very quickly. Supernatural explanations are getting more and more frantic. It's sort of the same thing as when supporters of the geocentric theories of the churches long ago were dragged kicking and screaming to a heliocentric point of view and then, gasp, finding out that the orbits of the planets are ellipses instead of perfect circles! With what we know today, those people would be catatonic.

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

[mwfanelli2]

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

That is the difference between science and other fields such as religion and philosophy.

Science describes HOW things work. I can give detailed accounts of inertia and how it interacts with everything else. Asking WHY mass has inertia is not a scientific question: there is no way to apply the scientific method to it. For that question, you need philosophy and religion or some different supernatural explanations. Once again, neither philosophy nor the supernatural have ever answered a single logical question. You have to choose to believe without logical proof whatever they tell you.

But the "hows" have this nasty tendency of expanding their range, pushing out the supernatural stuff that was holding their place. People used to believe all sorts of crazy things about how objects in the sky moved. It took Newton and Einstein to apply gravity. Galileo was heavily persecuted by the church because he kept changing the "mysterious" wonders of religion into explainable hows. The same with how the sun works, how stars are formed and die, tracing DNA backwards using male offspring, etc. "Wonders of God" become "Hows" as time marches on (although there really is no absolute time!).

But fear not! There will be many more unknowns than knowns throughout your life and the lives of many more generations. You can apply whatever supernatural explanations you want! But as time goes on, people and aliens in the future will look back at our civilization and see Christianity, and all of our other religions, as quaint and silly just as we look back at the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans.

No matter what you do, change occurs, progress is continuous, and digging one;'s heals in only slows things a little bit. Just wait until those aliens land and say "Howdy!" You say it will never happen but never is a very long time. I have a secret faith (!) that it will happen. I would love to see the frantic scrambling that goes on when the devout religious types can no longer exhibit the towering piles of hubris, that humans are the be all and end all of life, at the center of it all!

[Xia_Ke]

Of course, our government has the funds to do so. Our country has wasted so much of our money on space programs, why not go farther in debt investigating the extremely minute chance of other life forms.

Well, at least it would be better spent than on these stupid baseball steroid hearings...LOL

[mwfanelli2]

On another note, Where and what do you teach?

Physics (levels of conceptual through calculus-based), conceptual Physical Science, Light Science (physics for visual arts students), weather, and various math courses. Not all at the same time, of course!

[Loupey]

This thread I like.

My personal views:
1) Is there life "out there"? Yes, probably teeming with them.
2) Are there any "intelligent" life out there? Yes, but only a small percentage as compared to #1 above
3) Have any intelligent life visited earth? I seriously doubt it (from a logistical standpoint)

On all the planets and moons around all the stars in all the galaxies, we surely can't be "all there is". Come on, just look at us. Look at what we do to one another and listen how we talk to each other.


And when we discover them, I'm going to photograph them/it/him/her

[jgredline]

I find this very interesting! It is a topic I dedicate a bit of time to in my classes when I am teaching astronomy. The breakdown runs along the way we see here:

1. Religious: Man is the center of the universe so we are the sole benefactors of god's attention.

2. Practical: If I don't see hard evidence I don't believe it.

3. Eyewitness: So many people report seeing UFOs, and all are alien life forms (!), it has to be true.

4. Abductees: Aliens love to stick probes where they don't belong.

5. Statistical: With so many stars, if only 10% have planets.... you know the drill..

6. Grab bag: variations on, and mixtures of, the above.

7. The very interesting comments by Stephen Hawking that shoots down the statistical approach. I'll reveal this later on.

My students are overwhelmingly in favor of "unlikely." Odd. I'm more along the "practical" track but secretly hoping for LGM to be true.

Pretty good list.
For ''fun'' and I say ''FUN'' IT might be interesting to look at all seven views. While I clearly fall into the first one on your list, I would love to hear what others believe in regards to where they fit on the list....

Having been in many debates over the years, I feel it is important to say this...That at the end of the day we remain friends..How do we do this? Simple...
Respect each others view and opinion.
No Ad Homien attacks, we are not kids
and finally, Agree to disagree....

On another note, Where and what do you teach?

[Frog]

There may or may not be intelligent life in other parts of the universe but its very unlikely that they would travel light years to get here.
There is no question that UFOs exist. Anytime something in the sky is not identifiable its a UFO.
The silly part is to assume they come from some far off galaxy.

[zrfraser]

No I am not kidding. I am not saying sh was probed or had experiments performed on her, but there is an amount of time that cannot be accounted for, and she woke up in an unfamilair place. No she wasn't drinking, or drugged, or kidnapped, or sleepwalking. She is a very educated woman, with no reason to make it up. She also has vivid flashbacks of things she cannot explain. I know there are some pyschological things that could cause this. Even my wife who is a registered psychologist even believes that it is a possibilty after talking to my sister.

[Frog]

I guess I don't fit on "the list" because I think that if ufos are piloted by some sort of intelligence that intelligence is not alien.
The idea that they are alien started with sci fi stories liek war of the worlds and everyone just jumped on the band wagon.

[mwfanelli2]

I guess I don't fit on "the list" because I think that if ufos are piloted by some sort of intelligence that intelligence is not alien.

I read somewhere that UFOs are just teenaged aliens who like to buzz primitive planets to create panic. I forget where I read that.

On all the planets and moons around all the stars in all the galaxies, we surely can't be "all there is". Come on, just look at us. Look at what we do to one another and listen how we talk to each other.

This is the logical fallicy I promised to explain. Whether you realize it or not, you are using statistics. But for statistics to have meaning, you must know something about the underlying premise.

The fact of the matter is that man does not yet know what life is. Sure, you can have all sorts of guesses and beliefs but in actual fact no one has any clue. We can say "this is dead" or "this is alive" and even then it's not always clear. Take a virus for example! But we have no idea what is different about that difference.

So, for all those people who decide that the universe is just so big there has to be other intelligent life out there, there is also the equal but opposite view: maybe life is so incredibly difficult to achieve and incredibly rare that it takes an entire universe to get one example of it.

Both arguments are equal and there is no way to tell which is right.

Please, I know the "faithful" out there will throw all sorts of supernatural stuff out but hey, religion is just something people want to believe so they can feel happy at night. It doesn't help choose the real truth here any more than talk of Valhalla and the valkyries and norns do.

[Frog]

UFOs are piloted by a previously unknown lifeform which has a controlled population residing in habitats beneath the oceans floors. This explains the huge eyes and lack of pigmentation. It also explains why they are seen at all since we reside on the same planet.
That a life form would journey across our galaxy or even from other galaxies to visit us for whatever purpose has been planted in your minds by government control of sci-fi books and movies, even going so far as to drop just enough government coverup news to peek the curiousity of the public. No one would imagine that life forms from other planets would visit us, an insignificant rock in an insignificant solar system, in an insignificant galaxy, if it weren't for the propaganda spread by sci-fi movies and novels.
The earth is pretty interesting to me because I live here but if I had the whole universe to visit? And why would alien life forms from wherever have human shapes?

[jorgemonkey]

If there is intelligent life on other planets, we'd probably never know about it.

They're too intelligent to come over to earth & get mixed up with us humans

[Loupey]

I've often wondered what would happen if a little green alien did land and came out of his craft. Would people be fearful and kill it? Would we immediately hole it up in some military prison? Unfortunately, I don't think people would give it the key to the city.

Similarly, I've wondered what the world would be like had the several lines of hominids survived as they did at one time (at the same time) long ago. We can't, as one species, live without going to war at any given time or doing unspeakable things to others for one reason or another.

Imagine a non-man, man living amongst us. Not possible as we are. Impossible with beings from "outer space". Sorry, but the human race would not be a member of the Federation of Planets no matter how lofty we think we are.

[mn shutterbug]

Interesting thoughts, loupey. You make some good points. We are a hostile race, for sure.

If a little green alien landed here, I believe he'd be killed immediately and then dissected, for the "sake of science".

[MJS]

If they come to visit during a primary election, they'll shoot first and won't bother asking questions later.

[Loupey]

Sadly, I think that the little green ambassador, who might be the answer to all our problems, would be immediately dissected and placed in glass jars. All the potential hopes and goodness lost to fear - fear of others (more aliens?) and fear of ourselves (what if Country X get their hands on this guy?).

On a similar note, if the Jesus did return (and my apologies because I truly know next to nothing about this topic), wouldn't he be immediately swamped by the masses? How could he get any work done? How would he get around? Hopefully this last point won't start a fiery debate - I just like to think about the logistics and processes of challenging subjects.

[jgredline]

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On a similar note, if the Jesus did return (and my apologies because I truly know next to nothing about this topic), wouldn't he be immediately swamped by the masses? How could he get any work done? How would he get around? Hopefully this last point won't start a fiery debate - I just like to think about the logistics and processes of challenging subjects.

Great question and statement...I am glad you asked because I thought about bringing this up, but did not know how.
The bible teaches that there will be a ''rapture''..This is an event that will take place sometime in the very near future. Those who have placed their faith in the Lord Jesus Christ will be caught up (raptured).Now these would be the true Church...Now right after the Rapture of the church, The Lord Jesus Christ will return shortly afterwards with the Church to rescue Israel before they are destroyed ,but this time he will be riding a white horse and will take his rightful position as King here on earth...When this happens Satan will be bound for 1000 years, before being released for a short time and then the final judgment...

Now here is where it ties into this ''alien'' thread..It is my opinion that when the Christians are gone, people will blame it on alien abductions...This is why I believe we have these alien ufo sightings...

[mwfanelli2]

You know as well as I do that the concept of the rapture is hotly debated among Christians. Also, the timing of when this will happen have embarrassed many people in the past all the way through today. Why? It never happens regardless of all the "signs" including alien abductions.

Alien abductions could be lots of other things. Some say its the results of "vivid dreaming" which is a state of sleep that is much more real than normal. People prone to this often can't tell the difference between the dream and reality.

There are also several other mental irregularities that can cause people to believe they have been abducted.

Besides why would we want to abduct... Uh... I mean, why would they want to abduct humans anyway?

[jgredline]

You know as well as I do that the concept of the rapture is hotly debated among Christians. Also, the timing of when this will happen have embarrassed many people in the past all the way through today. Why? It never happens regardless of all the "signs" including alien abductions.

Yep, The rapture has been debated almost as much as calvinism vs armeniaism...
But I will say this and I am not making an excuse for anyone...The bible says that no one knows the day or the hour when this will happen...All the sighns are still not in place ''prophetically'' of things that need to happen before Christ return...We are close and getting closer..Things like a one world currency for example. Look at whats happened to the dollar. What about the introduction of the euro? What about the technology advancements that have happened? There is now a way for all the world to witness the death and resurrection of the two witnesses? What about bar codes and chips that are now in place to replace money? (666) Yes the mark of the beast. What about Israel becoming a nation again in 1948 in fulfillment of a prophecy in exekial 37-38?...No doubt many predictions have been made that have not come to pass, but man is not infallible only the bible is..

Alien abductions could be lots of other things. Some say its the results of "vivid dreaming" which is a state of sleep that is much more real than normal. People prone to this often can't tell the difference between the dream and reality.

This would come down to interpretation. To me abduction means to be taken away by force.

There are also several other mental irregularities that can cause people to believe they have been abducted.

No argument here..I agree

Besides why would we want to abduct... Uh... I mean, why would they want to abduct humans anyway?

This will need to be answered by someone who believes in alien abduction. I mearly pointed out that it would be an excuse to use when all the Christians are gone.

[walterick]

I think I'm in #5 - mathematically probable. I guess the law of averages here would also dictate that there's life somwhere else out there. It seems logical to me. I think we have been visited, they may even be walking among us But it's fun to believe this, I have no proof. And since we're in the "off topic" forum if I have to watch one more movie that explains "all the technological advances of the last century like the computer chip and the microwave oven on alien technology that has been reverse engineered" I am going to through the screenwriter to Mars! ha.