Metering and Exposure question

[yoyo123]

I hope I am explainig this correctly, so please bear with me.

I have been taking pictures of the spring runoff jsut outside of Boulder Colorado. However, I am not satisfied with the exposure and level of detail in the shadows. So I am seeking advise. Here are the environmental conditions.

1. I am inside a narrow canyon so the side are quite high.
2. The sun is to my right or behind me most of the time.
3. I am inside the canyon approx 9:00 am. Since the canyon is so narrow and the sides are high, this keeps a lot of light out of the canyon and makes some rather dramatic shadows in the areas that do have sunlight that early in the morning.

This is what I have been doing:
1. I am using ISO 200 Speed film.
2. I am using a very narrow aperture for max depth of field and long exposure time.
3. I am spot metering the darkest shadowed area and using that as a basis of the longest time I can leave the shutter open.

In one instance I had an Aperture of around F32 (I think) and a shutter speed of around 1/2 to 1 sec. However, I am still not seeing the shadow detail I want. Anyone have any suggestions at to how I can maintain the long exposure time while also increasing the shadow detail of dark areas without overexposing the rest of the frame?

[berrywise]

One way would be to spot meter a neutral tonal area and then bracket multiple shots around that reading. Take notes on paper as to what you did on each shot so that when you get your photos back you can see what each setting did for each photo. This really works best with slide film because the lab technicians will not have any major control over the outcome of the images.

[yoyo123]

Would a tree trunk or tree leaves be considered "Neutral Tonal Areas?" I think I am having a hard time figuring out which are considered "neutral"

[berrywise]

The best way to determine that would probably be to save you the trouble and recommend you purchase a grey card. This little piece of cardboard won't set you back more than 15 dollars and can come in quite handy when trying to determine what exposure to use.

It is not so much the color of something that makes it neutral but how much light it reflects. Pick up a grey card and walk around town and take some measurements off it and compare them with things like the grass, the street, dark windows etc. This will give you an indication as to what reflects back about the same amount. I like to keep one in my photo bag to save me the trouble of trying to find suitable substitues.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/cont...u=27715&is=REG

[yoyo123]

So to use these, I would:

1. Frame the shot
2. Put the card infront of the camera.
3. Meter the greycard.
4. Take the picture with the settings the greycard provide.

Is that the correct procedure?

[berrywise]

So to use these, I would:

1. Frame the shot
2. Put the card infront of the camera.
3. Meter the greycard.
4. Take the picture with the settings the greycard provide.

Is that the correct procedure?

First I would place the card in the area that you want to take a photo of. Try have the same light hitting the card that would best represent the area you are photgraphing. Meter off the card. Then go setup your shot and take the photo using the readings you metered. Next bracket your shot by adjusting your shutter speed (you could also substitue adjusting your f-stop but it sounded like you wanted to shoot at f32 so I would rather adjust shutter sped) above and below what you metered to make sure you get the proper exposure. Sounds like a lot work but really can be done quite quickly. Especailly since the landscape won't be moving on you ;

[another view]

Is that the correct procedure?

Yes - that's it but Berrywise's point about making sure that the card is in the right light is absolutely important. The color of tree bark is pretty close to the tonality of a grey card - as is green grass, caucasian skin is about one stop brighter, etc.

A good exercise would be to take your spot meter and grey card, and put the card in front of a lot of different objects. Figure out what the grey card meters at (this is what the spot meter is assuming - that it's a mid-tonality subject) and then spot meter the object (rock, tree, fire hydrant, etc) and see how much different it is. Pretty soon you'll be at the point that you'll know by looking at something if it's a middle grey, 2/3 stop brighter or a stop darker. That way you can be really quick with a spot meter and base your exposure on several readings.

The sky will be much, much brighter than the inside of a canyon early in the morning or late in the afternoon/evening (we actually do have a couple of small ones around here!). It will be bright enough that it will probably be beyond what the film can record - but you can check that with your spot meter!

[yoyo123]

How would you meter over an area like a creek or river where you could not physically get to the other side?

Also, what if you are under a grove of trees or in a shaded area but the object is inaccessible and lit by a lot of sunlight?

Sorry to sound like a broken record ;)

[another view]

Bring waders! No, seriously - this is why it's good to be able to use a spot meter without a grey card. Practice with the spot meter like I suggested and you'll be in good shape.

[92135011]

well print film has bout +/- 4 stops or so leeway, so what you will need to do is to use a spot meter and find the brightest and dimmest. If the range exists within 4-5 stops or something, then you can find something closer to the middle range and make a shot. Of course, you should also bracket +/- 1stop for print film for any critical work anyways. Have fun ^_^

Oh yeah, you can also fix up your prints afterward with a "flash" of white light! New trick I learned (never tried it though)

[another view]

what you will need to do is to use a spot meter and find the brightest and dimmest

Just realize that any reflected light meter (the one in your camera, a regular hand-held or a spot meter) takes it's measurement assuming that you're pointing it at a "middle grey" subject.

If you're pointing it at something white, it will see it as grey, and therefore will underexpose it. You'll need to add in compensation for this (maybe two stops of overexposure but experiment - depends on the subject, how the film records it, etc). If it's something dark or black, it will be overexposed so you'll need to do just the opposite.

[yoyo123]

Wouldn't averaging the brightest and darkest spots give me an accurate estimate on the correct exposure then?

[92135011]

thats true AV. I was using the assumption that yoyo was shooting landscape stuff. Now since most landscape is not 100% white nor 100% black, it will work for starters. The sky is never really important so keep the sky out of the metering for now. For now just get the rest of it right. Plus bracketing will solve almost all problems anyways. maybe you even want to keep a log on the shutter and aperture you use.

It's either that...or you can buy a graduated neutral density filter. That should work you wonders

[yoyo123]

Cool. I have been getting in the habit of keeping a log already

So tomorrow I'll try metering the lightest and darkest areas of the frame. Then I will bracket + and - 1 full stop. Hopefully that'll solve some of my problems.


I have one more question before I let everyone go.
In a situation where you have A LOT of light, could you use a Neutral Density Filter to decrease the amount of light? Then do the same thing as above with metering the lightest/darkest, and bracketing?

[another view]

ND filters will cut all of the light (and shouldn't affect colors) by whatever factor the filter is. They're useful if there's too much light to get the effect you want - for example, you want a long shutter speed because there's a stream running thru the shot and you want that silky look to it, but you can only get down to a 1/30 shutter speed. Put on a 2-stop ND and you'll have 1/8 which will look a lot different than 1/30.

As far as metering goes, I think you're reading too much into it. Think of the world in black and white. Middle grey tones would be things like a nice green lawn, tree bark, some rocks - a lot of things. This is what the meter sees. Lighter tonalities like snow, light colored rocks, dried grasses or a blue sky will still be read by the meter as middle grey. This means that the meter reading will be underexposed by a certain amount (exactly how much takes a little practice to figure out). The tonality, not color is the key here. Tonality is how light or dark - again like you would see in a b&w print.

The meter sees everything as middle grey. Best use of the spot meter is to understand this, then think about the object you're pointing the meter at and decide how much over or under middle grey it is. Then take that into account. Say your blue sky reads 1/125 at f11. It's a light tonality so we'll open up one stop. That means we set the camera at 1/125 at f8 or 1/60 at f11.

It's best to pick the most important area of the photograph and base your meter reading on it, whether it's a rock, tree or whatever. Once you know what you want there, then check a couple other areas in the frame and you'll see how they will show up on the film (OK, this area is two stops brighter, this area three stops darker).

Knowing what your film can handle is the next step in really mastering this. Three stops under (in my example above) would be solid black with slide film, but would still show detail in negative film.

This is a very simplified version of Ansel Adams' Zone System. Bracketing won't help you learn, but it's an insurance policy. Try to not rely on it (however, film is cheap...). Eventually you'll get to the point that you can take only one shot and will know how it will look before you take the shot.

[another view]

Got an idea. Post one of your shots (doesn't have to be perfect, it's the Help forum, not Critique ) and I'll show you how I would have metered it with a spot meter.

[Casauras]

Not sure if any one is still reading these posts but I have something that may help with metering. I Picked up a book by Charles Campbell called The Backpack's Photography Handbook . In the book he has shown how to meter when a card isn't available or if you don't want to cary one. His web site talks about it and if needed you can buy cards from his web site to help you in the fieled. http://www.photonaturalist.com/
It's helped me even without buying his cards and just reading the book.
Chris

[92135011]

AV I said a grad ND
Those do NOT cut off light all around.
Typically speaking, landscapes have the biggest problem with sky. A graduated ND works wonders

[another view]

Yeah you did - I missed that. I was replying to the original poster's reply just after that where he said ND, not grad ND. Guess he missed it too. And a grad ND would be a very good thing to have.

[Sebastian]

Are you looking at the negatives or the prints? If looking at the prints, then you are looking at something that was automatically adjusted by the machine that printed it. Looking at the negs/slides is the ONLY way to see if the shadow detail is there or not. Looking at the prints will negate any advantages of bracketing as well, since the machine will more than likely adjust all the images to look roughly the same, whatever it considers to be "correct."

[Mr.U]

there is some good advise here

[yoyo123]

Firstly, Thanks for everyone's comments. Yesterday, I went back to Boulder Creek and took one roll at various places and times of the day. This is one of them:

Unfortunately, I have to use the prints to base my exposure results on, and according to Sebastian I am pretty much screwed as far as getting the "perfect exposure" ;) Hehe.

Anyway, the picture below was set to:
F22
1/2 second exposure time
+1 Stop Exposure
28 mm lens
No Filters on the lens (It was pretty dark and rainy yesterday).

Comments?

[Michael Fanelli]

Firstly, Thanks for everyone's comments. Yesterday, I went back to Boulder Creek and took one roll at various places and times of the day. This is one of them:

Unfortunately, I have to use the prints to base my exposure results on, and according to Sebastian I am pretty much screwed as far as getting the "perfect exposure" ;) Hehe.

Anyway, the picture below was set to:
F22
1/2 second exposure time
+1 Stop Exposure
28 mm lens
No Filters on the lens (It was pretty dark and rainy yesterday).

Comments?

Could be the scan, but your image looks blurry. I hope you didn't try to handhold at 1/2 second!

[yoyo123]

I used my tripod to steady the camers. I don't have the greatest scanner, so the blurriness you are seeing could be that. Other than that, any other comments?

[another view]

Sebastian made a very good point. I guess usually I'm thinking about slide film with stuff like this so that thought didn't cross my mind. With neg film, you have more latitude as it is, so exposure isn't quite so critical. And the lab will interpret the negs when making the prints however they want - take the same neg to 10 different labs and you'll get 10 different looking prints. Heck, take the same neg back to the same lab a couple days later and you'll probably see a difference (unless they're really good and used to printing stuff like this).

I'm not looking at this on a calibrated monitor so I don't know exactly how it looks - also don't have photoshop here to make notes on it, but the light is pretty contrasty. An overcast day will really make a shot like this come out better because the light is soft. That's how shots in the Sierra Club calendar, etc are done.

What I would have done with a spot meter would be to first look for a "neutral grey". There's a lot of foliage and that will do it. All of it (except off in the background where it's in different light) should read pretty similar, the differences just in the color and how much light one color of green reflects versus another (once again, overcast day will help). Then I'd look at a few other things like the rocks at the bottom of the frame near center - they look like they should read about one stop brighter (lighter color, reflects more light). The water just upstream (left) of the rapids looks like about a +1 too.

That's how I'd want it to look in the finished image (print, scan, etc) so I'd shoot at the value of the green foliage as long as the areas I thought would be +1 turned out to be pretty close to that. There are usually some differences from point to point but that's the advantage of the spot meter - as much info as you want!

If your camera has a Center-Weighted meter, you were wise to put in a +1 compensation to your exposure because the center of the shot is much brighter than middle grey (which as you know is what the meter measures for). Some cameras have CW as well as spot and an evaluative Matrix meter built in. What camera did you use?