Another question

[Candice]

I was playing around in Manual Mode and changed my ISO setting and my white balance setting and my picture ended up like this to see if it got better in taking pictures in dark setting. The pictures turned out all noisy.

I put the ISO on 800 it was on Auto. Is this usually what happens when you change that? What a shame.. it was such a great picture of her

[livin4lax09]

it shouldn't... what kind of camera is this? Check out the link, those are shot with ISO 1600

thoughts?

it definitely shouldnt be that noisy.

[Candice]

I turned the ISO back on auto and I got the first photo.. when I increased the flash it was too bright and this photo looks too dark

The second photo is on AUTO. It is so much brighter.

The third photo is of the camera on AUTO with the flash decreased ONE. I think that one looks the best.

[Candice]

Wow your pictures are great!

I am taking pictures with a Sony DSC V3.

[trog100]

livin4 isnt and with anything other than a DSLR at ISO 800 it really should be that noisy.. its more of a gimmick than anything else.. he he.. 200 will still produce noticable noise.. anything over is best left for emergency last resort any picture being better than no picture situations..

your parrot pictures are quite good if u are useing the cameras inbuilt flash.. the thrid one is best.. the second seems to have lost the plot completely (assuming its the same parrot.. he he) with its colour balance and u will also notice the highlight burn out around the birds eyes.. have u found the contrast setting yet..??

slight under exposure is better than slight over exposure.. with an under exposed shot the detail is still there. and can be brought back with some out of camera tweaks.. if it burns out its gone for ever..

expect problems with any white areas and slightly under expose if possible..

nah.. that second one must be a different parrot..he he he

trog100

ps.. u really need to be able to read the exif information your camera saves when it takes a picture on auto.. this tells u what settings the cameras has used.. if u dont have software that will do it.. download a piece of freeware called irfanview.. view your images in that and it will tell u..

[Candice]

*laughing* yes it is the same bird in the same room just different setting on the camera

Oh, The contrast after the flast setting next to the saturation & sharpness. I didn't get to that yet.. will try that next

ps.. u really need to be able to read the exif information your camera saves when it takes a picture on auto.. this tells u what settings the cameras has used.. if u dont have software that will do it.. download a piece of freeware called irfanview.. view your images in that and it will tell u..

What does exif information your camera saves when it takes a picture on auto mean?

[trog100]

here are two examples of the information recorded when a picture is taken.. the first one is from a toshiba mr700.. the second a fuji 5000.. both smallish 10 x zoom cameras..

i will highltight certain parts.. a lot looks like gobble-de-gook.. but the important bits u need to know can be decyphered..


##########



File: - C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\100TOSHI\PDR_0278.JPG

ImageDescription - Exif JPEG
Make - TOSHIBA
Model - PDR-M700
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - DSC PDR-M700 Ver1.10
DateTime - 2005:02:13 16:01:25
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 248
ExposureTime - 1/170 seconds... ####### this one is the shutte speed the camera used.. ######
FNumber - 4.50 ######## this one the lense opening.. #########
ExposureProgram - Normal program ###### this says no scene mode ########
ISOSpeedRatings - 70 ##### the ISO setting the camera used.. #######
ExifVersion - 220
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:02:13 16:01:25
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:02:13 16:01:25
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/169 seconds
ApertureValue - F 4.44
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Center weighted average
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 5.80 mm
FlashPixVersion - 100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 2048
ExifImageHeight - 1536
InteroperabilityOffset - 794
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
WhiteBalance - Auto
DigitalZoomRatio - 0.00 x
FocalLengthIn35mmFilm - 37 mm ####### how much.. if any.. optical zoom u have used.. #####
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Contrast - Soft ##### what contrast setting u have the camera set at.. ########
Saturation - Normal
Sharpness - Normal


#########

File: - C:\WINDOWS\Desktop\Test-pics\winter-boating\100_FUJI\DSCF2144.JPG

Make - FUJIFILM
Model - FinePix S5000
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
Software - Digital Camera FinePix S5000 Ver3.00
DateTime - 2005:01:07 01:55:43
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
Copyright -
ExifOffset - 252
ExposureTime - 10/6800 seconds
FNumber - 6.30
ExposureProgram - Normal program
ISOSpeedRatings - 200
ExifVersion - 220
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:01:07 01:55:43
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:01:07 01:55:43
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 3.00 (bits/pixel)
ShutterSpeedValue - 1/676 seconds
ApertureValue - F 6.28
BrightnessValue - 8.64
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Auto
Flash - Not fired, compulsory flash mode
FocalLength - 45.60 mm
FlashPixVersion - 100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 1280
ExifImageHeight - 960
InteroperabilityOffset - 1104
FocalPlaneXResolution - 2405
FocalPlaneYResolution - 2405
FocalPlaneResolutionUnit - Centimeter
SensingMethod - One-chip color area sensor
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
SceneType - A directly photographed image
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Auto
WhiteBalance - Manual
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Sharpness - Normal
SubjectDistanceRange - Unknown

Maker Note (Vendor): -
Version - 30333130
Quality - NORMAL
Sharpness - Normal
White Balance - Auto
Color saturation - Normal
Flash Mode - Off
Flash Strength - 0.00
Macro - Off
Focus mode - Auto
Slow Sync. - Off
Picture Mode - Program AE
Unknown - 1
Sequence mode - Off
Unknown - 0
Blur warning - No
Focus warning - No (Focus OK)
AE warning - No (AE good)

######

these things different from camera to camera in exactly how they are laid out.. and some give more info than others.. the fuji tells u the camera had its focus lock for exmaple i dont think the toshiba does..

basically by looking at this info u can get a good idea of how the camera behaves and also a good idea of what tweaks are needed if any..

trog100

ps.. this info is always saved by the way not just in auto.. its just that it does help with finding out just why certain cameras make a pigs ear of certain pictures.. and also when u think user tweaks or manual might be needed.. auto is good and if u have a good idea of when it needs a little help its even better...

[Candice]

Okay I will download that program and try it out.

Here is a picture I took today messing with the setting more.


I don't think it is too bright or too dark at all.

So you have to adjust the setting all the time? What do you do take a test picture to test them out?

[trog100]

he he he.. hard not to take a nice picture with such a subject...

i think that one is about right.. at first it looked a little dark to me but that depends on how your monitor is set.. .mine is set on the dark side.. so its about right.. pictures being set against the white-ish forum background also make them look a liltler darker than they really are..

u dont really have to adjust the setting every time.. play with your camera and see what results it produces.. learn when it might need a little help such as minus or plus EV..

and taking test pictures.. well yes if possible.. if u only get one try use the burst mode or exposure bracketing.. i think u have a pretty good idea of the desired end result... he he

exposure bracketing will tell whether your camera has a tendancy to under or over expose.. burst mode is good for any subject thats likely to move while u are taking your shot..

take lots of pictures junk the bad ones and keep the ones u like.. thats the joy of digital.. at one time only a proffessional could afford to do that now everybody can..

trog100

[EOSThree]

It looks like you are well on you way to becoming a photographer, and not a picture taker. The first shot is very noisy, but that is typical of what you can expect with a point and shoot type camera. You might want to try a program such as Noise Ninja: http://www.picturecode.com/ or Neat Image: http://www.neatimage.com/
I disagree with Trog on reducing your contrast to compensate for the limitations of your sensor. Sensor limitations just "are" and every sensor(or film) has them. There is only so much light your "film" can hold. Your eyes are constantly adjusting their aperture and can render a scene with a much higher dynamic range than your camera can. You as the photographer has to learn to work within the limitations of your film(sensor)and "move" the exposure to get the result you desire. In other words, you have to decide whether you want to let your highlights blow out, or let the darkest shadows go black, or add light(flash)to bring the highlights and shadows closer together. Trog is right about it being better to preserve the hightlights, it is always easier to pull details out of the shadows, but once something is blown out, the detail is lost forever.

[trog100]

eosthree.. i think its to do with that "bias" u mentioned in an earlier post...

some cameras tend to preserve the highlight some the shadows.. u mention noticing a difference between canon and sony in this respect.. i think the contrast adjustment enables the user to alter this "bias".. or at least alter the difference between light and dark areas of the picture.. low contrast would tend to turn down the highlights and turn up the shadows leaving the mid range about the same.. assuming the camera actually does this in a logical way.. a more simple method would be to just turn down the highlights.. hard to say just how these cameras work exactly..

u are perectly right about a camera having a limitted dynamic range and nothing will extend this.. it just is.. it also sounds like turning the contrast down is adding to the problem.. he he.. but it does seem to help as regards the highlight burn out problem.. taken to far of course it would produce a washed out image with too little diference between highs and lows..

my own oppinions might well be a little biased toward what i think is "happening" with this particular setting rather than what really is "happening" also.. subjectivety plays a part in most things.. he he

highlight burn out is one of my major gripes.. anything i think helps avoid it i will try..

trog100

ps.. i also think lots of things are becoming possible with digtal technology that were just not possible with film.. hopefully the ability to turn down highlights and so preserve them whilst at the same time lightening up those shadows without the need for all that extra lighting being one of them.. or am i dreaming.. he he

[EOSThree]

I always use the histogram to check my exposure when I have the time to do so. The histogram is an incredible tool as it allows you to bias your exposure toward what you are trying to acheive in almost real time. http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...stograms.shtml
And I like to have my blinking highlights turned on to see where my blown highlights are, and if I can live with them.
The histogram gives me an excellent picture of my exposure, and the blinking highlights let me know if I can live with some of the blown out areas or not. Ie. my histogram may show some clipping along the right side, but if I look at the white blinkers, and find they are only in the middle of some of the clouds, I will usually let them go if I am happy with the rest of the exposure.
The reason I hesitate to recommend turning down contrast is you usually end up with a softer image, and you will compress some of the dynamic range of the scene you are trying to render. And that could, if over done, lead to a dull greyish photo. With lower contrast you aren't adjusting the "bias" of the exposure, but you reducing the differences between the light and dark areas in the photo. I guess compressing it is better than not getting the image at all, but I still use exposure compensation to "move" my exposure changing the "bias" of the metering to achieve the best result within the confines of my media.
I too hope that the future will produce a sensor with something like a smart graduated ND filter built in, where you could turn down the blown out highlights to increase the over all range of the sensor. From what I have heard though from those smarter than I, is this is difficult if not impossible to do. With the electronics, vs. silver halide I still hold hope that this will be possible some day.

[trog100]

nice article.. the one u linked to...


use balanced fill flash on the foreground

use a graduated neutral density filter

take multiple exposures and merge them digitally

go home

for landscapes i am heavily into number two.. the kokin slide up and down and twizzle around variety.. one stays permanently on the end of my outdoor camera.. if i think it isnt needed i simply slide it upwards.. he he..

i think i am a little too lazy to make a good photographer.. and i will have to make use of those histograms more..

trog100

[Candice]

Thank you two for you comments.. it will take me a while to understand

I did however turn on my histogram and I notice a large bar toward the right a lot. Not all the way to the right tough but toward the right.

Here is a picture I took today and here is the info taken from that program on it:
File: - D:\Candice5\February19th2005#11.jpg

ImageDescription -
Make - SONY
Model - DSC-V3
Orientation - Top left
XResolution - 72
YResolution - 72
ResolutionUnit - Inch
DateTime - 2005:02:19 16:39:52
YCbCrPositioning - Co-Sited
ExifOffset - 215
ExposureTime - 1/30 seconds
FNumber - 4.00
ExposureProgram - Manual control
ISOSpeedRatings - 100
ExifVersion - 0220
DateTimeOriginal - 2005:02:19 15:39:05
DateTimeDigitized - 2005:02:19 15:39:05
ComponentsConfiguration - YCbCr
CompressedBitsPerPixel - 8 (bits/pixel)
ExposureBiasValue - 0.00
MaxApertureValue - F 2.83
MeteringMode - Multi-segment
LightSource - Other
Flash - Flash fired, compulsory flash mode, red-eye reduction mode, return light detected
FocalLength - 11.80 mm
FlashPixVersion - 0100
ColorSpace - sRGB
ExifImageWidth - 3072
ExifImageHeight - 2304
InteroperabilityOffset - 2239
FileSource - DSC - Digital still camera
SceneType - A directly photographed image
CustomRendered - Normal process
ExposureMode - Manual
WhiteBalance - Manual
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Contrast - Soft
Saturation - High
Sharpness - Normal

Maker Note (Vendor): -



Can you tell my looking at that and the picture what I am doing wrong? Why this one turned out dark? (What do I need to change? Because I have tired the flash and then it goes to bright I have tired the contrast saturation it again goes bright..)

I hope I don't sound so stupid with all my questions I did buy some books and they should be here soon.

[EOSThree]

That one looks exposed pretty well. She looks exposed slightly on the dark side, but with all of that light colored stuff around her that's to be expected. This is where a spot meter might help, I don't know if your camera has one though. You said you had some bars on the histogram toward the right side that is fine, you just don't want it to go beyond the right side. Here is another article by Michael Reichmann: http://www.luminous-landscape.com/tu...se-right.shtml
Flash photography with a point and shoot camera is difficult to get to look natural, the front mounted flash mounted so close to the lens will tend to overpower your subject.

[DownByFive]

Can you tell my looking at that and the picture what I am doing wrong? Why this one turned out dark? (What do I need to change? Because I have tired the flash and then it goes to bright I have tired the contrast saturation it again goes bright..)

I hope I don't sound so stupid with all my questions I did buy some books and they should be here soon.

I actually think this picture is well exposed. It shows up perfectly on my monitor, but it will probably vary from one person to the next. If you wanted it a little brighter, you could use a slightly larger aperture, or brighten it up a little with an image editor.

[trog100]

candice its a very nice picture.. slightly dark possibly but better for it..i think its more a question of what u are doing thats "unusual" rather than wrong.. the pictures u are posting are rather good.. he he

u have a very low shutter speed.. 1/30 of a second...

a lense opening of F/4

an ISO of 100

u seem to be in fill flash mode with the camera set on manual...

ExposureMode - Manual
WhiteBalance - Manual
SceneCaptureType - Standard
Contrast - Soft
Saturation - High
Sharpness - Normal

now.. has that very nice picture appeared by accident or do u know more about this than we do... he he he

keep em coming they are cute..

trog100

ps.. the flash on your camera is doing a better job than it should by the way.. apart from the little twinkle in the animals eye it looks to me like one isnt being used..

[Candice]

Here are a few more pictures I took yesterday. Is that what you are talking about by shadowing?

Also I was going to ask you about why when I resize my pictures look funny....But... I am working my my husband computer and using the same program, PSP 9, and it isn't doing it.. odd.. I think I will start using PS or PSP 8 for resizing if that helps. I just think it is odd because I have done all my update for PSP 9 and have quite a few problems with it. And now I come over to my husbands computer.. same program and he doesn't have the problem

[trog100]

i use psp 9 for editing and irfanview for simple viewing and resizing.. irfanview is a complex piece of software it has to be set correctly.. there are many resizing and viewing options .. some based on speed some on quality..

psp has improved dramatically over the years and is now a very complex piece of software indeed.. i use it in preference to photoshop.. but its best avoided unless to u really need its complexity.. irfanview and psp 9 complement each other very nicley.. one for the quick and simple stuff like viewing and resizing one for the real deal editing..

when u resize something useing irfanview u have to select resample and use the lanczos filter if u want the best quality..

for viewing fullscreen (irfanview) which is how i look at images that i dont want to look at too closely u have to select resample as well.. if u simply resize any image without resampling the quality is poor..

the exposure on the parrot is good.. all the detail around the eyes has been preserved.. the resizing looks poor.. learn how to do it properly.. he he

trog100

[Candice]

What is the correct way to resize?

[trog100]

when u resize something useing irfanview u have to select resample and use the lanczos filter if u want the best quality..

i was a little harsh about the parrot being poorly resized.. i looked at the shading around its eyes.. it looked blotchy.. but with hindsight (errr a closer look) i now think "feathers" do change colour that abruptly.. he he

all this software has many settings.. like "resize".. a simply resize produces lego bricks.. a resampled and filtered resize smooths it all out and makes it look pretty..

i noticed u had the camera on auto with aperture priority with that last one also.. u picked F4 the camera picked 10/500 which is really 1/50 of a second.. a bit faster than the 1/30 u picked with the little furry animal one..

trog100

ps... candice having looked back at your picures and the exif info.. i have come to one conclusion.. your camera has a rather clever built in flash.. whatever u randomly do.. it undoes.. u up the F/number it turns its power down.. u up the ISO it acts accordingly.. u are at the mercy of it.. luckily its doing a grand job... he he

[Candice]

Here is what I was talking about all distorted.. the first picture was resized in PSP 9 on my computer.. the second on PS on my computer.
Can you tell me what setting are wrong on my PSP?

[trog100]

well they are quite clearly "different".. which one is nearer the original i have no way of knowing..

i have a simpler approach here.. stop trying to use two very complex pieces of software that can take months if not years to learn.. both being entirely different in how they are set up not helping..

use irfanview for resizing.. its faster quicker and easier.. click on image.. select resize/resample.. select the size u wish the image to be.. tick resample and use the laczos filter..

640 x 480-ish with a 75k-ish jpg size should be roughly okay for web posting..

irfanview will also batch resize..

trog100