A little rant about critiques

[trog100]

it has been said that opinions are like ass-holes.. everybody has one..

which does kinda devalue them somewhat.. i love forums and have spent lots of time on them over the past few years.. i thought all the answers to all the questoned could easily be answered..

but i am becoming disillusioned with them mainly because of the "consensus" opinion thing that drives most of them..

some guy asks a simple question he gets five different answers.. one answer might well be the only correct answer but the need to remain friendly and the consensus opinion factor will always guarantee that the correct answer is lost amonst the dross..

sadly the dross by far outnumber the quality.. any attempt to prove the dross to be what it is will result in alienation by consensus and the fun soon goes out of it.. to be right too often isnt allowed.. even if u are.. he he

as oscar wilde was known to have said.. "the majority.. apart from being right.. is invariably wrong"..

forums are all about the majority and keeping the majority happy.. and the majority all have an ass-hole and an opinion..

perhaps the internet is just another reiteration of gods tower of babel curse..

trog

[Trevor Ash]

Many people don't want a critique, they want to be praised. Too much butt kissing on the critique forums. Many are too sensitive and/or defensive to listen to critiques unless they are written in the most eloquent and tactful way possible. I'm not going to spend 30 minutes writing up a critique when some other poster that didn't even post the original photo will call my critique rubbish and tell the original photographer not to listen to others, etc, blah blah.

Not everyone is like this, but there's enough of it that I don't bother too much any more.

[mtbbrian]

How about we talk about some solutions here, instead of talking about the problem.
What can be done so that people are more willing to give better critiques?
Brian

[poker]

How about we talk about some solutions here, instead of talking about the problem.
What can be done so that people are more willing to give better critiques?
Brian

The PR website could come up with a built in 'judge by numbers' for photos submitted for critique. The tool will will be based on a few basic concepts and all one has to do it pick a number on a scale. No need to type and it's more simple yet more productive than saying, "I like it, it's nice."

It's would be questions based on "RULES" of course.

I know. I know. Technical modifications to the site are easier said than done.

[mtbbrian]

The PR website could come up with a built in 'judge by numbers' for photos submitted for critique. The tool will will be based on a few basic concepts and all one has to do it pick a number on a scale. No need to type and it's more simple yet more productive than saying, "I like it, it's nice."

It's would be questions based on "RULES" of course.

I know. I know. Technical modifications to the site are easier said than done.

I for one, and I believe John feels the same way, have never liked any kind of rating format.
I feel that by giving a rating it makes things even worse.
For one, it's easier than actually saying something constructive and two you'll have people who will be number obessed.
Brian

[poker]

I for one, and I believe John feels the same way, have never liked any kind of rating format.
I feel that by giving a rating it makes things even worse.
For one, it's easier than actually saying something constructive and two you'll have people who will be number obessed.
Brian

Very possible. Having both shouldn't hurt. Those who are inclined to give a substantial critque will post regardless. Those at a loss for words will click the scale. Its might be good or bad.

A good example is the Gallery section. There is a place to post a critique and score. As we all know the scoring part is barely used at all in the Gallery. Oh well, scratch that idea :idea:

[mtbbrian]

Very possible. Having both shouldn't hurt. Those who are inclined to give a substantial critque will post regardless. Those at a loss for words will click the scale. Its might be good or bad.

A good example is the Gallery section. There is a place to post a critique and score. As we all know the scoring part is barely used at all in the Gallery. Oh well, scratch that idea :idea:

I have seen that on other forums and it ultimately turns in to a numbers game, and that does no good whatsoever.
Criticism involves thoughts and ideas not numbers.
Brian
:thumbsup:

[poker]

How about we talk about some solutions here, instead of talking about the problem.
What can be done so that people are more willing to give better critiques?
Brian

The Critique forum should have a link to easily show a list of all the zero critiques at one click. I've occasionally looked for zero critique photos and try to make a fair opinion. I do it hoping some would do the same for my zero critique photos.

[poker]

One more thing....

Photos with ZERO critiques

Let's start practicing what we are 'trying' to preach. Click on the link and give a decent critique to a zero reply. There's only about 300 post going back to 2004. Should be easy. I DARE YOU!!!!!!! : D

[Greg McCary]

I think that for ever picture you post you should critique five. I think that would cover it. I certainly don't think that it is a club. I have seen many newbies here lately and some have gotten featured photo.
Greg

[Mr Yuck]

I think that for ever picture you post you should critique five. I think that would cover it. I certainly don't think that it is a club. I have seen many newbies here lately and some have gotten featured photo.
Greg

Agreed, or maybe 3, since that number isnt so daunting and it's a lot better than just one.

I almost dug up a thread from last july yesterday that had 0 replies, but figured that would be confusing for the poster... "wait...I dont remember posting this"

One more thing....

Photos with ZERO critiques

Let's start practicing what we are 'trying' to preach. Click on the link and give a decent critique to a zero reply. There's only about 300 post going back to 2004. Should be easy. I DARE YOU!!!!!!! : D

Hehehe, dug up one from '04.

[mtbbrian]

Agreed, or maybe 3, since that number isnt so daunting and it's a lot better than just one.

That's a good strategy, I try to follow that myself at least one or two for eveyone I post.
Brian

[trog100]

"How about we talk about some solutions here, instead of talking about the problem.
What can be done so that people are more willing to give better critiques?
Brian"

befoe u can discuss things to do about a problem.. u have to get consensus agreement that there is a problem.. then u have to define the problem.. then the real work starts u have to get consensus opinion on the answer to the predefined problem..

the bottom line being that its all down to the "management".. there have been several "critiques" of the critique forum recently.. i think its time the "management" had look at it and made some alterations or not as they see fit..

my major problem is i dont even know what it is i am supposed to be commenting on.. a photograph in its simple terms or some piece of photoshop wizardry.. natural or supernatural.. realistic or simply eye catching.. he he

i personally have lost the plot here.. i am quite prepared to buck the consensus.. but too much boat rocking causes me problems.. i feel guilty.. he he

trog

[Greg McCary]

"

my major problem is i dont even know what it is i am supposed to be commenting on.. a photograph in its simple terms or some piece of photoshop wizardry.. natural or supernatural.. realistic or simply eye catching.. he he

i personally have lost the plot here.. i am quite prepared to buck the consensus.. but too much boat rocking causes me problems.. i feel guilty.. he he

trog

I for one welcome your critiques and hope you don't take your marbles and leave in a huff. I personally have learned from you and that is what I am here for. Because of you I think harder in the field to cut down as much PP as possible and my pictures have improved in quailty. I also hope you post more pictures. I remember most that I have seen. I have enjoyed looking at your work and have also learned from that too. I now own a grad filter thanks to you. I draw knowledge from all sources so I for one hope you hang around.
If you think back I for one have critiqued many of your pictures. I know where you are coming from but you have to remember that it is a critique forum and not a debate forum. Teach don't preach.
Greg

[F-15_Flyer]

What does it take to get a simple comment in the critique section?

This has happened to me several times now and to be honest it is quite disheartening as a hobbiest to post something that you really like and get no comments on it whatsoever....not even negative. Now I suppose I should simply accept it as no news is good news....but thats not the point of posting it for critique now is it?

I don't post pictures for critique often anymore because of the lack of comments I get. I now tend to stick to the nature forum or the sports forum as I do get comments there and they are always helpful regardless of whether they are negative or positive. When I honestly need an opinion of an image that doesn't fit in either of the above categories I have no where left to turn but the critique forum. Then I get nothing.

When I read the critique forum I will almost always post something that I like or dislike about the image that I am viewing. I am not a pro, never have claimed to be, most likely never will, but I do have 35 years of image processing skills due to the fact that my eyes have not stopped working for the entirity of my life. I know what it is that I like and dislike, and I have no problems telling someone. To be completely honest I think it is either rud or arrogant to not post a comment since that is what I have been asked to do by being there.

My feelings on critiques are very simple: tell the person your true feelings about it and why. If they don't like my answer well hopefully they have seen anothier view point that may make them approach the subject a little differently next time. If not well then maybe my opinion differs so greatly that I am way out of line with the rest of the world....well then, so be it.... can't say as I blame the rest of the world.

Remember when you are looking at the critique forum that the people on the other side of the world are asking you for your opinion, not necessarily your expertise, and your feelings about something that they have put a lot of time and effort into. Imagine how it feels to see your work posted and have no idea what anyone thinks about the image because no one said anything.

And lastly, keep shooting no matter what anyone says or doesn't say. If you had fun taking the image and it brings back a memory or a feeling of something special to you ... then don't worry about what someone said about it, snap shot or not it is your image and the feelings it brings back or the memories you have captured are still and weill always be yours to remember.

/rant off

I'd have to agree. Sometimes I'm not only dissapointed at the fact that some of my photos have no or little critiques, but at the fact that there are always at least a couple postswith no or 1 or 2 comments all the way down the page, or on the next page.

What I usually do when I'm in the critique forum is look at the amount of comments on all of the photos. If there are 0-5 comments in the topic, I'll post what I think. I won't even comment in topics with more then 10 unless I feel something strong about the photo and no one else has covered it.

Also, if I ever post images of my own, I'll make sure to make at least 5 critiques.

I NEVER let a topic with 0 comments go, if I see that on the page(and if I come here and 0 comment posts exist) i'll immediately go into it and post something helpful.

Ok, back to work!:thumbsup:

[trog100]

"a critique forum and not a debate forum. Teach don't preach"

u are getting near the mark greg.. it goes like this.. if i ever make any comment i am prepared to back it up.. i believe in arriving at something vaguely resembling the truth.. five different opinions will never arrive at the correct opinion.. five different critique opinions with no doscussion as to which is wrong or which is right achieves nothing..

its impossible for a wise man to teach if all the puplis feel free to contradict the teacher and consider their own opinion just as valid as the teachers..

i am speaking purely hyperthetically.. but in the critique forum the wisest teacher in the world might as well keep his mouth shut.. his teachings would soon be drowned out by the consensus opinions of the pupils..

everyone has opinions,, but some opinions are worth more than others.. without some discussion its impossible to ever find out which opinions have value and which dont...

everyone just being allowed to chuck in their two cents worth without having to back up their opinions is the road to chaos..

so some discussion is needed.. the only people who benefit by a no discussion rule are those with no substance behind their opinions and a complete inability to back them up.. the wise teacher gives up in disgust and goes home.. he he he

perhaps we dont need to give the images a value number.. perhaps its the critics we need to give a value number to..

i have offended enough forum members by not keeping my mouth shut.. i perhaps might have earned some respect by doing this but i have also earned some animosity.. at present i recon its about 50/50 between one and the other.. ..

trog

[Chunk]

"
everyone has opinions,, but some opinions are worth more than others.. without some discussion its impossible to ever find out which opinions have value and which dont...

This is an important point. Along with that we need to see photos by the people who are giving the opinions in order to be able to judge where they are coming from. I was recently happy to see a few pics from one of our more opinionated critiquors so folks can give the right amount of weight to his frequent opinions.

On the subject of not getting much response, I figure that I have a fairly successful shot if it doesn't get much attention. I don't have unlimited amounts of time for critiquing and usually only hit a few that have the most need for improvement and then if it's something different than the other critiquors have mentioned. I also comment on shots by friends that I've made here. I'm not going to apologize for that.

There are things that can be done to improve the chances of getting responses. Asking a specific question as you post is one. Having comparison shots is another. Polls can be popular and usually gather some comments too. I hope others will add to this list.

Another important thing in that forum is to acknowledge the effort that people put forth with your shots. It's surprising how many folks don't reply to suggestions made. Take a look at some of gahspidy's threads for a good example of how to do it. It's easy to comment on his photos because you know that it will be appreciated.

[another view]

Another important thing in that forum is to acknowledge the effort that people put forth with your shots. It's surprising how many folks don't reply to suggestions made. Take a look at some of gahspidy's threads for a good example of how to do it. It's easy to comment on his photos because you know that it will be appreciated.

Excellent point. If someone goes to the trouble to write a good critique but the suggestions aren't even acknowledged, that person may be less likely to write more critiques in the future. Eventually if this happens enough, well...

One of my pet peeves (about critiques in general, not here) is the photographer defending their work against any suggestions. I actually gave up on the local camera club because there was a fair amount of this going on - more there than here from what I've seen. One night, a bit of discussion developed (hey, a pun!) around a flower shot that may have been more interesting from a different angle. I agreed (silently) but the photographer explained all the reasons of why they couldn't do anything other than what they did rather than try to see what the person giving the critique was seeing. Obviously, that person wasn't looking for a critique but was looking for praise. Shouldn't have brought it on critique night...

Plenty of good suggestions have been already mentioned about how to improve critiques. Even if everyone can critique two for every one you post, there will be an improvement.

[Greg McCary]

One of my pet peeves (about critiques in general, not here) is the photographer defending their work against any suggestions.

Ditto on that, One should take the advise of the one critiqueing and move on. Everyone is intitled to their opinion. I have seen threads go round and round like a dog chasing his tail.
Greg

[drg]

One of my pet peeves (about critiques in general, not here) is the photographer defending their work against any suggestions. I actually gave up on the local camera club because there was a fair amount of this going on - more there than here from what I've seen. . . . Obviously, that person wasn't looking for a critique but was looking for praise.

Prior to responding to the above quote, I'll say there has been lots of fascinating discussion in this post that I aim to add to or comment on later this evening!

Critique in any form does need acknowledgement I will certain agree. But in the formal sense of critique a 'defense' is one manner of response. That does not mean disagreeing with or ignoring the comments offered, but it may require that an additional piece of information be added so that the decision process that went into the photograph is clearer.

Journalistic photography almost all falls into that category, but its 'defense' or explanation is inherent in both style and that invariably it has a caption.

A good critique should weigh both the positive and negative aspects and in doing so hopefully will provide suggestions for improvement of failings of the image, and compliment and highlight the strengths in the piece under review. Praise and concern go hand in hand to build a good set of comments and lead to an effective critique.

Frequently the second part of critique is missed and confusion reigns that critical criticism is only negative and harsh.

I've got to get back to work!!

[another view]

Critique in any form does need acknowledgement I will certain agree. But in the formal sense of critique a 'defense' is one manner of response. That does not mean disagreeing with or ignoring the comments offered, but it may require that an additional piece of information be added so that the decision process that went into the photograph is clearer.

And I agree that this is sometimes the case - journalism is a good example of that. My frustration is from the people who ask for a critique but really only want a pat on the back. With the example of the flower, it may be slightly difficult to get that different angle. You may get wet or dirty. You may have to come back later hoping for better light while the rest of the group eats dinner. Many of us understand how this works, and that every time you pick up a camera everything won't come together for an great shot.

I think part of the problem is that the person taking the shot may have been having a great time while out photographing, and they're not separating the tangible photograph from the intangible memory of that day. It's like constructive criticism on the shot is degrading their whole experience, but one really doesn't have anything to do with the other.

[livin4lax09]

One of my pet peeves (about critiques in general, not here) is the photographer defending their work against any suggestions. I actually gave up on the local camera club because there was a fair amount of this going on - more there than here from what I've seen. One night, a bit of discussion developed (hey, a pun!) around a flower shot that may have been more interesting from a different angle. I agreed (silently) but the photographer explained all the reasons of why they couldn't do anything other than what they did rather than try to see what the person giving the critique was seeing. Obviously, that person wasn't looking for a critique but was looking for praise. Shouldn't have brought it on critique night...

Yes, this is always a problem. I won't pretend I haven't done it, because I can think of more than one occasion where I have, and I think most others can as well. While egoism is the most obvious answer, hear me out on this theory. I think one of the main factors that lead to this defensive reaction is uncertainty about your shot and skills. Most talented photographers know to take comments with a grain of salt, but if something pops out at you, then take it and run with it. But at the same time they do not jump on someone for saying they don't like it, because many of the best photographers out there have plenty of people who don't like their work, and I think that this is where experience plays a part. Many people will just react that way before they come to the realization that photography (in my opinion) is meant to provoke emotion, and that people's emotional reactions are different. therefore, some people will like it, and some people won't, and that's just that. Many people think that everyone should like their work when that just isn't the case. And at the same time, you may be the only one who likes your work, but that doesn't mean you should stop doing it just because of negative reactions that you are getting. Live your life for yourself because if you live it for other people, what life are you going to have when those people finally disappear?

[trog100]

to be blunt none of us in the real world would ask a fool for advice..

in a critique forum where anyone can have their say with equal rights.. we are pretty much doing just that.. a fools paradise.. hey..

sadly the entire internet forum world is becoming just that.. a bunch of "happy" bunnies" all blathering away at the top of their voices and drowning out any vestige of wisdom..

try and point out the fool or precocious child for what he is and the whole bunch of "happy bunnies" come down on u like tons of bricks..

a bleak picture but after many years of forum activity its how i see things..

a modern day Tower of Babel aint so far out.. he he he

trog

[Greg McCary]

I agree that a little defense could be in order, If someone states the your picture is cropped to tight, they are unaware of distractions or difficult lighting. That being said I feel that some here belittle the critiquer letting them know of their inexperiance.
Greg

[trog100]

perhaps we should arrive at what we should be looking for..

my main points would be..

an eye for what makes a good picture..

good framing.. good composition..

artistic merit..

technical expertise..

overall image quality..

difficulty of obtaining the shot in the first place..

suitability for the shots intended purpose..

allowance should be made for the nature of the shot.. candid or carefully contrived..

####

my main negatives..

mickey mouse crops and overall poor image quality.. good for nothing except postage stamp sized critique posting

too much reliance on cropping in general..

too much reliance on post proccessing in general..

black and white used simply to add interest to an otherwise poor picture..

art being used to cover up poor photographic technque.. calling unacceptable digital noise "grain" for example..

###

my own bias cleary shows.. but just some ideas..

trog