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  1. #26
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    I just think there is a balance somewhere. I just don't like the word "Rules". I still prefer "technique". I agree level horizons, proper exposer and lighting ect, ect, need to be learned first. You guys take some of the most amazing pictures and I want to learn from you all.
    Maybe it's my rock and roll past that hates the word "rules". Jimi Hendrix broke many "rules" of the modern day guitarist of his time. But I also don't want to be a rubber stamp copy of Jimi when I play. I want to step outside the box and find my place as well. Photography and life is the same way. I want to find my own style.

  2. #27
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by payn817
    At some point, does it matter WHY you are carrying that camera?

    What you get out of photography isn't all about where to place objects, and such. There's many times when these things make a photo better, and the rules are useful. However, sometimes perhaps it isn't so much about the photo as the experience. Of course, then you're creating mediocre snapshots.

    For example, you hike all day, you wait, do your homework, and get to the right location at the right time, and your subject can't be found. Just when you are about to give up, you get the shot you came after. It's isn't technically great, but everyone does't have the subject in an image. It is still a snapshot, but you have challenged yourself, you have learned about your world, you have seen what many,many others may never see. Perhaps one of the last in existence.

    That goes off track some with where this thread seemed to be aimed. However, my point is still the same. Enjoy life, practice, know the rules, but in all of it, learn about yourself, your world, and bring home a piece to remember. If you hit it on the head, print it big and hang it, possibly sell it. If it sucks, you still got that experience, and learn how to do it better just in case there's a next time.
    Hey, Payne, considering the quality of your work, despite minor details, you really seem to be trying to s_t_r_e_t_c_h a positive spin to the point of breaking your credibility.

    Bottom line from reading the posts is that most beginners and enthusiasts are here to try and improve the quality of their photography. That means that they need encouragement and some guidelines in both technique and composition. That is certainly not accomplished by any one saying "Screw the rules", particularly when it is usually just an excuse to justify not paying attention to the many details necessary to create a great shot, or improve a mediocre one.

    Ronnoco
    Last edited by Ronnoco; 08-31-2006 at 06:03 AM.

  3. #28
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCary
    I just think there is a balance somewhere. I just don't like the word "Rules". I still prefer "technique". I agree level horizons, proper exposer and lighting ect, ect, need to be learned first. You guys take some of the most amazing pictures and I want to learn from you all.
    Maybe it's my rock and roll past that hates the word "rules". Jimi Hendrix broke many "rules" of the modern day guitarist of his time. But I also don't want to be a rubber stamp copy of Jimi when I play. I want to step outside the box and find my place as well. Photography and life is the same way. I want to find my own style.
    Well, technique tends to deal with technical issues and the rules of composition follow under the elements of design that apply to a number of artistic and design areas.

    The quote that I started off with: "You have to learn the rules in order to earn the right to break them." is one that in various ways is repeated by a lot of top pros, with their own style I might add. What that amounts to is there are steps to "finding your place" in photography.

    First you learn technique. You need to be able to handle the tools of your trade or art form before anything else and this can be a lifelong task since the technology and the tools are constantly changing. More than just learning technique, your technical decisions need to positively contribute to the effectiveness of your particular shot.

    Then you need to learn composition and attention to detail: making artistic decisions and organizing the visual elements in the shot. This is where individual style comes in but a photographer cannot make those decisions without an understanding of the elements of design and their visual effect.

    In finding your own "style", you need to realize that no compositional decision is "neutral"!
    If it does not contribute to the effectiveness of your photo and the impact of the centre of interest, then it detracts from it and is a weakness.

    Ignoring what you don't know leads to mediocre snapshots, definitely not good photographs with an individual style. To put it even more clearly, you need to know a lot about design and composition, in order to decide whether "violating a rule of composition" strengthens or weakens the quality and effectiveness of the shot. That is of course, if you are truly interested about both improving your photography and developing an individual style.

    Ronnoco
    Last edited by Ronnoco; 08-31-2006 at 06:00 AM.

  4. #29
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    I am here on these forums to learn. I have seen some of the most awesome pictures on here. Maybe it's my love of rock and roll is the reason that I don't like "rules". I understand that everyone needs to know as much as possible about exposer, lighting, DOF, flashes, lens, ect..ect..ect.. But sometimes in life we need to toss out the rules and fly by the seat of our pants. You will learn more and have more fun too. But I am watching and learning from all of you. You guys are good....

  5. #30
    Hardcore...Nikon Speed's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Creativity is allowing yourself to make mistakes. Art is knowing which ones to keep.

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  6. #31
    Senior Member payn817's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    I certainly agree with knowing these elements, and putting them to use to make an improvement on the images.

    I by no means just fire the shutter without trying to think of these elements, thinking it can be fixed later. A friend recently went on a trip, and their only concern was what the photos looked like. I think that was really what my rant was about, because some people try too hard, and never enjoy the experience. IMO, anyone that wants to be a better photographer has to love the total experience, and the subjects they're shooting.

    However, this is totally out of place in this thread, as I recently learned the purpose of your starting this thread, so it's time for me to get back to my little hole, and be quiet.

  7. #32
    Jedi Master masdog's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    Hey, Payne, considering the quality of your work, despite minor details, you really seem to be trying to s_t_r_e_t_c_h a positive spin to the point of breaking your credibility.

    Bottom line from reading the posts is that most beginners and enthusiasts are here to try and improve the quality of their photography. That means that they need encouragement and some guidelines in both technique and composition. That is certainly not accomplished by any one saying "Screw the rules", particularly when it is usually just an excuse to justify not paying attention to the many details necessary to create a great shot, or improve a mediocre one.

    Ronnoco
    Ronnoco, I think you've started taking this too far. So what if Sebastian posted a shot that broke every rule in the book? So what if he titled that thread "Screw the Rules?"

    Everyone here knows that you don't just go out with a camera and expect to break the rules if you're serious about photography. Then most of your stuff is snapshots.

    But photography isn't just about rules and technique, Ronnoco. Even if you know the rules, you can't always get a shot that follows all the rules of composition. That doesn't mean you don't have a good shot - as good is subjective to the one viewing the image.
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  8. #33
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Ronnoco,

    I have to question your seriousness on this boards. In an enviroment where deadlines are necesarry, perfect shots are a must, and following rules to a "t" is expected, than yes, knowing the rules is a must. But when I post on this forum, I don't expect to be razzed and given a lecture about the rules. Yes, I would like to know the rules, and yes, you can constructively provide them to somebody.

    But Ronnoco, please remind yourself we're on an internet forum. I am still searching to find a reason why someone who posted a rather humorous thread in VF and why you'd be opposed to it. Lighten up for crying out loud; it's not even in the critiquing forum. I also find it astonishing that you find it your duty to "enlighten" everyone on the board on how it should be run. Lighten up a little and stop feeling everything has to be run your way.

  9. #34
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    Ronnoco, I think you've started taking this too far. So what if Sebastian posted a shot that broke every rule in the book? So what if he titled that thread "Screw the Rules?".
    Well, the first point is that it was a weak shot! Maybe, perhaps "screwing the rules" had something to do with the poor result! Second point was as I said, that beginners and enthusiasts are taking these comments seriously even if they are said "tongue in cheek" by some pros.

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    Everyone here knows that you don't just go out with a camera and expect to break the rules if you're serious about photography. Then most of your stuff is snapshots..
    You know that and I know that, but some here have no idea what composition is, let alone the guidelines and "rules" related to the evaluation of photographic work.

    Quote Originally Posted by masdog
    But photography isn't just about rules and technique, Ronnoco. Even if you know the rules, you can't always get a shot that follows all the rules of composition. That doesn't mean you don't have a good shot - as good is subjective to the one viewing the image.
    No, masdog, you certainly can't always get the perfect shot, because of speed, location, weather, angle, interference from people and several other immediate problems that are not solvable. However I consider that the level of subjectivity by top, experienced professionals determining a good shot is rather minimal to say the least. You would certainly find this to be true if you have been involved in judging salon phtography.

    Basically, as a judge, you balance the impact of the shot and how the centre of interest is handled positively through technique and composition with the weakness or weaknesses in these same areas. A shot such as one of the greek orthodox priest with no impact and nothing to really attract the eye, compounded by severe compositional and technique weaknesses would be immediately disregarded. The one of the child in the air posted earlier in this thread by another photographer was actually much better, had more impact, better composition, and only one serious weakness: the arm overlapping the leg of the baby which was beyond the control of the photographer at the moment the photo was taken, given her angle.

    Ronnoco
    Last edited by Ronnoco; 09-06-2006 at 07:24 PM.

  10. #35
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    If there are such rules and I'm sure there are it would be helpful for me to find a read them. I also would like to know which ones I break when I post a photo. Is there a place where they are posted?

  11. #36
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCary
    If there are such rules and I'm sure there are it would be helpful for me to find a read them. I also would like to know which ones I break when I post a photo. Is there a place where they are posted?
    A good place to start is

    www.photoinf.com

    Ronnoco

  12. #37
    Senior Shooter Greg McCary's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Thank you Ronnoco. I will make a habit of reading them...

  13. #38
    Liz molaselake's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Oh for the love of GOD. Yet another annoying tirade started by none other than ronnoco. You're a bit of an attention whore there, buddy. I wonder what you'll do next...sling poo at unsuspecting passerbys?

    Natatbeach - You think you're mediocre?! Well actually, that's good. Modesty is always better than arrogance. However, too much of either is just plain irritating. Your photograph and skills in general are far superior than a lot of people on here (yes, I include myself in there and yes, I'm jealous ) That picture you posted is amazing. I love the expression of pure joy on the child's face. Seeing good pictures is like eating chocolate - they both make me happy.

  14. #39
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by molaselake
    Oh for the love of GOD. Yet another annoying tirade started by none other than ronnoco. You're a bit of an attention whore there, buddy. I wonder what you'll do next...sling poo at unsuspecting passerbys? .
    Well, considering your gallery, you could learn one heck of a lot by looking at technique and composition. Sorry to inform you, but black and white is close to being prehistoric.
    My mother did colour work extremely successfully, half a century ago.

    Ronnoco

  15. #40
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    Sorry to inform you, but black and white is close to being prehistoric.

    Ronnoco

    HEY!!!

    I think we've all stayed moderately reasonable adults here, but this crosses the line!



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  16. #41
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    also, I believe poo slinging is a different forum...www.pooslingingreview.com, just in case you were confused by the similar names. They do both start with a p
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  17. #42
    They call me P-Wac JETA's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Greg McCary
    The rule of thirds in which everyone refers. As for the other ones, someone tell me???
    http://www.silverlight.co.uk/tutoria...se/thirds.html
    For you beginners there is a neat test on this site. I scored 100.
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  18. #43
    ...just believe natatbeach's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by molaselake
    Your photograph and skills in general are far superior than a lot of people on here (yes, I include myself in there and yes, I'm jealous ) That picture you posted is amazing. I love the expression of pure joy on the child's face. .
    woah! easy now..... I have the token good image every once in a great while...consistency in th e quality and creativity of the images like Sebastian and Steve and Irakly(sp?) have ---is what I seek....before you go being jealous around these parts have you seriously looked over your gallery?no really---- I don't look at the images and dissect them into technicalities---I feel like a flyon the wall---and intruder whenI look at your images because I feel a lot of times as if I'm sitting in the midst of the scene. A Lot of them are very successfula nd artistic---without trying to be which make sthem that much more appealing....

    if BW is prehistoric????---crap---long live the dinosaurs...
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    I wasn't trying to change society, or to be ahead of my time.
    I didn't think of myself as liberated, and I don't believe that I did anything important.
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  19. #44
    Newest Nikon Samurai zrfraser's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    Sorry to inform you, but black and white is close to being prehistoric.


    Ronnoco
    I wish someone would have told me before I started that darkroom job, and bought all that paper, and mixed all those chemicals, and bought all that film...Now I guess they are all going to turn to fossils soon. Damn, that was a waste.

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  20. #45
    Ghost
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    Sorry to inform you, but black and white is close to being prehistoric
    Ronnoco
    The concept of "opinion" or different art mediums is escaping this young Jedi. Must step back and evaluate self before Jedi becomes lost to the dark side he does.

  21. #46
    Sleep is optional Sebastian's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    My mother did colour work extremely successfully, half a century ago.

    Ronnoco
    Clearly that was time better spent than teaching you humility and respect for those around you.
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  22. #47
    Sleep is optional Sebastian's Avatar
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    Re: Learn the rules_screw laziness!

    Just a quick note to everyone:

    I don't care that he's attacking my image. In fact, I couldn't care less. And though I really appreciate the messages of support, I just want you to know that Trevor's right. I am confident in what I do, for better or worse. Part of discovering yourself as an artist is throwing stuff against the wall and seeing if it sticks. I am not afraid to show my bad work on this site as much as I like to show stuff I think is decent. And I am 100% prepared to catch flack for either.

    That being said, I wish I could meet Ronnocco face to face. Though on the forums I think he's belligerent, angry and borderline loony, I know that there's a good chance in person he'd come across totally different. That's the nature of the internet.

    So Ronnocco, please, if you are not a jerk in real life, then stop acting like one here. There is nothing gained by alienating those you're trying to "educate" by putting down them and/or their peers.

    Everyone else, if a post by ANYONE irritates you, don't respond to it.

    I know, it sounds easy...and I'm as guilty as anyone of forgetting that sometimes. But let's try. The forums are taking on a negative feeling that has been gone for a while. I would hate to see it return.
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