I'm looking...

[Chunk]

...for suggestions on framing of shots within this scene. I saw this last Friday and liked the fractured reflection in the rain/meltwater collected on the river's ice but couldn't come up with satisfying composition of any of the elements while there so I thought I'd capture the whole scene and ask here for help. Am I looking for something that's not there?

[Asylum Steve]

I often shoot this way, Chunk. I take in a larger scene with the intent of finding cropping options later. As you found out, sometimes it can be quite a challenge to isolate interesting areas of the frame.

IMO, this shot is a variation of the reflecting water shot we see so often, but much more interesting because the ice adds some great texture to the pic.

My eye naturally tried to find a smaller section of complete symmetry, and so I cropped the building and three of the trees tightly with their reflection on the icy water, making the embankment the horizontal center of the image. BTW, that's normally a no-no, but I feel this is one of those instances where it works.

What do you think?

[natatbeach]

I had a hard time getting one cohesive piece out of it...I love the reflections on the water and the symmetry of the trees rflected but i think it's a bit busy...now when I "played" with it ---well here's my offering.... have fun with it see what you get
;)

[another view]

I've looked at this a couple of times and just can't find anything. Maybe tighten the whole composition a little, and crop from the right leaving the fence on the left - but I don't have Photoshop here to show that. I'm not sure if that makes the shot strong enough though. The sky doesn't have much detail to it and the side of the barn that we're seeing is in shadow, so that doesn't help it.

I do agree about breaking the "horizon in the center of the frame" rule here - it often works well for reflections. And the water on the ice makes an interesting reflection.

[Asylum Steve]

...I probably should have put a thin black border around the pic. You do that and it becomes a much tighter image...

[Chunk]

Thanks Steve, I think you got the best that's available in this shot. I kept trying to keep the near shore in the frame and I think that was a problem.

How very creative Nat. Are you a quilter as well as Supermom, photog, pastry chef ? Thanks to you and Another View for taking the time to look.

[darkman]

Hi Chunk,

I'm not a big fan of cropping. It can be a good learning tool. When you crop, you compromise quality. However, I often tend to frame loosely. But not too loose as most cameras don't have the complete field of view in the viewfinder or lcd.

What I do is try and work the scene. First decide what you like and dislike about the scene. Then frame it to remove the part you didn't like. Then start moving around little, try different camera angles, anchor points, lead in lines, etc. Then as you get a clearer understanding of what you really like in the scene you'll be able to put together the shot you want.

So what if you take a dozen or so shots to get the one you really like? Don't delete shots along the way. Take them home and analyze what you did and why. Usually there's a reason you took the shot and a reason it's not working.

I'm one of those who believes there's always a shot anywhere! Much does depend on what you want and what your goals are. I've read comments in the critiques where people worry about how they're going to come up with _another_ shot this good (which, as a side, begs the question why they posted it in the critique in the first place). Whereas, my goal is solid photography. If you're consistantly making solid compositions, those magical (lucky?) moments will happen and you'll be there and capture it knowing what to do. The "luck" will be that magical light and weather conditions not your compositions.

[Asylum Steve]

I'm not a big fan of cropping. It can be a good learning tool. When you crop, you compromise quality.

Mike, I'm sure many feel the same way you do, but to be honest, this is something I've never been able to undersatnd. IMO, "not cropping" is simply a self-imposed restriction, fine if it helps or inspires you individually, but not really something that you can list as a rule for "better" photography.

Back in the old days of film, we learned a photographer crops an image three times: when you shoot, when you print, and when you present (mount). Of course, along with that was the trend of filing out a negative carrier to get that ragged border around an entire image to show that it was indeed full frame, and therefore (I guess) more skill was taken in its creation.

I actually did the full frame thing for a while until I finally felt it was too constrictive...

I guess the problem I have with not cropping is that final images come in all sizes and aspect ratios, not just the rectangular dimmensions of a 35mm frame. To me, square and panaromic (letterbox) are two of the most common (and practical), so for those cropping is inevitable.

Not only that, but I'm also a big fan of SEVERE cropping. IOW, creating a "looking through a small window or portal" effect by having the image be a small section of a much larger scene, and the viewer has to work to figure out what the larger scene is. Many times, this is nearly impossible to do strictly in the camera, and can only be accomplished through cropping...

I'n not saying composition in the camera is isn't important. In fact, it's crucial. Just that for me, the bottom line is a digital image, much like a negative, is simply the raw visual material, and can and should be used (and cropped) in any way that results in something creative.

[Liz]

Chunk,

First - I love the water & reflections. I did see a little spot I wanted to attempt to frame. However, I never edited someone else's photos so I have 2 questions.

1) Do you mind?

2) I can't figure out how to do it. Could someone help me here? Thanks. I have Windows XP and PSElements2.0

Thanks.

Liz

...for suggestions on framing of shots within this scene. I saw this last Friday and liked the fractured reflection in the rain/meltwater collected on the river's ice but couldn't come up with satisfying composition of any of the elements while there so I thought I'd capture the whole scene and ask here for help. Am I looking for something that's not there?

[natatbeach]

Liz if you save the image to your computer and right click the file you can go to Open With Microsoft Picture Manager...it actually has adjustment levels similar to curves and you can do contrast and color correcting....very simple very useful...hope that helps

[Chunk]

Chunk,

First - I love the water & reflections. I did see a little spot I wanted to attempt to frame. However, I never edited someone else's photos so I have 2 questions.

1) Do you mind?

2) I can't figure out how to do it. Could someone help me here? Thanks. I have Windows XP and PSElements2.0

Thanks.

Liz

Thanks Liz. You (and anyone else) are certainly welcome to edit any photo I put up in the forums for the purpose of explaining things or making a point. In this case its what I'm asking folks to do.

On my PC I usually right click on the image in the message and choose 'Copy' from the popup menu and then go to my graphics app (usually Paintshop pro but it will probably work the same in any) and press 'control v' (or Edit-Paste as new image) to get it where I can work on it. If you want to get a different crop, I usually use the selection tool to highlight the area and then 'control c', 'control v' to copy it to a new image and then save that image as a jpeg to be uploaded.

Thanks for looking.

[Chunk]

Thanks, Darkman, for taking the time for a thoughtful response. I agree with much of what you say and agree that it's important to have the subject filling the frame as much as possible to get the highest quality but I don't have any problem with cropping to eliminate unwanted stuff from the composition. I usually do as you suggest and take several compositions of a subject and usually don't have any trouble finding pleasing alternative compositions on site. This time I did have trouble and I think Steve's suggested crop is a much stronger composition.

I agree with your "there's always a shot anywhere" and often find a good shot by turning around and seeing what other subjects are there after taking shots of what initially attracted me. There are a couple of those taken at this site in my End of Year Patterns thread.

[Liz]

Thanks a lot for the explanation. I've always wondered how to do it, but never asked because I always feel funny editing someone else's images, although I don't mind (and am grateful) when someone edits mine. :-)

Liz

Thanks Liz. You (and anyone else) are certainly welcome to edit any photo I put up in the forums for the purpose of explaining things or making a point. In this case its what I'm asking folks to do.

On my PC I usually right click on the image in the message and choose 'Copy' from the popup menu and then go to my graphics app (usually Paintshop pro but it will probably work the same in any) and press 'control v' (or Edit-Paste as new image) to get it where I can work on it. If you want to get a different crop, I usually use the selection tool to highlight the area and then 'control c', 'control v' to copy it to a new image and then save that image as a jpeg to be uploaded.

Thanks for looking.

[darkman]

Mike, I'm sure many feel the same way you do, but to be honest, this is something I've never been able to undersatnd. IMO, "not cropping" is simply a self-imposed restriction, fine if it helps or inspires you individually, but not really something that you can list as a rule for "better" photography.
.

Hi Steve,

Maybe I should elaborate! First, it is by no means a self imposed restriction that makes me feel like I'm a better photographer! Second, I agree that the 35mm format (2x3 aspect ratio) doesn't work for every compostion. Therefore, I do crop to match the composition I want. Third, my goals are usually relatively large prints. I do notice a significant difference in quality - _especially_ with scenics - with anything beyond minor cropping.

Moreover, most people are shooting digital. So why not spend an extra few minutes working the scene? Even shooting film I have no problem shooting a role on a given scene. I keep shooting as long as I feel it's productive.

I guess I also have a problem encouraging people to just crop something good out of every picture. I see that pontificated too often on photo sites. Probably because with so many people shooting digital (and probably not printing) it's so easy to do.

IOW, I would rather teach Chunk, or anyone, how to get to the composition you cropped (I like, btw) while standing there with their camera. I feel that's a better endeavor. I'm sure that crop could be improved upon while their there with a little effort working the scene. Perhaps just by moving over a little or changing the camera angle slightly....

I see large crops as a great learning tool for composition. In some cases it does add a very good artistic value. Just like grainy film, blur, etc does. IMO, I just don't believe in relying on it and promoting it as the way to take pictures. For example, would you want to come home and have to edit all your vacation photos? Or just print them out and put them in the family album?

However, in general, I prefer to help people translate that crop to the field instead of relying on it to fix a poor compositions. Yet, I don't see that often enough on web sites. I'm sorry if you took my comments any other way! Probably just poor wording by me...

Mike