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  1. #1
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    HELP!! need to know by like 2:00

    So the Nutcracker pics that I did last year are up at the studio. Nutcracker has rolled around again, I'll be shooting. The studio is working on getting thier flyers up. Took the pics off the wall to take to Walmart to scan. But noticed (either them or the walmart guy, not sure), that it says you need permission, there is a copywrite notice on the back.

    So they called, they need me to give them a letter saying they can print them. I said let me look into it, I'd prefer to give them a file so they will be little higher quality. Still printed at wallmart, but at least not a crappy scan.

    How does this work? What does the letter need to say? Charge them? My name on the prints? What do I do?!?!?

    Thanks

    adina
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  2. #2
    this isn't the old PR anymore
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    Re: HELP!! need to know by like 2:00

    I would love to weigh in on this, but i am not sure i entirely understand. I have been asked before by a very on the ball shop if a certain user had permission to reproduce my images (complete with watermark!!!). They did not. After they realized what they were attempting to do was by no means respectably, they paid for the prints and I allowed them to be printed at the shop. To give permission I went down in person and spoke to the management etc. I imagine your letter should be considered a legal document declaring you the copyright holder of the image. Maybe i didn't interpret that right but its 1:52 and no one else posted.... :-)

    -pete

  3. #3
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: HELP!! need to know by like 2:00

    1:10 my time

    They want to use my images to put on thier flyers advertising thier show. She tried to scan them at Walmart, but couldn't, because they don't have permission. Called to let me know they need a letter of permission, could I give them one. I said let me look into it, I'll get back to them.

    As I usually end up on the short end of the stick with the dance stuff, I wanted to get some other opinions before I call them back.
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  4. #4
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: HELP!! need to know by like 2:00

    I agree that you supplying a digital file would be best, if that works out.

    I've never had this happen to me before, but if you had a piece of letterhead with a note saying that you've given so-and-so permission to scan these prints until the end of this year, etc... Letterhead doesn't need to be something with a designed logo and pre-printed - just make up something on a word document that looks good and says "Photography by Adina" or "Adina ___ Photography" (don't know your last name). Maybe you could just call them and give permission too or at least find out exactly what they need.

    I'd guess that they would need something in writing for liability reasons, probably a corprate requirement.

  5. #5
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Can You Get Paid?

    Adina-
    Can you make some money off of this? Shouldn't you make some money? It doesn't have to be much. But I'd charge them something, just on general principle. If they want to use it, it's got a dollar value. And you've invested your time and money to become a better photographer. You should be compensated if someone wants to use your work to promote their product/service. Charge them $50-100 and give them a digital file with an invoice stating they have paid for permission to use the image on the flyer. If it's a large organization, charge them more. Be fair to yourself. It sounds like you've got the sale locked up, if you want it.
    Photo-John

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  6. #6
    Gone Fishing Tuna's Avatar
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    Re: HELP!! need to know by like 2:00

    Most retail operations will require a copyright release for any photo that they reproduce from a second generation source (includes CD's and floppy disk's). They will need a hard copy to reproduce and keep on site for verification. Make sure you include your phone # as many have policies in effect to call for verification as well.

    I've heard of some major retailers having been sued by photographic organizations and having lost because they did not have copyright policies in effect - I believe the judgements were in the 7-10 million dollars.

    Oh no!! My clock shows 2:29!

    Tuna

  7. #7
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Thanks

    I just got off the phone with her.

    I did tell her that I would need to charge her, which she totally balked at. "I was under the impression that I could use my pictures for my advertising."

    I explained to her that the pics she bought, that are hanging in her studio are her pictures, but the actual photo is still mine. She paid for one picture, not the actual image. She wanted 5 files to put on her flyer, I said $50 an image, she doesn't want to spend that much on the flyers.


    She's calling back.....


    Am I doing okay so far?
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  8. #8
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    Am I doing okay so far?
    Yes! Hold your ground... If they hired a portrait studio, etc to do the shoot, they would have handled it the same way. Good for you!

  9. #9
    this isn't the old PR anymore
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    Re: Thanks

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    I just got off the phone with her.

    I did tell her that I would need to charge her, which she totally balked at. "I was under the impression that I could use my pictures for my advertising."

    I explained to her that the pics she bought, that are hanging in her studio are her pictures, but the actual photo is still mine. She paid for one picture, not the actual image. She wanted 5 files to put on her flyer, I said $50 an image, she doesn't want to spend that much on the flyers.


    She's calling back.....


    Am I doing okay so far?

    Well it looks like you got it figured out.

    It is very annoying when people do not value your work. It is up to you to maintain a brand identity for yourself. If you do not value your work, then she won't either. Two hours in the garage and your car is fixed for 250 dollars, but she doesn't want to pay that for the images she uses to promote her business? If you sell to her at any less then your original terms you run the risk of perpetually being the photographer who is cheap. Furthermore, you devalue the work of others by allowing a source for people to get cheap images.

    What else does she have to promote with? What is the scope of her publication? Supply and demand can work here as well. If she doesn't think that your images are valuable she can consult another person with images. BUT, since you distinguish yourself with great images, your brand identity is strong and creative. I know we aren't talking about pictures of brett favre but your work is yours and is valuable.

    Can you tell that i read Rick Rickman's columns about the business side of photography? :-)

    -pete

  10. #10
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    A Good Lesson

    Adina-
    This is a good lesson. People will always misunderstand. It's good to give them something on paper when you deliver prints that explains exactly what they bought. I don't do it - but I should.

    If she thinks $50 is too much, and you'd like her to use the images, bargain a little. Give her a package rate of $150. Or do some trade. Maybe $100 cash and tickets to the show. Creative finance is the key for sales when people don't have a budget. And if there's a real problem, remind her that the printer isn't giving anything away for free. Why should you?
    Photo-John

    Your reviews are the foundation of this site - Write A Review!

  11. #11
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: A Good Lesson

    Well, I haven't heard back, and she told me that it needed to be done about an hour ago.

    Normally, I would have bargined with her, and maybe given her a break. But every business type dealing I have with them ends up with me on the short end, so I am sticking to what I said. And I have been more than generous with them, to the point my husband asked why I even charged them at all, I probably lost money on it.

    I did call Wal-mart, where they were going to have them printed, and let them know the situation, and that they did not have permission to print them. They are going to keep an eye out, and said they are all over the copyright issues, and really stick to them.

    Thanks everyone, for the advice. It is definitely appreciated. And should I have further dealings with them, I will get everything in writing before hand.

    adina
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  12. #12
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    Re: A Good Lesson

    Adina,

    I didn't say anything in the beginning as I don't know the answers that would have helped, but the one thing I did think about would have been getting acknowledgement for the photo/s being used as that would have been some great free advertising, which is something I would have suggested over the charging them for them instead and maybe saying next time we would have to work out something in advance with more time to organise it. Like giving them something but you would get something in return as well, may have been more business in the long run.

    Just my thoughts.

  13. #13
    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    It's not always about the money...

    Adina,

    Sounds like you've got a handle on this situation, but let me tell you, don't let pride, principle, or money get in the way of what might be a very good business decision for you.

    If you are getting a lot of community publicity and advertising by allowing someone free use of one of your shots for a limited time, many would say (myself included) that's a fair exchange.

    Now of course, I'm one who is always saying you have to put a value on your work at some point, but tradeouts will always be part of the equation if they make sense in the long run.

    This is something we each have to decide for ourselves. Just don't be so stubborn over principle that you lose a good opportunity over a relatively small amount of money...
    "Riding along on a carousel...tryin' to catch up to you..."

    -Steve
    Studio & Lighting - Photography As Art Forum Moderator

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  14. #14
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    Re: It's not always about the money...

    Isn't that basically what I said ????

  15. #15
    News & Rum-or-ator opus's Avatar
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    Re: It's not always about the money...

    Yep, looks like Steve was further emphasizing the point. It's always good when more than one person has the same advice ... makes the advice much more compelling.

    Adina, it sounds like you're comfortable with your decision because it seems as if you've given a lot to them already, and are finally drawing the line at where your professional limits are.

    It might not be a bad idea for you to throw together a little flyer of your own on your home computer (just buy some tri-fold paper at Office Max and print it yourself, or even have them do it -- it won't cost all that much) with a little description of your services and some prices for prints, reprints, and rights for publication. Drop it off at their office and tell them that if they have any questions in the future, your brochure should answer most of their questions.

    I think that would make you look very professional, and get the message across that you were making an ordinary business decision, rather than an arbitrary, spur-of-the-moment decision. Might leave the door open for future business dealings with them that don't leave you short-changed.

    To set your prices, google and see what other places are charging.
    Drink Coffee. Do stupid things faster with more energy.


  16. #16
    ...just believe natatbeach's Avatar
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    so what happened?

    Hope it works out let us know...I have such a hard time with $$$ issues and usually end up doing things for free and feeling used...Glad you stood your ground...bartering might be a nice trade off. Use of images for free/or discounted dance classes for the girls...In business I think there needs to always be a VALUE for all involved in the transaction. Good luck let us know
    "I was not trying to be shocking, or to be a pioneer.
    I wasn't trying to change society, or to be ahead of my time.
    I didn't think of myself as liberated, and I don't believe that I did anything important.
    I was just myself. I didn't know any other way to be, or any other way to live."
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  17. #17
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    free publicity

    I did consider that, but in the end, I think I'm comfortable with the way things turned out.

    I've tried in the past to work with her to benefit us both, and it ends up costing me money.

    I've thought about approaching other dance studios in the past, to do the same type of shooting, but in the end, I think I enjoy it mostly because my girls are doing it. I don't know if it would be the same with another studio that I have no personal interest in. And the amount of time that goes with it isn't something I'm willing to give up at this point.

    Another point that I've thought about, which kind of influenced my decision is the style of shooting it is. While I really enjoy doing the shows, I think, again, because of the fact that my girls are in them. I'm working towards finding me in my photos, and while I always get great response from the dance pics, really, I don't see anything of me in them. I've been doing some children stuff for other people lately, and I can really see a common thread. There's the same sort of feeling in them that I get in the pics of my kids (well, sometimes ) And since I have the luxury of being able to work to find that feeling, or style, I'm going to take advantage of it.


    Okay....more rambleing than I thought.....
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  18. #18
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: free publicity

    I wanted to make sure I mentioned this...

    a huge part of the choice I made in charging them was based on past dealings. Publicity, style, money, whatever, played a part also, but a huge part was based on past dealings which are too long and annoying to put into text.
    I sleep, but I don't rest.

  19. #19
    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    It's entirely possible...

    Quote Originally Posted by Flashram_Peter_AUS
    Isn't that basically what I said ????
    Peter, I read Adina's post and was replying to it. Sorry mate, but I didn't read yours...
    "Riding along on a carousel...tryin' to catch up to you..."

    -Steve
    Studio & Lighting - Photography As Art Forum Moderator

    Running the Photo Asylum, Asylum Steve's blogged brain pipes...
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