Editing other peoples work

[Chunk]

I agree that in this forum it doesn't make much sense to edit someone elses work unasked. In the critique forum, where people are posting their work asking for other's opinions or suggestions, I think that a picture can be worth a thousand words and an edit that illustrates a suggested change is often a more effective way of providing feedback than a confusing written explanation.

I hope that everyone feels free to offer me any suggestions on any of my work in any way they feel best puts the point across - especially in the critique forum but for my work, anywhere they see it. That feedback is what I see as the strongest benefit of this community since I don't have a good source of honest feedback from people whose work I like other than here. It's much better than the "Oh, this is nice, I love it" comments that I get from family and friends or happens in some other online venues.

When someone takes the time to download my pic, work on it, and repost it as an illustration of suggested changes, I think it is a real gift they have given me. I don't always agree that the suggestion is an improvement, but it is nice to see how someone else sees things.

Thanks to all of those who do offer all sorts of feedback, please continue to do so.

[LeeIs]

Well said Chunk. Even if I haven't expressed it well in my post above, I also appreciate the time taken by those that want to illustrate their ideas to me through visuals even if I don't agree with them. Like you said, a picture is indeed worth a thousand words and it's much better to understand what others are saying when they actually show it rather than try and explain it. Especially when it comes to crops. or the " crop above the post to the left and to the left of the post above". etc.

I try not to edit too many people's work (I infact stopped doing it ) because of the sensetivity involved in this issue, but sometimes I wish I could just do it and thus saving me the time to accurately explain it.

[another view]

This thread got a little off topic so I don't think I'll sticky it...

I do agree that it's a personal choice whether or not it's OK to edit someone else's work. Personally, I wouldn't want someone to do that to my shots unless I specifically asked someone to do it.

I think that would be the best policy - don't edit someone else's work unless you know it's OK. John, did it happen here or in Critique (or somewhere else)? I'm thinking that there's a bigger possibility of that happening in Critique by it's nature. Maybe send mtbbrian a private message and ask him to post a sticky about it there.

[swmdrayfan]

This thread got a little off topic so I don't think I'll sticky it...

I do agree that it's a personal choice whether or not it's OK to edit someone else's work. Personally, I wouldn't want someone to do that to my shots unless I specifically asked someone to do it.

I think that would be the best policy - don't edit someone else's work unless you know it's OK. John, did it happen here or in Critique (or somewhere else)? I'm thinking that there's a bigger possibility of that happening in Critique by it's nature. Maybe send mtbbrian a private message and ask him to post a sticky about it there.

It happened in Critique. It's not really a major issue as the guy didn't know the policy. My concern is if someone posts a photo, then 10 people post edits, the original gets lost in the process---somewhere down the line, someone happening upon the thread gets confused and congratulates the wrong person on a great shot, while the original poster gets ignored. If I sound overly sensitive about it...well---I am, because that's what happened in this particular instance with just one edit. Lord knows I need all the help I can get, but I'd rather be in control of how many people edit my work.

[another view]

Lord knows I need all the help I can get, but I'd rather be in control of how many people edit my work.

I can understand and respect that choice. Personally I'm with you on that - I'd rather hear that an image should have more/less contrast or something than have someone just go ahead and do it. It's a personal choice and your signature makes your choice very apparent! Like I said, I think the best policy here and anywhere else is not to edit someone else's work without permission.

[Lava Lamp]

When I first started posting here a couple of people and edited my photos and some posted photos of their own to show me the deficiencies in mine. I think I always had a sense of composition, but people showed me how to handle contrast and sharpness better, in particular. I'm not sure if I could have seen it as readily.

I sometimes edit other people's work on the critique board where I think a picture will tell the story better than my words. I don't do it often and I wouldn't do it just to do it, but I think it is a valuable part of offering a critique at times. Sometimes the recipients seem to truly grateful. CLKunst, for example, had an image that cried out for black and white to me. I showed her a quick change and she loved it and printed her own (better) b&w version adn even got it published.

I myself sometimes feel possesive of my photos, but try to remember that when I post to critique all bets are sort of off. Mostly people around here are nice and if they're not one of us will call them on it, but at the end of the day we want tough criticism, right? That's how we grow. One fo the reasons I don't usually post photos of people I know and care about is that it might be tough to read some criticism in the right light -- i.e., I need to remember that just 'cause the poster doesn't like my photo, doesn't mean they hate my kid.

Anyway, I guess that's a roundabout way of saying that we are all very passionate about this stuff. That's why se post here. And I understand where you are coming from, but I wanted to give you the other side as I saw it, too.

[Ronnoco]

I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

Ronnoco

[Photo-John]

I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

With all due respect to your legal experience, the law is what we chose to allow on this forum, it being a private forum. By posting on a critique forum, you are only asking for advice. There is no implicit request or permission for someone to edit your work. Photos are private property and therefore sacred on this site. To be conservative and avoid offending anyone, the right thing to do is to not edit someone else's photo without their permission.

[Ronnoco]

With all due respect to your legal experience, the law is what we chose to allow on this forum, it being a private forum. By posting on a critique forum, you are only asking for advice. There is no implicit request or permission for someone to edit your work. Photos are private property and therefore sacred on this site. To be conservative and avoid offending anyone, the right thing to do is to not edit someone else's photo without their permission.

John, just for info. sake, I have had my e-mail address published without my permission on the net, which means that currently at one address, I have 1,500 spam messages. Given that situation, unless this site has great security it would be easy for all photos from the gallery for example and elsewhere to be "harvested" by a software program and used without permission for monetary gain. That is a much more serious problem than someone unaware of the site protocol inadvertantly editing someone else's photo, with good intentions of trying to show where improvements can be made.

So, yes, this certainly is a private site, (if there is indeed a sufficient level of security to maintain that privacy) and no one here is really that interested in editing someone else's photo anyway, given the time and effort And needless to say no one wants to offend one of their colleagues here. Nevertheless newbies will often not be aware of or not remember this or other protocols, so despite the best of intentions it will still happen on occasion.
Internal protocols are indeed important and will be followed, but as the site manager we have some expectations from you, with regard to protection from external sources of copyright or privacy infringement through hacking.

So how private is this website as in how secure is it from outside hacking or harvesting of either email addresses, personal information, or photos? Some sites are checked daily for traces of hacking with software. Some have personal information or photos in SSL protected areas. Some have other methods. The purpose is to discourage to a certain level, outside hacking of this site. What are you doing in this regard?

Regards,

Ronnoco

Ronnoco

[another view]

no one here is really that interested in editing someone else's photo anyway, given the time and effort And needless to say no one wants to offend one of their colleagues here

Well, yes it is happening. Mostly (I think) it happens in Critique but it has been known to happen other places on this site as well. The point of this discussion is that the "critiquers" are thinking that they're helping by doing their own edit, and the photographer is offended that someone would take the liberty to do that.

I see what you're saying about image theft, email harvesting, etc. I get a ton of spam, but it didn't start happening until well after I was active on this site. The only time I've ever had an image stolen was on ebay - but OTOH that was the only one that I caught. Maybe my shots are out there doing something for somebody and I'll never know. That's the risk that you have to accept by putting your images on the web. Two clicks and the image can be stolen, at least in most situations.

[JSPhoto]

I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

Ronnoco

Ronnoco,

We have had previous conversations about copyright law and other related law, before telling me I am wrong again, realize that you are in Canada and I am in the US and the laws ARE different. International law is actually just as strict as US law on copyright.
Here in the US our photos are protected by US copyright and under that law it is illegal for anyone to download or alter OUR images, no matter what you think. My brother in law is a copyright lawyer and has dealt witrh this situation thousands of times and has yet to lose a case, whether the photos were registered or not.
The difference is that unregistered photo cases you only get damages and not attorney fees.
JS

[JSPhoto]

I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

Ronnoco

Ronnoco,
I just looked through the law in Canada - the Copyright Act and no where does it say what you are claiming it says...so apparently it;s NOT the law as you claim. There is a section that gives certain exceptions to news photography, but that is not what we are dealing with here, and considering the site is hosted in the US it falls under US law, not Canadian.
Just thought I'd point these things out.

Also, as to your email address being "published" on the net, that has nothing to do with this site. I have one address thats plastered all over too, but that is the fault of Earthlink, not PR.

JS

[another view]

I think I always had a sense of composition, but people showed me how to handle contrast and sharpness better, in particular. I'm not sure if I could have seen it as readily.

This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.

[swmdrayfan]

This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.

same thing happened to me on another site. And it just happened to someone else here on a photo in the critique forum.

[Lava Lamp]

This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.

Sure, I've had that happen to my photos, too. It's amazing how much someone can muck it up. Of course, people probably think that when I've done an edit, too!

[Speed]

When someone takes the time to download my pic, work on it, and repost it as an illustration of suggested changes, I think it is a real gift they have given me. I don't always agree that the suggestion is an improvement, but it is nice to see how someone else sees things.

I'm with you Chunk. My PS skills are very basic. I do very little PS work on my shots. Mostly just cropping and/or resizing.

I don't mind someone editing my work to show me how it can be improved. I've learned a great deal about photography here, and I'm grateful to everyone who's shared their knowledge with me. I especially like it when they tell me WHAT they did and HOW they did it.

For sure, we should make sure the individual knows and approves of having their work edited. Maybe we need a guideline that says if you edit someone's work, label it as such, and give an explanation of what you did.

Now if Paul will post that edit he did of my grackle in Nature and Wildlife and tell me what he did...

He emailed me the edit, and it was great!