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  1. #26
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

    Ronnoco

  2. #27
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.
    With all due respect to your legal experience, the law is what we chose to allow on this forum, it being a private forum. By posting on a critique forum, you are only asking for advice. There is no implicit request or permission for someone to edit your work. Photos are private property and therefore sacred on this site. To be conservative and avoid offending anyone, the right thing to do is to not edit someone else's photo without their permission.
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  3. #28
    Captain of the Ship Photo-John's Avatar
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    The Final Word

    I'm going to make the final call on this. I've actually said it before but I guess it needs to be officially posted - the rule is that people are not allowed to post edited versions of someone else's photos without the original photographer's permission. I will add this to the Photo Critique guidelines. I know that people will violate this guideline because people don't read forum guidelines. So everyone please help me enforce it by politely letting violaters know what the standard is here. And if someone edits your photo without asking, please let them know that it's not ok - even if you don't mind that they did it. Remember - photos are sacred. We can't afford to have any margin on this subject. My photo is my photo and only I have the right to touch it. If I give you my permission, go wild. But otherwise, hands off.

    Thanks!
    Photo-John

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  4. #29
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Lava Lamp
    I think I always had a sense of composition, but people showed me how to handle contrast and sharpness better, in particular. I'm not sure if I could have seen it as readily.
    This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

    As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

    PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.

  5. #30
    Senior Member swmdrayfan's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

    As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

    PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.
    same thing happened to me on another site. And it just happened to someone else here on a photo in the critique forum.

  6. #31
    GoldMember Lava Lamp's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    This can be a good learning tool, but what has to happen first is getting permission to edit the image. For example, you post an image but I think it could use a little adjustment in curves. I should say - Hey LL, I like your shot but I think there should be more contrast to it - do you mind if I edit it?. If you say yes, then I'll show you what I mean. If you don't want me to do it, then you've already got my advice anyway and I'll respect your wishes.

    As we've all read here, some people do not want their images edited. Ask first, simple as that.

    PS - I had a similar thing happen on another site. I put a shot in the gallery and someone copied my image, edited it and posted their version in the critique. I've never seen that done on that site before. They thought my shot needed more contrast. I think their version looked awful.
    Sure, I've had that happen to my photos, too. It's amazing how much someone can muck it up. Of course, people probably think that when I've done an edit, too!

  7. #32
    Senior Member Ronnoco's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    With all due respect to your legal experience, the law is what we chose to allow on this forum, it being a private forum. By posting on a critique forum, you are only asking for advice. There is no implicit request or permission for someone to edit your work. Photos are private property and therefore sacred on this site. To be conservative and avoid offending anyone, the right thing to do is to not edit someone else's photo without their permission.
    John, just for info. sake, I have had my e-mail address published without my permission on the net, which means that currently at one address, I have 1,500 spam messages. Given that situation, unless this site has great security it would be easy for all photos from the gallery for example and elsewhere to be "harvested" by a software program and used without permission for monetary gain. That is a much more serious problem than someone unaware of the site protocol inadvertantly editing someone else's photo, with good intentions of trying to show where improvements can be made.

    So, yes, this certainly is a private site, (if there is indeed a sufficient level of security to maintain that privacy) and no one here is really that interested in editing someone else's photo anyway, given the time and effort And needless to say no one wants to offend one of their colleagues here. Nevertheless newbies will often not be aware of or not remember this or other protocols, so despite the best of intentions it will still happen on occasion.
    Internal protocols are indeed important and will be followed, but as the site manager we have some expectations from you, with regard to protection from external sources of copyright or privacy infringement through hacking.

    So how private is this website as in how secure is it from outside hacking or harvesting of either email addresses, personal information, or photos? Some sites are checked daily for traces of hacking with software. Some have personal information or photos in SSL protected areas. Some have other methods. The purpose is to discourage to a certain level, outside hacking of this site. What are you doing in this regard?

    Regards,

    Ronnoco

    Ronnoco

  8. #33
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    no one here is really that interested in editing someone else's photo anyway, given the time and effort And needless to say no one wants to offend one of their colleagues here
    Well, yes it is happening. Mostly (I think) it happens in Critique but it has been known to happen other places on this site as well. The point of this discussion is that the "critiquers" are thinking that they're helping by doing their own edit, and the photographer is offended that someone would take the liberty to do that.

    I see what you're saying about image theft, email harvesting, etc. I get a ton of spam, but it didn't start happening until well after I was active on this site. The only time I've ever had an image stolen was on ebay - but OTOH that was the only one that I caught. Maybe my shots are out there doing something for somebody and I'll never know. That's the risk that you have to accept by putting your images on the web. Two clicks and the image can be stolen, at least in most situations.

  9. #34
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

    Ronnoco

    Ronnoco,

    We have had previous conversations about copyright law and other related law, before telling me I am wrong again, realize that you are in Canada and I am in the US and the laws ARE different. International law is actually just as strict as US law on copyright.
    Here in the US our photos are protected by US copyright and under that law it is illegal for anyone to download or alter OUR images, no matter what you think. My brother in law is a copyright lawyer and has dealt witrh this situation thousands of times and has yet to lose a case, whether the photos were registered or not.
    The difference is that unregistered photo cases you only get damages and not attorney fees.
    JS
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  10. #35
    Not-so-recent Nikon Convert livin4lax09's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    to me, it's alright, as long as permission is granted, either

    "poster A, I would like to show you how I would edit the photo, is that alright?" or "Poster A, I have taken the liberty to edit your photo. If this is a problem with you, just let me know and I'll delete it right away."

  11. #36
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by livin4lax09
    to me, it's alright, as long as permission is granted, either

    "poster A, I would like to show you how I would edit the photo, is that alright?" or "Poster A, I have taken the liberty to edit your photo. If this is a problem with you, just let me know and I'll delete it right away."
    Liven, the rule is to get permission BEFORE doing anything like editing another persons photo.

    To me, this "should" be common sense, but then that is how I was raised. The reason we have so many stupid laws and rules in this country is A: Lack of common sense B: Lack of respect for others, and the "I can do want I want, screw you attitude" that runs rampant.
    Not saying that is what happened here but it is how some feel when others do as they wish with our photos.

    JS
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  12. #37
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Interesting discussion, and as with many discussions on here, there are varying viewpoints. Of course, PJ set the standard and as such all should follow. I have a suggestion, as I am one who needs to be "shown" as well as "told" how to do something, when you post a photo, add a line something like "This photo may/may not be edited and displayed in this forum for educational purposes, only." Or something to that effect. I, like some others, appreciate when someone shows me how my photos can be better and then explains how they did it so that I can go and try to duplicate it. Admitted, this is my personal quirk, but since I don't learn well by reading, I need people not only to explain but also to show.
    I have in the past, in trying to be helpful and also to learn on my part, edited a couple of shots. I did not ask specific permission in advance but based on previous responses and the original post, felt it was ok. I will change that method of thinking though and in the future, ask if it is ok to post an edit.
    Ken
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  13. #38
    Princess of the OT adina's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    There is another forum that I occasionally visit that has had this issue frequently.

    For those who want someone to show them by editing, they simply have added to their signature "feel free to edit" or something of the sort. For those who don't want others mucking with thier work, a simple "please don't edit" in the signature had solved that issue.

    I would say unless someone specifies "feel free to edit" in one way or another, leave it alone.

  14. #39
    Erstwhile Vagabond armed with camera Lionheart's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    There is another forum that I occasionally visit that has had this issue frequently.

    For those who want someone to show them by editing, they simply have added to their signature "feel free to edit" or something of the sort. For those who don't want others mucking with thier work, a simple "please don't edit" in the signature had solved that issue.

    I would say unless someone specifies "feel free to edit" in one way or another, leave it alone.
    That's a great suggestion Adina! Personally, I don't mind someone showing me a different, or better way to work an image. I'm all for improving, all the time ( I attend 150 hours of continuing ed every year in my profession-the requirement is 50 hours every two years), but I can see where unsolicited "help" would be annoying.
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  15. #40
    Just a Member Chunk's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by adina
    There is another forum that I occasionally visit that has had this issue frequently.

    For those who want someone to show them by editing, they simply have added to their signature "feel free to edit" or something of the sort. For those who don't want others mucking with thier work, a simple "please don't edit" in the signature had solved that issue.

    I would say unless someone specifies "feel free to edit" in one way or another, leave it alone.
    Imagine my surprise when I re opened this thread after finishing my little project that shows up in my sig. The little jpeg is active so click on it for a short explanation.

    Maybe there could be a standard one somewhere on PR so everyone could see at a glance that edits are OK. Until then anyone wanting to use these files for their own sig is welcome to do so. (right click on the icon to get its url from the properties)
    ----------------------------


  16. #41
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunk
    Imagine my surprise when I re opened this thread after finishing my little project that shows up in my sig. The little jpeg is active so click on it for a short explanation.

    Maybe there could be a standard one somewhere on PR so everyone could see at a glance that edits are OK. Until then anyone wanting to use these files for their own sig is welcome to do so. (right click on the icon to get its url from the properties)
    Hey Chunk...that's neat...I don't know how to do it, but that would, IMHO, be even better as a rollover!!!! Everyone could add a "Feel Free" or "Don't Edit" or something like that to there signatures..
    Ken
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  17. #42
    Senior Member Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Chunk , great idea , hope your gonna show me how to include this in my future post's

  18. #43
    Not-so-recent Nikon Convert livin4lax09's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by JSPhoto
    Liven, the rule is to get permission BEFORE doing anything like editing another persons photo.

    To me, this "should" be common sense, but then that is how I was raised. The reason we have so many stupid laws and rules in this country is A: Lack of common sense B: Lack of respect for others, and the "I can do want I want, screw you attitude" that runs rampant.
    Not saying that is what happened here but it is how some feel when others do as they wish with our photos.

    JS
    I didn't say anything about the rules, or didn't disagree with the rules at all. I was simple expressing MY opinion on the whole situation.

  19. #44
    Moderator of Critiques/Hearder of Cats mtbbrian's Avatar
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    Re: The Final Word

    Quote Originally Posted by Photo-John
    I will add this to the Photo Critique guidelines. I know that people will violate this guideline because people don't read forum guidelines. So everyone please help me enforce it by politely letting violaters know what the standard is here.
    Speaking of that John, I'd like to add a thing to the guidleines on the Critique Forum. I have been meaning to email you about. So I will.
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  20. #45
    Just a Member Chunk's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Knight
    Chunk , great idea , hope your gonna show me how to include this in my future post's
    Here's how I put it in my sig.
    Create a 50x50 pixel jpeg for your button and another jpeg for your text message and save them somewhere on the web (I used photobucket.com). Make note of their URLs.

    Then here in PR do the following steps

    Step 1. Click on the My Account link in the menu bar.
    Step 2. Choose Edit Signature in the control panel. This will bring up the dialog so your screen will look something like this.
    Step 3. Click on the Insert Image button and add the URL of your image to the dialog box that pops up.
    Step 4. While that image is selected click on the Insert Link button and add the URL of the text image.

    Feel free to use my images (either copy them or just use my URLs) if you wish.
    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Editing other peoples work-08.jpg  
    Attached Images Attached Images   
    ----------------------------


  21. #46
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Ronnoco
    I agree with Lava Lamp. I should also add that having given workshops in copyright law to television producers, the legal situation is this. If you post an image in this kind of critical forum then you are doing so, with the expectation that someone might edit it and are therefore giving them that right, intentionally or not. That is the law.

    Ronnoco
    Ronnoco,
    I just looked through the law in Canada - the Copyright Act and no where does it say what you are claiming it says...so apparently it;s NOT the law as you claim. There is a section that gives certain exceptions to news photography, but that is not what we are dealing with here, and considering the site is hosted in the US it falls under US law, not Canadian.
    Just thought I'd point these things out.

    Also, as to your email address being "published" on the net, that has nothing to do with this site. I have one address thats plastered all over too, but that is the fault of Earthlink, not PR.

    JS
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  22. #47
    is back jar_e's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by Chunk
    Imagine my surprise when I re opened this thread after finishing my little project that shows up in my sig. The little jpeg is active so click on it for a short explanation.

    Maybe there could be a standard one somewhere on PR so everyone could see at a glance that edits are OK. Until then anyone wanting to use these files for their own sig is welcome to do so. (right click on the icon to get its url from the properties)
    Well aren't I going to have fun with your shots Chunk Kidding, kidding, though I love the idea. It's definately a quick and easy way to know whether or not the photographer wants editing done.

    That being said, I don't know if this is going to open a whole other can of worms, but hopefully people edit somewhat respectfully.

    We can only hope.

  23. #48
    Senior Member Knight's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Thanks for the play by play Chunk

  24. #49
    Just a Member Chunk's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Quote Originally Posted by jar_e
    That being said, I don't know if this is going to open a whole other can of worms, but hopefully people edit somewhat respectfully.
    I haven't seen any so far that hasn't been done that way. I don't always think they are improvements but I think all kinds of free dialogue are worthwhile and I hope that a lot of people use editing of my photos as a form of critique.
    ----------------------------


  25. #50
    Analog Photographer, Digital World Axle's Avatar
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    Re: Editing other peoples work

    Holy thread reserection Batman.

    Sorry, I had nothing to say in here until today. I'm a member at the forums at www.uer.ca. There is a photography section over there where we can post photos of our abandoned buildings. And also the sight of one of the worst examples of someone editing another person's work.

    A new member came in, grabbed a beautiful photo and added in three women in bathing suits, a fireball, and a beer glass. Probably the worst thing he could have done.

    So for me, I don't think it's fair to edit another person's work without their permission, and when you edit their work it shouldn't be over the top. I'd actually more discribe what this guy did as vandalism.

    End Rant.
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