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Thread: Canon or Nikon?

  1. #1
    Member benjikan's Avatar
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    Canon or Nikon?

    Canon or Nikon. Which Camera is More "Pro?"

    This was a Poll from another Forum. It was a Poll given by someone who in my opinion has been profoundly and inexorably brainwashed and as a result I felt compelled to leave the following message:

    My Heading: Neither...All Of and Anything that Can...

    This is a false premise...Most of the present day DSLR's can be used professionally. Whether it is Sony, Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Olympus, Sigma, Leica or Samsung. Ten million pixels is more than enough o be published in all types of magazines as well as most poster formats. I have been published using the Canon 350D, just to prove to myself that it doesn't really matter. I once used a Canon G5 circa 2002-3 5megapixel camera with hot-shoe and RAW capability and was also published with it.

    I am fed up with pixel peeping incompetents that spend most of their time scrutinizing the screen on the computer rather than enjoying the act of expression. If what you find joy in is the technical aspects of the anatomy of a camera, perhaps that may be the subject of your post. I can guarantee that if I gave you a 'Blad with a 39 mega pixel back it wouldn't improve on your capacity to express what you are expressing presently and until you understand the need to have "X-Zillion" Pixels, I suggest you spend more time perfecting your art. By doing so you may then ask yourself. Is the tool I am using limiting my capacity to express that which I need to express by being technically substandard? Is it therefore impeding my capacity to express myself? Give me a Nikon, Canon, Pentax, Sony, Leica, Olympus, Sigma or what ever and I will take images that will work because I know the support it will be utilized in.

    It is the photographer and not the camera that captures the image. It is through those eyes that we can see a part of the "ID" and what is important to the artist. It is the capturing of that moment that makes the individual unique. The decision as to when one captures the moment is crucial to his/her expression and not with which camera it was taken with.

    Ben

  2. #2
    project forum co-moderator Frog's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Totally agree!
    Keep Shooting!

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  3. #3
    don't tase me, bro! Asylum Steve's Avatar
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    Absolutely true, and yet...

    Ben, I can't agree with you more. And you can easily take this argument and extend it to other areas like music and athletics. Any creative field where you can spend large amounts of money on the equipment that's used to participate.

    It's the basic question of form vesus content. Is it the photographer? Or the camera? The musician? Or the guitar? The driver? Or the car?

    If you think of any creative field as a pyramid, it's important to understand that logically, the majority of the group is not going to be in that top third. And the lower down one is (IMO), the more likely they are to get much of their satisfaction from the "hardware" element, as they will often be lacking the vision aspect.

    And as most professionals in any creative field use better and more professional gear or tools (for the most part), those emulating them make (what they think is) a logical assumption that the two go hand in hand.

    Of course, many of us know this is not always true...

    Now, two old adages that most beginner photogs can't seem to wrap their brains around are one,

    by the time you know enough to use professional camera equipment, you probably don't need it

    and two,

    your most valuable skills as a photographer are your people skills.

    I for one, feel both of these are still true, especially the second.

    Ben, I don't have to tell you that, as a fashion and portrait photographer, your skill dealing with industry people is what gets you work, and your relationship with your model and stylists and the way you work with them is what ultimately makes your shot.

    Not the brand of camera you own...
    "Riding along on a carousel...tryin' to catch up to you..."

    -Steve
    Studio & Lighting - Photography As Art Forum Moderator

    Running the Photo Asylum, Asylum Steve's blogged brain pipes...
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  4. #4
    Not-so-recent Nikon Convert livin4lax09's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    problem is people love to see big numbers. If there's an 11 mp camera and a 6mp camera for the same price, it's obvious what they are going to buy, even if one is supposedly a better brand. Unless they realize "there may be a reason why they are the same price." But i think the main problem is that people just don't know all that much about digital electronics, and people have hyped MP. I dunno, all I know is that I still love my 4mp canon, and I would be happy with any camera with the same capabilities so that I could easily capture what I want to.

  5. #5
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Absolutely true, and yet...

    Quote Originally Posted by Asylum Steve
    If you think of any creative field as a pyramid, it's important to understand that logically, the majority of the group is not going to be in that top third. And the lower down one is (IMO), the more likely they are to get much of their satisfaction from the "hardware" element, as they will often be lacking the vision aspect.
    Very true with the world of guitars - some people almost seem surprised when the ___ artist signature version guitar doesn't make them sound like that person. That was a scary concept for me.

    This conversation has come up before obviously, but not recently here. I think new equipment has gotten to the point that upgrading every time something comes out just isn't necessary for 99% of people. I still have the same pros/cons with my Fuji S2. I know someone doing incredible work with a 10D. I do this as a hobby but have sold the occasional image and done a few event type jobs, and nobody has asked what kind of gear I use. I think there's an assumption that if you're hired, you'll have the equipment to do the job but that's really all that anybody cares about IME.

  6. #6
    Analog Photographer, Digital World Axle's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    I agree as well. The photographer is pro...not the camera.
    Alex Luyckx | Photography
    Capturing Beauty in Everything

  7. #7
    Senior Member Copy_Kot's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    "There isn't a photographer alive who could even make full use of a simple box camera." -Edward Steichen

    If you do not know who Edward Steichen is, check this link...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_Steichen

  8. #8
    Be serious Franglais's Avatar
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    Horrible question

    This question brings a couple of thoughts to mind:

    1. As you say, it is the person not the machine that does the job
    2. Attempts to classify material as "pro" or "amateur" are mostly amateur, like the habit manufacturers have of putting gold or red rings on their lenses - it's pretty, adds prestige but if your lens is just the plain black type that doesn't stop you using it
    3. What are the characteristics of a professional anyway? OK he/she gets most of his income from taking photos but what does that actually imply?

    I think that the essential characteristic of a professional is that he/she has to deliver. Having good material supports that goal - it doesn't break down, the optical performance is good in all circumstances, f2.8 zoom lenses are very versatile, the autofocus and flash systems are predictable, etc. Plus in case of need the photographer can count on the support of the manufacturer.

    Canon or Nikon? Both are good, but they have different product lines suited to different things.

    Charles

  9. #9
    Ex-Modster Old Timer's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Ditto!!! There always seems to be too much emphasis on what is used rather than what is produced.
    Don't forget about the Gallery. Are your photos there??


    Nikon Samurai #13

    "A photographer is known by what he shows not by what he throws. The best photographers have the biggest trash cans." Quote from Nikon School sometime in the early 1970's.

  10. #10
    Seasoned Amateur WesternGuy's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Ben, couldn't agree with you more. It is not what is behind the lens, but what is behind the eyes that counts IMHO.

    Cheers,

    WesternGuy

  11. #11
    Viewfinder and Off-Topic Co-Mod walterick's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Shoot from the heart. Upgrade your gear when there's something it won't let you do.
    Walter Rick Long
    Nikon Samurai, Mamiya Master, Velvia Bandit


    Check out the Welcome Thread

    My photography on Myspace

  12. #12
    Erstwhile Vagabond armed with camera Lionheart's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Quote Originally Posted by benjikan
    Canon or Nikon. Which Camera is More "Pro?"

    Ben
    If you know enough to use your camera to get the shot you saw in your vision, and you get paid for it, then it's a "pro" camera. Doesn't matter what brand or make. Speaking purely as a technogeek, "Pro" only matters to technogeeks (like me) who care that the camera they buy has the capability to do what we want it to do when we need it to. I don't make a living doing photography, but it is a big part of how I make my living, and having the right equipment to get the job done is important to a technogeek like myself, where things like resolution, the ability to shoot in RAW mode, have flash sync beyond the 1/focal length rule to prevent ghosting during handheld intraoral shots...etc, actually matter. To that end, yes, I care about the "pro" features of a camera, not because they are necessarily "pro", but because it allows me to use my camera for its intended use in my practice. We all have reasons to want the "pro" equipment, some for bragging rights (for those blessed/cursed with more money than common sense), some because we just want the best (well who doesn't?), some because the "pro" cameras actually have the features we want or need (imagine that), and some because they feel their ability is hampered by the current equipment they have (may or may not be true.).
    Yes, it drives me nuts to see some dude with more money than ability, toting $8k of camera and lens around their neck without a clue how to actually compose a good photograph, but art is in the eye of the beholder, so what some of us (speaking individually not communally) consider horrible photography might be a magnum opus for others (again speaking individually).
    just my two bits, take with a few grains of NaCl
    Leon
    Last edited by Lionheart; 04-08-2007 at 10:11 PM.
    Seek the Son and the shadows fall behind you.

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  13. #13
    Member benjikan's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    My Brother a Studio Musician, Touring Artist and Architect had this to say regarding my original post:

    Very true and a universal truth that can apply to pretty much any endeavor. A great, good or competent artist, entrepreneur, grand prix racer, truck driver,carpenter,athlete,or, you fill in the space, relies on their talent, abilities ,judgement and sixth sense. They can "perform" on any equipment. The difference between the quality of their "performance" on mediocre versus excellent equipment is minimal. The difference between the quality of the "performance" of a mediocre talent on mediocre versus excellent equipment is also minimal. Only a mediocre talent blames their equipment. A great, good or competent talent capitalizes on what they have.......

  14. #14
    Too square to be hip. almo's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Thank you.
    John Cowan
    Always do sober what you said you'd do drunk. That will teach you to keep your mouth shut.
    ~Ernest Hemingway~

  15. #15
    project forum co-moderator Frog's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    I keep wondering if the quality of paint brushes and/or paint has improved since Michaelangelos time.
    Keep Shooting!

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  16. #16
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Quote Originally Posted by benjikan
    My Brother a Studio Musician, Touring Artist and Architect had this to say regarding my original post
    Since you brought music up again , I've been a bass player longer than a photographer (or more accurately a guy who owns a camera...). One of my favorite players is best known for being on David Letterman's show but does a lot of studio work during the day and does some other live shows. He can play anything, any time and sight read but play it like he's been working on it for a long time (sight reading is playing thru a chart the first time you see it, no rehersal). That's pretty unbelieveable but I've seen him live a couple of times.

    There was an interview with him once where he had to fill in for someone and didn't have one of his own basses. He used the studio's bass which was horribly set up. A few minutes with some tools and a new set of strings and it was passible but nowhere near the grade of instrument that he usually plays. Everyone said it still sounded like "him" though...

  17. #17
    Erstwhile Vagabond armed with camera Lionheart's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    Since you brought music up again , I've been a bass player longer than a photographer (or more accurately a guy who owns a camera...). One of my favorite players is best known for being on David Letterman's show but does a lot of studio work during the day and does some other live shows. He can play anything, any time and sight read but play it like he's been working on it for a long time (sight reading is playing thru a chart the first time you see it, no rehersal). That's pretty unbelieveable but I've seen him live a couple of times.

    There was an interview with him once where he had to fill in for someone and didn't have one of his own basses. He used the studio's bass which was horribly set up. A few minutes with some tools and a new set of strings and it was passible but nowhere near the grade of instrument that he usually plays. Everyone said it still sounded like "him" though...
    I agree that the pro can use any instrument given to him or her, but I will beg to differ here when it comes to certain musical instruments. The instrument can and DOES make a difference, maybe not to the untrained ears of the listener, but it makes a lot of difference to the musician. I play piano, violin and trumpet to some semblance of competence, my wife plays piano, organ and flute (played in band and orchestra while in school) and took masters classes in organ performance while in college, and my 10 year old son is a prodigy on piano, and also plays violin, trumpet, flute, and just about any musical instrument he comes upon, and believe me, the instrument does make a difference, even starting out. Actually in the case of violins, it can make all the difference in the world to a beginner. A good violin is easier to tune correctly and stays tuned during practice sessions, and there is nothing worse than strings slipping during a practice session and having to constantly hunt and compensate for the correct finger position and pressure to exact the correct note on an instrument that won't stay tuned. On a larger stringed instrument there is more room for error, but on a violin, a fraction of a hairwidth is the difference between being flat or sharp. A cheap violin is also harder to extract good sound from as well, and for a student still struggling to learn fingering and have to strain to extract good sound while also learning proper bowing technique on an instrument that can't produce it, well, I guarantee that student won't last long during practice sessions and may learn to hate music. My son was blessed with some serious musical talent (he won 2nd place in a music competition-classical music, original scoring, no variations, closed doors, just him and 5 judges, the head judge was Peter Jaffe, director and conductor of the Stockton symphony- at 9 years of age with 18 months of formal piano training against 12 year olds who had studied for 5 to 6 years on average last year), he's also been blessed with having parents who understand the impact a good instrument can have when you're just starting out. We were lucky that some church members pass on an heirloom 1/2 size violin that's about 100 years old and performs beautifully, giving it freely to us, asking only that when Andrew is done with it, that we pass it on to the next worthy student. His violin is actually much nicer than mine, but mine works just fine, and in another 70 years, will probably sound as good as his 100 year old violin. On a trumpet, a poor instrument is extremely tiring to play-I know, I started out with a POS rental trumpet that beat the bejeebers out of me as a kid. That's not to say it can't be played well, just that it is exhausting to extract sound from it, and if you have to practice even 30 minutes a day on a poor instrument, believe me, your starting student will lose all their love for that instrument in no time at all. Piano is a little more forgiving, as long as it's tuned, even a poor piano can be lived with, although having to adjust your finger pressure between your piano and the one your piano teacher uses can be annoying for the first 10 minutes of the lesson.
    again, just my two bits, take with a teaspoon of NaCl
    Leon
    Last edited by Lionheart; 04-09-2007 at 09:11 AM.
    Seek the Son and the shadows fall behind you.

    slowly inching to 2000

    Mac's Rule, Windblows drools
    Friends don't let Friends use WindBlows XPee
    <img src="http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v11/schrackman/clover.jpg">Lionheart O'Canon Feel Free to Help

  18. #18
    Panarus biarmicus Moderator (Sports) SmartWombat's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Paint probably, brushes, I doubt it.
    PAul

    Scroll down to the Sports Forum and post your sports pictures !

  19. #19
    has-been... another view's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lionheart
    That's not to say it can't be played well, just that it is exhausting to extract sound from it, and if you have to practice even 30 minutes a day on a poor instrument, believe me, your starting student will lose all their love for that instrument in no time at all.
    Very true - I'm very particular about instrument setup, exactly how strings are changed, how everything is set up from the instrument all the way to the connection it gets to the PA system. It's easier for me to play like me, sound like me, and have any dexterity left after three hours if I do this. A crappy instrument (at least in the world of guitar or bass) can usually be set up fairly well in the hands of a good tech (not necessarily the first one you come across) but there's a difference both in playibility and tone with a better instrument. Good tone is inspiring in itself - I can easily relate to that.

    Same is true with cameras. Ever seen someone shooting with a really dirty UV filter in front of their lens? You're not going to get the best results that way, obviously. Lightweight tripod on a windy day with the center column up all the way? Same deal. We learn tricks, like how to clean lenses (and when not to use UV filters ) and like keeping the center column down and weighing the tripod a bit with your camera bag to increase stability. Same gear + more technical know-how usually = better results. I also agree that (extreme example) a pinhole isn't going to do a great job for a wildlife photographer - but equipment shouldn't be the first thing that's questioned.

  20. #20
    Senior Member freygr's Avatar
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    Quote Originally Posted by another view
    clip.......
    but equipment shouldn't be the first thing that's questioned.
    How true.....

    But as you see with the auditions for American Idol allot people have not an once of idea that they suck big time, and it's not just for singing!

    :cryin:
    GRF

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  21. #21
    MJS
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    Re: Canon or Nikon?

    I love this one. Develop the space between the ears and behind the eyes, so you can shoot what you see in your heart.
    Michael
    Nikon Samurai #8
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