About "Photo Critique"

[MarcusK]

Well, i am guessing this is where i need to post this thread...

What i want to say about photo critique, is basically that whenever someone posts a pic, there are too many variables that are not being taken into consideration here. I have been reading comments about colors, and tonality and what not... most comments i have read here, about my own or others' pictures have all been extremely helpful!

But let us not forget that how you (anyone) sees a picture on your system, is bound to be different from mine. From LCD calibration, to operating system and graphics card.

What i have an issue with also, is that 90% of the times, the comments are purely 100% technical. There are no artistic comments, there are no criticism of the approach to a particular subject.

Now, i am gonna spend some time and think of a possible options for us to reach common ground here, and i sure would love if you guys out there have some or are prepared to find any.

Respects,
Marc

[another view]

All very good points. I don't get to Critique too often, but this has been an ongoing issue. One of the best things that you can do when you post a shot is to ask specifically what you're looking for, and maybe what you're not looking for as well to try to keep the conversation on track.

mtbbrian is the moderator of that forum and will probably see this thread soon.

[Trevor Ash]

You're right, however...

One of the best things that you can do when you post a shot is to ask specifically what you're looking for, and maybe what you're not looking for as well

[Photo-John]

I agree. But technical questions are a lot easier to answer and most people aren't as educated about how to evaluate and talk about content and meaning. I would also like to see more discussion about those things on the Photo Critique forum. I ocassionally post on that forum and offer my opinions about meaning and content. To me, they separate the art from the craft of photography.

I agree that the best way to get more of what you want is to ask for it. So gracefully accept the technical advice when it's offered. And then post a reply yourself that asks for content-related feedback. It's also good to be a leader and example. So you show people the way. Start posting comments and feedback about content on other people's photos. I think that would be great. And it will raise the level of dialogue on the Photo Critique forum and make it a more valuable place.

[MarcusK]

Thanks guys...and yes i agree the best way for me is to ask for what i want or not want...

I guess what i was hoping for was something to get the majority to behave in that fashion..

As for technical being easier... Also agree, but the thing i keep telling myself is, that people are the final critics of any photo... educated critics can evaluate the full value....but the true value of my images for me, is the opinion of the technically-challenged

But then again, you're right... might as well start doing it myself before wishing everyone did!

Thank you all for the input...

Hoping.....Marc

[Photo-John]

Also agree, but the thing i keep telling myself is, that people are the final critics of any photo... educated critics can evaluate the full value....but the true value of my images for me, is the opinion of the technically-challenged

It's the same for me. I consider a photo the most successful when it has the absolute broadest appeal. The more people an image connects with, the better the job I did. Of course, there are different markets for different types of content. I have learned that most of my mountain bike photos will leave most of the people here unmoved - even though mountain bikers generally love them. The subject is just too alien and non-mountain bikers miss the subtleties. On the other hand, if I do get an mtb photo that the average person appreciates, then that photo must be really, really good!

[MarcusK]

Ronnoco, thanks for the input, after posting i realized that i forgot to mention composition... There are some mentions about composition, true... i am not saying the photo-critique section is wrong... all i am saying is that there is not enough input on the artistic level... as in the mood... the message... i just like to see more, since all the rest has been so helpful...

John, although i am not a fan of mtb, anything outdoors and with action i enjoy.... and yes... it has a totally different effect, when an image reaches a wider audience..

Thanks again guys,
Marc

[Ronnoco]

That is not quite true Marcus. There are two elements to critique: technique and composition. Composition is the artistic part but both are necessary elements and both are discussed in Photo Critique.

Content narrowly defined is not part of Photo Critique. The artistic part of photography is that using your technical skills and artistic vision how do you present and make the content of your photo effective and full of impact in an emotional sense.

Ronnoco

[Speed]

I guess you have a different take on the Critique Forum than I do. I see the Critique Forum as a learning tool. This is what you did wrong, this is what you did right, this is how you can improve.

If you're looking for more comments on the aesthetics of a photo, then the Studio and Lighting forum is one place to check out. That's where people can get more creative than technical.

http://forums.photographyreview.com/...splay.php?f=11

If you really are after creative inspiration/feedback, then the Photography as Art forum is for you.

http://forums.photographyreview.com/...splay.php?f=42

Just my two cents worth, trying to be helpful.

[MarcusK]

Speed,

I completely agree as to why the Critique forum is there... to help us improve...and as Photo-John (if i recall) posted in one of the threads, both the critic and the criticized learn from the process...

I am not looking for cancelling one in favor of the other, which seems to be the case... So when we talk about the artistic approach...if we don't like it for example, we still need to talk about how it could have been improved....

I want BOTH sides to be included....

As for the other 2 forums, well they are specific as to what they discuss... And i believe that Photography as Art, is more a reference to the "Fine Arts" photography rather than "The Art of Photography"

Dunno if this clarifies my point of view, and/or if you agree

Marc

[Speed]

I agree with you there Marc.

Maybe the forums are too specific. You do have to have both sides, a properly composed and exposed photo, as well as a beautiful photo for it to have any impact. A properly exposed photo of a blade of grass is boring. Put a butterfly on that blade of grass, and you have something beautiful.

Personally, I get the technical side of things. I understand stops, apetures, rule of thirds, etc.

Trying to be "artistic" is the challenge for me.

Maybe we all need to try to incorporate more of the "why" we like an image into our critiques.

[gahspidy]

This has been brought up quite a number of times over the past about what is expected from members in the critique forum. I think a good suggestion was asking for what it is you specifically would like critique in. I personally think there is room in the critique forum for all technical related issues, composition, and subject matter as well. There are lots photographers that are just starting out and may offer up an " I like it" or "does not work for me", which is fine but should be backed up with a what and why. Whatever ones comments may be, some sort of explanation or reason should be given. The reasons or explanations can vary with a members level of experience, and thats ok. We all have to keep in mind that this forum is open to all levels of experience. I'm happy when I see new members come to the boards, especially those who are just starting out in photography, and see them stick around because they feel that the environment on this forum is one that friendly and condusive to learning. When I found this forum back in 2004, the thing that i was so impressed with was the generosity of the members here and the good natured, well meaning advice and critique that I recieved. It was what kept me around.
I agree with you when you speak of addressing artistic approach or subject matter, and I too value the comments from those who seek to look deeper and beyond just the technical side of it.
I'm glad you have found us here. I have enjoyed the dialogue and your perspective on things in your posts on the forum.

[MarcusK]

Gary, thanks, and i must admit, this is the best forum i have been to so far... even when i wasn't as active as i am nowadays, i would critique (i had no images posted yet) and everyone would take it all in... and even now as i am starting to share my own photos.... even whent the criticism is "rough" (Ronnoco comes to mind ) it does not feel offensive.... i can feel the sharing of own perspectives and information....

Other than that, something about the whole forum and the way eveyone is talking to each other, makes you feel welcome, even if all you wanna do is read and say nothing...

As opposed to many other forums where it feels "robotic"....which is partly why i was asking about getting more into the artistic approach WITH the explanations of course...

Marc

[Ronnoco]

and even now as i am starting to share my own photos.... even whent the criticism is "rough" (Ronnoco comes to mind ) it does not feel offensive.... i can feel the sharing of own perspectives and information....Marc

Thanks Marcus, I think. I try to be detailed and matter-of-fact in my critique and remember that when I was just starting out at age 11 in a semi-professional competition forum, everyone was detailed and matter-of-fact critiquing my work and no one took into account that I was very young. At the same time however all critique had some logic to it and none was based on simply personal taste or vague meaningless comments. I learned a great deal from that approach and eventually rose to the top in competition.

My perspective is different from many in that my mother was a natural, extremely artistic photographer, so I was looking at photos and learning about photography from day one. I have been taking photos and doing video longer than anyone here and all kinds from artistic through to photo-journalism.

The result is that I look at things differently but variety makes for interest and provoking some thought. I hope.

Ronnoco

[Mr Yuck]

Thanks Marcus, I think. I try to be detailed and matter-of-fact in my critique and remember that when I was just starting out at age 11 in a semi-professional competition forum, everyone was detailed and matter-of-fact critiquing my work and no one took into account that I was very young. At the same time however all critique had some logic to it and none was based on simply personal taste or vague meaningless comments. I learned a great deal from that approach and eventually rose to the top in competition.

My perspective is different from many in that my mother was a natural, extremely artistic photographer, so I was looking at photos and learning about photography from day one. I have been taking photos and doing video longer than anyone here and all kinds from artistic through to photo-journalism.

The result is that I look at things differently but variety makes for interest and provoking some thought. I hope.

Ronnoco

I too learn a lot from Ronnoco and others like him.

It's a good idea to ask for what kind of critique you want (wow...that's horrible wording but i'm too tired to be able to translate that)

I try to post some artistic critique along with technical when I do, sometimes one or the other. (I, like most of the others, am here to learn)

[MarcusK]

Ronnoco, yes...that was a compliment... although many others do give equally great advice...it is the method in which you deliver it that i appreciate....

Call me old fashioned, but the blunt truth is what matters....add to it technical knowledge and you get quite a good form of critique....

I still try to go to other forums that a friend or 2 would tell me about.... but cant seem to stick!! this is where i am learning the most....specifically from the digital photography point of view....! I think i need to start sharing some of the more pro images i am taking, but that will be by March....

In any case, maybe its just the season, but it already feels that there is more of a mix in the critique (i am not taking credit of it....at least only in my mind )

Looking forward to whatever improvements are being made!

Marc

[readingr]

Marc,

I totally agree and I sometimes (Note sometimes) give my feelings as well as the technical feedback of the photo.

From now on I will do better on the emotional feedback, but sometimes I'm worried my ramblings may not make sense to others. (Split personality, weired sense of humour and all )

Roger

[Greg McCary]

Markus, I too will try and add more input on the artistic side of things when I critique. I feel the same way as you about the issue. The critique forum is the biggest reason I am here. I have visited other sites but feel this one is by far the best. I feel that my skills have improved very rapidly in all aspects from how I approach a subject in the field to how I post process it when I get home.
The reason I feel that the PR forum is the best, is the level of help that one gets. It's like learning to play golf and getting to play with Tiger Woods everyday. Also there has been some real inspirations on here as well. How sweet it is...
Greg

[trog100]

well marc i have read your thread.. i post the odd picture in the "photo" critique forum and make the odd "critique"..

but i have problems.. my views of what make a good "photograph" do not match the majority.. i do not feel i belong..

i see more art than good photography.. i see far too much reliance being placed on out of camera image maniplulation.. i see far too many small crops that are not even a "photograph" to me.. just pieces selected out of a different "photograph"..

i see some good artistic ideas.. but not very good "photographs" mostly..

should i stay and attempt to contribute or simply move on to somewhere more in tune with my thinking is the thought that is pretty much always on my mind..

my honest thoughts.. take them for what they are worth.. something or nothing..

trog

[Ronnoco]

but i have problems.. my views of what make a good "photograph" do not match the majority.. i do not feel i belong..

trog

I think trog, that you need to realize that there is a considerable range of experience in this forum. There are those with only a few years of photographic experience and in some cases with a limited camera who have not even seen a large number of photos. Their view is based more on what they like rather than any standards. There are those who are taking courses that range from those who know little about this craft and yet are very opinionated to those with talent and a willingness to learn. Even among the pros, there are those with a very limited specialization who are not keeping up with what is going on in their area of expertise, through to those with generally good skills and knowledge in all areas of photography.

To evaluate your own views of what makes a good "photograph", versus that of others, you need to honestly assess where you fit in, in terms of knowledge and experience.

Recognize whether you may have a lot to learn or the other person may have a lot to learn and go from there. Even if someone here by their opinion forces you to recheck your information and knowledge to justify your view, then it has been a valuable learning experience. Fitting in, in my opinion is not necessary. Learning is and learning is always useful and profitable for everyone.

My toonie!

Ronnoco

[MarcusK]

Trog, i enjoy reading your comments, there is lightness to them and a sense of humour, as for your opinion as to what makes a good photograph, it is yours... even if you are the only one who has such an opinion, doesn't make it wrong or any less important!

As to what photos you like to add, and how you see them, Like Ronnoco said, it is simply a matter of justifying your point of view...saying for example that you dont like the composition, when everyone else likes it, is the same as liking it when they all do.... This post, is all about justifying the point of view as well as having both approaches to an image....

If you wanna talk about how you "feel" about an image, justify.....technically.....justify.....whatever your opinion, justify..... That is the whole point of the learning process.... no one is forcing anyone in any direction.....just justify yourself whatever the point you're making is!

In the end, that is what i feel the Photo Critique section should be about, and i believe that, at least the "veteran" members here, should try to help the mod, and remind all those who comment to justify their comments regardless of whether they like or dont like!

Leaving this forum just because your views are different, is like adding a witch to an image... pointless!

Marc

[another view]

my views of what make a good "photograph" do not match the majority..

I don't necessarily see anything wrong with that. Critiques are a difficult thing to give - especially in a forum where we're looking at one image and don't really know the other person. If someone has seen a lot of your work then they can start to understand where you're coming from, but that usually isn't the case here or probably on any site. I've had shots that I've been very happy with but other people don't like. I had a shot that I submitted to a contest feeling like it was the weakest of the ten - but that's the one that got a first prize. I felt even better about my shots in another contest and didn't win anything. Shoot for you, and don't take individual critiques as the final word. Everyone sees everybody else's work differently...