Novice lighting help

[trizzypballr]

I want to start off by saying that I am a total novice to picture taking. I actually breed reptiles and that is the reason I am asking this question. Obviously when selling something online the better the picture you are able to take the more interest you will get in what you have to sell. I see a lot of reptile breeders who take great close up shots of their reptiles on bright white backgrounds, and this is what I am trying to learn to be able to do myself. The best way to explain what I am trying to accomplish is to show you a good example of what I am trying to achieve, so here is an example from another breeder:


I was told that lighting was my problem so I went out and purchased a light tent. It is a 20 inch cube with 2 26 watt 5000k fluorescent bulbs and the white cloth backround. Here is a quick snap shot to show you my setup so you can see exactly what im working with (Please ignore the fixtures above the tent, they are just being stored there not being used) :


My problem is that I cannot get anywhere near the desired lighting of the first pic that I posted, here is an example of the best pic that I was able to take (ignore the crease in the fabric, havent gotten around to ironing it out yet) :


That is one of the BEST pictures ive been able to take lighting wise so far. That picture was taken with my point and click, I just picked up my first DSLR last night, I will snap a quick pic in a few minutes so you can see what I am getting with it light wise. Keep in mind ive never used a DSLR before so I am still learning, and any kind of constructive criticism is greatly appreciated.

Ive chatted with a photographer in another forum who seemed to really know what he was talking about, but insisted that I invest in large studio flashes that were not only out of my price range, but take a lot more space than I have. Another note on top of that is the fact that since I am taking pictures of reptiles I cannot be using extremely high wattage light bulbs because it will be hot and freak them out. The albinos especially will not appreciate it.

[trizzypballr]

Ok, I now have 2 more quick shots to show you what I was able to get with my DSLR. Keep in mind I am still learning how to use this camera, and honestly all I did was set the white balance. Being a total beginner, I am not understanding why the image is darker on the image that I zoomed in on, when the camera was on a tripod and the image in the same place. If the lights and flash are still the exact same distance away why does the lighting change when zooming? Here are 2 examples of what I snapped.





Everyones input is greatly appreciated :-)

[OldClicker]

You light box is fine. Mine is just a cardboard box with the sides and top cut out and white trash bag taped over the holes.

Fluorescent bulbs are not very hot. If you need more light, try 50 or 100 watt 'daylight' flourescents. You can use room light to set up and just turn them on for the shots.

I don't think the zoomed image is any darker, look at the label. I think the blue-white to darker blue-white background is a white balance problem.

To give us more to work with, what DSLR and lens(es)? What post processing software do you have?

TF

[trizzypballr]

As far as post processing I know absolutely nothing. That is a photo I pulled right off of the camera. I am shooting a Nikon D5000 and the lense I shot that photo with is an AF-S Nikkor 18-55mm. As far as the lights, I am getting alittle confused. I hate to be a pain and ask for specifics, but I am totally lost on what lights I actually need. Here is a link to the kit I purchased that the bulbs came in so you can see exactly what im working with. Click Here

What lights are you suggesting I try? you say 50-100 watts, but what K and what lumen am I looking for? I also grabbed some crystal clear lights from walmart that were like 200 watt and like 4700 lumen but they seemed to look worse color wise.

As far as the white balance goes, on my Nikon it has a custom white balance setting for fluorescent light (5000k) and that is exactly what my 2 lights are suppose to be, could the white balance still be a problem or does that mean we can rule the white balance out?



EDIT:
I just wanted to note, that post processing is actually frowned apon when dealing with the sales of reptiles since the worth of the reptile sometimes pertains to the intensity of its color. For example certain geckos, the oranger it is, the more its worth. So if possible I would like to avoid playing with the colors of the photo in photoshop.

One other question I have when you say 50-100 watt bulb, the Compact fluorescent 26 watt bulbs im using supposedly are equal to 100 watt bulbs. Do you think adding a bulb from the top or back, or both would help? It would have to be the same bulb as im using already of course, or do you have a different bulb you recommend?

[OldClicker]

You are not being a pain at all. Ask until you understand.

Are your bulbs the standard screw-in base like these?

http://www.homedepot.com/Lighting-Fa...atalogId=10053

If so, you can find larger ones at any home store. As for adding bulbs, I would use all the same or you will end up with mixed colors. Don't mix the lights and your flash. I use one on each side and one on top most of the time. The image you posted shows the shadow mostly straight under the critter, so I would say they used mostly (all???) top lighting. As you practice you will learn what lighting gives you what effects. Also, ask here any time.

I find the Flourescent White Balance setting on mine needs help. I'm not a Nikon shooter, so cannot give you specifics on the D5000, but I don't think that we need anything special yet.

There is no such thing as a non-processed digital image. The computer in the camera is no more 'ethical' than the computer on your desk top. What is ethical is to make the image as close to the actual as you can. What processing software comes with the Nikon?

Getting close is what is going to be your problem at this point. The min focus distance on your lens is about 1 foot.

Try this next (Any questions, just ask. A year ago, I didn't now what any of this was either.):
- Set you camera up with as solid a base as you can. Tripod at a minimum. Maybe a bean bag would be more solid. Do you have a remote realease? If not, use the timer. Use mirror lock up if the 5000 has it.
- Set the camera on ISO= 200 and Aperture Priority. Set the aperture at f/16. Set the White Balance to Auto.
- Set the lens at maximum zoom (55mm), Manual Focus and focus almost as close as it will go (almost may be a little sharper than all the way). Place the camera so that the sensor (not the end of the lens) is about 1 foot away from the glue bottle and then move it foreward and back until you have the best focus you can get. I believe that the 5000 has a zoom-in Live View that you can use to get the focus. When you get it as good as you can, move the focus ring and see if you can get it better.
- Take the shot (remember - remote, mirror lock up, timer) and see what you get.

TF

[trizzypballr]

So if I am using the lighting on the light box I should have my flash turned off? Maybe that is why I am not getting a totally white background?

I am not questioning what you are telling me to do with the timer, just curious so I know myself, why should i put it on a timer to take the pic? Also how long? I am checking the manual right now to see if I have a mirror lock up (Even though Im not sure what it is. LoL) Thank you for your tips, I will snap a few new pics as soon as I find the info I need in my manual and post my results:-)

As far as the software goes believe it or not I actually didnt install it yet, just got the camera last night and ive been so excited, reading threw the manual and practicing with different settings and such that I havent actually installed the Nikon software yet. I will do that now before I go snap anymore to see what we have to work with here :-)

[OldClicker]

Yes, leave the flash off. The flash will be a different color than the lighs.

Camera motion is always a major concern in getting sharp images. When you start taking macros (close-ups), you still have the normal up/down and side to side motion. But because the depth of focus is so shallow (sometime just a few millimeters or less) the front to back motion becomes even more critical. Pushing the shutter button causes motion. If you use the timer, it has time to stop moving before it takes the shot. Two seconds is long enough.

With an SLR, you have a mirror that directs the light up to the viewfinder. Since the sensor is behind the mirror, the mirror has to be lifted out of the way to take the shot. 'Mirror slap' is another cause of movement. With some cameras, you can make the mirror go up before the shot and give the camera time to stop moving. I'm not sure how the D5000 handles the mirror when using its main sensor Live View. It may already be up in Live View mode.

Stay excited and have fun. I bet there are many on the Nature & Wildlife site that would love to see your critter shots.

TF

[trizzypballr]

Here are my newest results, using all of the settings stated above:
- ISO= 200
- Aperture Priority
- Aperture at f/16
- White Balance to Auto
- full zoom 55mm
- switched focus to manual
- started a foot away from the sensor, picture ended up being snapped at about 10 inches from the sensor

This image is using 2, 26 watt 5000k 5000 lumen bulbs


I could not buy a 3rd bulb anywhere around here, I would have to pick one up online so I grabbed different bulbs so I could try with a 3rd light source coming into the light tent.

This image is using 3, 26 watt 6500k(sunlight) 1650 lumen bulbs (1 from each side and 1 from the top)



A quick question about bulbs, the lumens is actually how bright of light is coming out of the bulb correct? So technically 1 of my other bulbs(5000 lumen) was pumping out more light than all 3 of the new ones(1650 * 3 = 4950) ? Should I look online to purchase another 5000k 5000 lumen bulb the same as my other 2 or will we be able to make things work with the 3 that I just grabbed from walmart?

[OldClicker]

Lumen is a measurement of light output, but who knows how they measure it. The first shot was at a shutter speed of 1/6 second and the second at 1/13 which would indicate that the second was twice as bright.

Here is your second shot with adjustment to the WB, exposure and contrast. These are all things that can be adjusted in the camera if you do not want to mess with post processing. I cannot get your background perfectly white.



I assume that you are shooting in jpg file format. Are you using the maximum Quality and Size? (Not sure of the Nikon terms, but the best.)

TF

[OldClicker]

Here is a shot I took in the light box using glossy white poster paper as the background.



Here is the light box. (I'm using green paper and the top light isn't on.) These are just $10 clamp on shop lights from Home Depot with the 100W daylight flourescents. I think that the bulb laying there is a 50W.



TF

[Don Kondra]

Your shot with a third light on the top was the most successful....if you shine the top light more towards the background that will help turn it white. I would first place it almost at the front top and angle it about 45 degrees to the back. Move it around till it suits you

For lights I recommend Alzo Digital, they have 27, 45 and 85w CF bulbs @ 5500k.

http://alzodigital.com/online_store/...ment_lamps.htm

Cheers, Don

[trizzypballr]

I snapped a few more pictures trying to learn the settings and such. Anyone mind giving some input and pointers?

mode- aperture priority
aperture = f16
ISO - 200
used a timer
zoomed 55mm
Instead of using Auto White Balance I manually set the white balance by turning all of the lighting on and setting it off of the white cloth backing



I took the shot in RAW so I could try to edit it in Capture NX 2 that came with my camera. I found a setting called White Control Point. It looks as if it sets the white balance by choosing something that is suppose to be white? (Please correct me if im wrong because this was purely an educated guess) Here was what I got when doing so. The white backround looks great, but I think that it messed with the object colors a good bit.


Lastly here is another picture I took and changed the exposure from 0 to +1. Once again the background seemed to turn out nice and white like I want, but the image looks like its colors were also effected by the over exposure. Any ideas besides just getting more lighting?

[OldClicker]

Try toning down the colors with 'contrast' or 'saturation' and see if that is what you are looking for.

Another thing - Unless you and your potential buyer have good, calibrated monitors, you are very unlikely to see the same colors or brightness anyway.

EDIT - Your shutter speed is about 1/6 second, so your lighting is probably OK as long as you keep the camera AND the subject perfectly still. If they are going to move on you, you need more light so you can increase the shutter speed.

TF

[Frog]

Just to let you all know I'm reading and learning here.
Love your light box, TF.

[trizzypballr]

I actually got another breeder to give me some info on how he takes pictures. He actually uses an Alien Bees flash the B400 model The unit costs around $225 and $40 for the stand for it. Do you think this is overkill for what I am trying to do, or do you think it would be my best solution? His picture is awesome, but if I can get to that point without spending almost $300 that would be great :-) On the other hand if I cant touch that quality without it then its most likely what I will do. He also noted that he is using a 60mm macro f-stop at 11, and a shutter speed of 1/125. Im assuming I would need alot more light for a shutter speed that fast? Here is one of his pics as an example:

[trizzypballr]

Try toning down the colors with 'contrast' or 'saturation' and see if that is what you are looking for.

Another thing - Unless you and your potential buyer have good, calibrated monitors, you are very unlikely to see the same colors or brightness anyway.

EDIT - Your shutter speed is about 1/6 second, so your lighting is probably OK as long as you keep the camera AND the subject perfectly still. If they are going to move on you, you need more light so you can increase the shutter speed.

TF

Toning them down, incorporated with +1 exposure? Or toning down the first pic I posted that had nothing done to it?

[OldClicker]

A flash gives off a lot more light which you are going to need to get to 1/125 sec shutter speed and a $450 macro lens lets you get closer and is sharper than your $100 kit lens. Throwing money at it will make it easier, but you still have to practice and learn how to take a good image.

Is my fur cone above good enough? ISO= 100, F/11, 1/6th sec shutter speed with a good 100mm macro lens. But fur cones don't move.

What other types of photos do you want to take? The Alien Bees stuff is only good for a studio type set up. If you are going to do other types of shooting, a standard Nikon flash may be a better investment.

TF

[trizzypballr]

The majority of photos I will be taking for now at least will be reptile photos. I would like to use it for other things though also of course. I have a 3 year old so in a year or 2 she will probably be in dance or gymnastics or something like that. I also plan on using it for holidays and get togethers, realisticly though ill be using it at least once a week for reptile shots. Do you think a nikon flash would actually cut it?

[jetrim]

What you can do immediately - set the white balance manually. Where you found the fluorescent setting is the menu where you'll set a manual white balance. The idea is that you want to shoot something white, so if you remove the loctite and just shoot the background it will adjust exactly for the color temperature of the lights you have now. Do set the third light as suggested, shining on the backdrop from the front. That should cure all your color problems. Set your contrast and saturation to normal (they may not be right out of the box). Set your light metering to spot meter (the dot). Zoom all the way out and set your aperture as low as it will go (probably f/4) this would seem backward, but the lower the f/ number, the more light is allowed to enter which gives you the ability to use faster shutter speeds.

What to do going forward - watch e-bay and craigslist for used studio lights. I recently picked up a set of 4 broncolor heads with a ton of accessory modifiers (softboxes, umbrellas, grids, reflectors, barndoors, gels, diffusers, stands, IR wireless trigger) that fit in a rolling case the size of a full size suitcase, for less than it would cost to buy 2 bare AlienBees heads, and broncolor is the rolls-royce of studio lighting.

BTW For you and anyone else following along, AWB is NOT Auto white balance, it stands for Average White Band, and your background is going dark because the camera's computer is trying to get you subject into the 18% gray tonal range. Further, the higher the f/ stop number the more color saturation occurs, that's another reason to keep it to the lowest number possible if color values are critical.

[trizzypballr]

Thank you for the pointers. I cannot find anywhere to check my contrast and saturation settings though. I went threw the whole manual and cannot find anything at all. It doesnt even list contrast or saturation in the back to look up what pages it would be on. I am using a Nikon D5000 if that helps you explain to me where to find it at all

[jetrim]

The .pdf user's manual may prove helpful for this and future questions:
http://support.nikontech.com/app/ans...C2/r_id/116678

From page 33 of that manual I found something that might simplify things for you - scene modes. If you set the scene mode to "Hi Key" it may solve most, if not all your problems automatically. See attached for instruction on where to find the "Hi Key" option and what the specific icon looks like...

[jetrim]

If this doesn't help, you can find instructions on adjusting sharpness, contrast, & saturation on page 107 of the printed manual or the 125th screen of the .pdf They are buried in a submenu under "Picture Control"

[trizzypballr]

Here is an example zoomed the whole way out, I was able to turn the f down to 3.5


Here is an example zoomed in just to see how it would turn out: f=5.6


As far as the f stop goes, I was told before that I would need to use around f11 to be able to get the shutter speed down to around 1/125? Im still very new to all of this, if someone could explain better it would be greatly appreciated. I noticed that when I zoomed in with the low f value it almost looks as if the picture is over exposed?

Thanks again and all input on these pics would be greatly appreciated.

[OldClicker]

Back up…

Three things in non-flash photography affect how light the image is:

- ISO - If you double the ISO number (i.e. 200 to 400), you double the amount of light.

- Aperture - The aperture is the hole in the lens. The wider the aperture (lower the f/stop) the more light. The common stops are 2.8, 4, 5.6, 8, 11, and 22. Going down 1 stop is twice as much light.

- Shutter Speed - The slower the shutter speed, the more light. Half the shutter speed (1/125sec to 1/60 sec - note the rounding) is twice the light.

Each of these also has a secondary effect.

The higher the ISO, the more 'noise' in the image. Most cameras have a native ISO= 200. If you need more light, you can raise it until the noise is objectionable.

The wider the aperture, the shallower the depth of focus (DoF). This is how much is in focus from front to back. If having the head only in focus is what you want, set the aperture as low as you can to get as much light as you can. If you need the whole reptile to be in focus to the tip of the tail, you will need to need to set the f/stop to a higher number. The first example you showed was f/stop= 7.1. Note that only the head is in focus.

The slower the shutter speed, the more likely the motion (camera and subject) will make the image blurry. If everything is rock steady, you may get away with 1/6 second. If the little guy is scooting around the light box, you may need 1/500.

For non-flash, these are all you have to work with for exposure.

Set your zoom.
Set you lights, White Balance and Spot Focus as Jetrim advised.
Set your ISO.
Set to Aperture Priority and set your f/stop.
The camera will set the shutter speed to get what it thinks is the correct exposure.
Take the shot and look at it – is the exposure OK? (Not whiteness, brightness)
If the exposure is not OK, adjust one of the three or add/subtract lights to the lightbox. (To change the shutter speed, use exposure compensation.)

Keep shooting and you will get it.

TF

[jetrim]

I noticed that when I zoomed in with the low f value it almost looks as if the picture is over exposed?

Thanks again and all input on these pics would be greatly appreciated.

the first shot was at f/3.46 and 1/320sec exposure time - shutter speed was much too fast so it's under exposed

the second shot had 1/40sec exposure time and that's why it's brighter at a higher f/stop and it's probably just slightly over exposed.

Did you bother trying to set up the Hi Key scene mode, or did I waste an hour looking it up for no apparent reason? (just curious because the EXIF data states Scene Capture Type = standard (0))