Tips for shooting high speed action shots w/ Rebel xt

[zachdank]

I don't know if this is the right forum to post in. I just purchased a canon rebel XT, and i am a total beginner. I've read the manuals from start to finish. I want to shoot some mountain bike action shots. I was wondering what would be the best settings to use for this. I've taken a handfull of shots, but i know i have a long way to go. I want a crisp clear subject. Nothing abstract or streaky. Don't know the terms that you guys use to describe these things. Here are a couple of shots that i have taken. I'm not happy with them.
Thanks for the help in advance.
Like i said, I'm a total beginner with little knollege of digital cameras.

[JSPhoto]

Welcome zachdank,

I don't shoot bikes but I can see in the bottom shot it appears you used flash. If it is the built in flash it isn't enough to get a real good shot from any distance, you really need a shoe mounted flash to get the right balance and amount of flash needed.
What lens are you using? If it is an f4 or slower lens you need more light to freeze the action. From the looks of your photos this may be part of the problem. An f2.8 lens would get you a lot more light but they cost a lot more money too. A 70-200mm f2.8 Sigma is about the cheapest, and best alternative for most users at around $650, or if you can afford it the Canon version, but the cut down version is $1000, and the one with IS (image stabilization ) is $1700 which is more than most want to or can afford. Anyway a faster lens (lower number f (aperature)) is better in low light such as woods and so on. You can compensate with flash but the built in flash has limited use, and range.

JS

[jorgemonkey]

Whenever I go out and shoot my MTB rides, (I use a Nikon system) I mainly shoot with this lens:

http://www.photographyreview.com/cat...2_3128crx.aspx

The other lens that I use is the Sigma 70-200 f2.8 that JSPhoto was talking about. Its an awsome lens, and much cheaper than its Nikon/Canon versions.
The reviews for that lens are here:

http://www.photographyreview.com/cat...8_3128crx.aspx

[zachdank]

thanks alot. Looks like i'll be buying a new lens shortly.

[Photo-John]

Besides the equipment stuff, which JSPhoto and Jorge already covered pretty well, you need to consider your camera settings and technique. Those are really the key to good photos. Better equipment helps, but it doesn't change the rules.

You have two choices for action shots - fast shutter speed, or pan. I go back and forth. Neither one is better. They both deliver good photos, but with a different feel. In really low light, panning is sometimes the only option. Plus, some good background blur can contribute a great sense of motion that's often missing in totally frozen images.

What exposure mode are you using? I use Manual so that I have complete control of both the shutter speed and the aperture. You should take a look at the manual exposure options your camera offers and at least start looking at the shutter speed. Try using the Tv mode, which lets you select a shutter speed and the camera chooses a corresponding aperture. Using the flash will limit your maximum shutter speed to 1/200th of a second. With your subjects, you'll need to pan if you're using flash. That shutter speed isn't even close to fast enough for freezing a fast dh rider. If you want to freeze your subjects you're going to need a minimum shutter speed of 1/500th.

I'm sure that's a lot for you to absorb right now. Just let all that stuff float around in your head and the next time your shooting see if you can apply a little of it. The main thing is to at least watch your shutter speed. And one important thing to learn about photography is that it's a game of compromises. You can't have it all. For every image you consider all of your options and make compromises to get the best image you can get.

I'm going to move this post to the sports forum because that's a better place for it. Plus, you might get some more replies from other action photographers.

Good to see you here! Now that you have a good camera I really need to make that trip. Then you can just ask me questions while we're shooting.

[zachdank]

Thanks alot John. That is not to much for me to absorb. I have been messing around in TV mode. Will any flash limit my shutter speed to 1/200? Is it all about panning in lower light situations? I'm used to panning because of all the filming i do.
What is a good wider angle lens to get for shooting big doubles? How about a flash?

[JSPhoto]

AHHHH, thats why I wanted to know what settings you were using! Stay away from TV mode. I prefer Manual mode for everything, you have more control in manual. Set your shutter no higher than 800, set ISO no higher than 800 (lower for good daylight, as low as 100) then use the aperature to change things and see what you get. Adjust from there. Don't go below 200 on shutter or you'll get some blur you probably don't want.

Panning is important if you are beside the target, a lot of your shots are headon though from what I remember. Panning is actually easier with a heavier camera and lens, and they need to be balanced. A light camera an you tend to get ahead of the target or pan too fast. Thats one reason I like my setup as it is balanced so well.

As for a wide lens, you could try the 50mm 2.8 from Canon, fairly cheap and a great lens. I don't think you'd want to try the one I use as it's a bit pricy... $2300 for a EF 28-300mm USM IS which gives plenty of coverage through the range.

Flash: well you could use a used 430EX (Canon) or a Sunpak 433D with Canon hotshoe, or go all out and get a Canon 580EX, probably a lot more $$ than you want to spend. I got a used Sunpak 433D for $55, a used 430EX was $150 back when I got mine. I use the flash in manual as a fill, normally between 1/4 and 1/8 , but you can go higher or lower as needed, really depends how far your subject is, what speed your shoting, and ISO.

JS

[Photo-John]

The "flash synch" speed is a function of the camera, not the flash. Although Canon does make flashed with "High Speed Synch", as you increase the shutter speed the distance decreases. High speed synch doesn't really work unless you're really close. That's one reason a lot of us use radio slaves to control flashes from a distance. They also allow you to do some creative stuff with the lights.

You don't have to use a wide lens for dirt jumps. A long lens is good, too. They just have different effects. I like to use a long lens from far away with dirt jumps. It compresses the space and stacks up the jumps tightly. Canon makes some really wide, digital specific "EF-S" zoom lenses. I just have the 15mm fisheye. The 17-40L is really nice. It's got a large maximum aperture and the optical quality rules. There's also the 16-35mm f/2.8L. You have to remember that your camera has a 1.6x digital crop factor so neither of those will be super wide. To go really wide you'll need to buy one of the EF-S lenses, like the 10-22mm. I'm not sure what the right thing to do is. It depends on how wide you want and what you're willing to spend. I don't have anything wider than the 15mm fisheye, although I'd like a wider lens. But the fishey does the job and there are other things where I can better use my money.

[JSPhoto]

Once you get your flash do a lot of practice, learn how it works with your camera and lenses in different situations. Practice, use different settings and see what you get, what you like and do not like. You learn a lot more by doing than reading here. We can give you ideas and starting points, but only you know exactly how you want each shot to come out, and how each piece of your gear works in each situation. Each camera, lens, flash may be the same as the next persons but there are slight differences in them, what may work for me may not work at the same settings for you. Learning how your gear works for each situation will help you in many ways.
I think my neighbors think I'm crazy as I go out out in the yard in all kinds of weather, day, night, cloudy, foggy, sunny, whatever and try each lens on each body and with /without flash so I can learn how each one works under different conditions. Now I don't suggest using your XT in bad weather as it is not sealed like my 1D's are, they are made for all kinds of weather.

JS

[zachdank]

thanks guys. I'm not going to be able to get a new flash and lens for at least a few weeks.
I went out yesterday and shot some more using different settings. Mostly tv and manual. Shots came out better. Not bad for using no flash in a lower light sitch. It was sprinkling too, so it was kind of sketchy.

[JSPhoto]

Yup, they are better. You could, if you wanted brighten up the faces a tad with photoshop or Elements. Otherwise I think you have the right idea and finding your way. You now have a good starting point.
I don't think your one buddy wanted his picture taken though

JS

[fumehood]

I am in the market for a Rebel XT, and eventually am planning on getting two Sigma EF-500 SUPER flashes for use as a slave set-up for mountain bike photography. I am still sketchy on all this synch speed lingo and was wondering if the Rebel is actually limited for this use with flashes. Does the synch speed only come into play while shooting in the auto modes? It sounds like as long as I shoot in manual modes I can get the shutter speeds that I need for the fast action DH shots and with an f/2.8 I should be good to go. Or do better cameras actually have an advantage. Like zachdank, I am new to all this, especially with flashes and slave flashes.

[singe]

you'll be limited by the camera's synch speed whether you're shooting manually or in some auto mode. it has to do with faster shutter speeds only exposing a portion of the sensor/film at a time. this, coupled with short flash durations, means that the light from your flashes will only be exposing the portion of the sensor that is uncovered.

zach... a good low(er)-cost wide angle for you would be a 15mm fish. i think you can pick up the sigma for around $400 from sigma4less.com. i have a 15 fish and a 10-22 that i use on my 20d a lot when shooting dh, but i prefer the fisheye. on a 1.6x crop camera (20d and rebel xt) you can use it a lot and not look gimmicky. when shooting head-on, i like the compression that a 70-200 gives you. anyway, just a few ideas. i look forward to seeing some new STINC shots over on mtbr now that you've got the new setup.

later,

s

[Photo-John]

you'll be limited by the camera's synch speed whether you're shooting manually or in some auto mode. it has to do with faster shutter speeds only exposing a portion of the sensor/film at a time. this, coupled with short flash durations, means that the light from your flashes will only be exposing the portion of the sensor that is uncovered.

You can actually squeeze a bit more speed out of your shutter if you're using radio slaves. The camera's processor will limit the flash sync speed when the flash is connected via the hotshoe. When you only have a simple connection, like with a radio slave, you get to use the real flash sync. I've shot at well over 1/500th with radio slaves and my EOS 1D, which has a flash sync speed of 1/500th. On the other hand, fumehood whould be aware that he probably won't be able to get any faster than 1/250th - even using radio slaves. And 1/250th is still slow for real DH in bright sunlight, unless you pan.

[singe]

interesting... i didn't know that. with my cheap chinese radio slaves, i actually have to shoot SLOWER. i can only shoot at 1/200 before getting a small dark band along the bottom edge of the frame. it's annoying, but it will do until i can grab some PWs. thanks for the info pj.

[Photo-John]

That's strange. The thing about radio slaves is they take the camera's processor out of the equation. The shutter will have a natural sync speed. But the camera will be programmed for something a bit slower than that. When you use radio slaves you can find the actual sync speed. If you're having to shoot slower, that would indicate that there's some kind of lag in your radio slaves. PocketWizards are great. I've also being hearing good things about the Calumet radio slaves and the Quantum has some nice ones now, too. Tamrac started marketing some tiny new ones last year that look pretty slick. It used to be all about PocketWizards. But they appear to have competition now. That's great since they're so damn expensive.

[singe]

i think it's definitely lag in the slaves somewhere. i've talked to a few other 20d owners who have the same ones and say the same thing. they'll do for the time being. there are just too many things to spend money on it seems.

[bitflogger]

I don't know if this is the right forum to post in. I just purchased a canon rebel XT, and i am a total beginner. I've read the manuals from start to finish. I want to shoot some mountain bike action shots. I was wondering what would be the best settings to use for this. I've taken a handfull of shots, but i know i have a long way to go. I want a crisp clear subject. Nothing abstract or streaky. Don't know the terms that you guys use to describe these things. Here are a couple of shots that i have taken. I'm not happy with them.
Thanks for the help in advance.
Like i said, I'm a total beginner with little knollege of digital cameras.

I use the 17-85 IS USM lens. I can get my XT body, that lens and 430EX in my CamelBak. I love the 17-85. It is often criticized by pixel peeping b_tt heads, but the people who see the photos love the results, and I don’t think you’ll call it too expensive if you get two quality lenses to replace it. Know that IS is wonderful, but it does not stop action. The first shot shows that – a sharp surroundings, but at 1/25 the bike is blurred. I try for a balance of smaller aperture and speed but that’s not always ideal where the second link is 1/125, but the lens stopped down to try and have the background clear. The best for me is 1/200+ and high speed flash sync. The last shot linked captures the racer reasonably well at 1/200. Also use trees and rocks to stabilize yourself, and pick up an Ultrapod II tripod as a goodie that’s easy to carry and help you make shots.

You might want to buy or head to the library for a basic photography book. You'll get tips and reminders on rules that really help.

Good luck.

http://i.pbase.com/v3/71/600971/2/50...jmarks0006.jpg
http://i.pbase.com/v3/71/600971/2/50...arksps0001.jpg
http://mishilo.image.pbase.com/v3/71...PP_BM12002.jpg

[fumehood]

Man, just when you think you have done all the research, and you think you know what camera you want to get, that can do what you want it to do, and wham-o along comes something else to through into the mix. Since you guys know what I am going to want a camera to do as far as action shots w/ a flash set-up, so should I go w/ a Nikon w/ a 1/500 sync speed? $1000 is about my limit for now for a body, and with a couple of f/2.8 lenses, and a flash or two, I am already spending more money than I have to spend…unless Santa wins the lottery. I guess I have some more research to do. I was all set to get the Canon set-up, maybe that is not the best way to go. Should I consider something other than a Nikon D50 or D70s (keeping in mind my price range)? I feel like I am back at square one.

Thanks for all of your help.

[bitflogger]

Man, just when you think you have done all the research, and you think you know what camera you want to get, that can do what you want it to do, and wham-o along comes something else to through into the mix. Since you guys know what I am going to want a camera to do as far as action shots w/ a flash set-up, so should I go w/ a Nikon w/ a 1/500 sync speed? $1000 is about my limit for now for a body, and with a couple of f/2.8 lenses, and a flash or two, I am already spending more money than I have to spend…unless Santa wins the lottery. I guess I have some more research to do. I was all set to get the Canon set-up, maybe that is not the best way to go. Should I consider something other than a Nikon D50 or D70s (keeping in mind my price range)? I feel like I am back at square one.

Thanks for all of your help.

I tested Nikons and Canons. The Canon sync speed is faster with an external flash. I liked the way the Nikons were in hand, but the small size of XT body, 17-85 IS USM lens and small size and fast recycle of 430EX took me to Canon as well as feeling ISO 800 shots and cropping power were better. That said, I'm not one of these one brand only snobs and know you'll have a great setup with either.

If budget is a big thing that XT body, Canon's IS line and a few of their cheap primes really help. Know that there is a not so common or popular kit version with the 17-85 IS USM lens, but it is over a grand.

I carried my CamelBak into the store and stuffed it all in as a test.

Good luck and have fun shopping and snapping your shots.

[fumehood]

I have been doing some more digging and came up with this great resource discussing flash photography using Canon cameras here. From reading this part about running in FP mode, it seems the synch speed does not really matter as long as you run in FP flash mode. It states that “FP flash lets you take flash photos at any shutter speed you like, and works by pulsing the flash bulb at an extremely high rate - 50 KHz - simulating constant light at the cost of total light output.” And ” FP mode flash solves this problem by letting the shutter speed exceed the X-sync limit and reach the camera’s maximum shutter speed (usually 1/2000 or 1/4000 sec) instead.” I am not wanting to shoot at super fast shutter speeds, but I am going to need to shoot at least at 1/500 to get clear images.

BUT, it also says “Note an important point - FP mode does not help you freeze motion; the name “high-speed sync” is a bit misleading in this regard. Normal flash photography is very good at freezing motion on film, since a burst of electronic flash is so incredibly brief. When a scene is illuminated primarily by a really brief flash of light then you aren’t going to get much motion blur - it’s almost as if you used an incredibly high shutter speed in the thousandths of a second. However when you use FP mode flash, the flash unit pulses the light output over a longer period of time in order to simulate a longer-duration burst of light. Since the flash burst is no longer particularly brief you can’t freeze motion as easily, even with high shutter speeds.” Does this last sentence “can’t freeze motion as easily, even with high shutter speeds.” mean that exceeding the sync speed can actually do more harm than good? Basically shooting-down the argument that as long as I run in FP mode I will be fine?

I posted this in a couple of other forums, but I have not been totally persuaded to go one way or the other yet. I am hoping someone here will have another perspective and help me make up my mind. You can check out what other people have said here and here.

[JSPhoto]

Oh, I forgot to add that both of my 1D's and I believe my DRebel 300D all sync at 1/250, more than enough to freeze action.

JS

[JSPhoto]

With proper technique, you can freeze motion at very slow shutter speeds. Liven and I already had this discussion, and you can do it with or without flash. Learning to shoot handheld with proper technique, lots and lots of practice and you can shoot at 160 and freeze the action at night. The XT may be tough to do it with however, due mainly to it's weight. Yes, weight! A cameras weight has a bearing on panning. I found that out the day I got my original 1D. The added weight actually steadied the camera and panning speed as I panned shots. But it also does help when not panning as well. I have found that with light cameras I would actually move the camera when pushing the shutter button, but not with heavier bodies. Learning to not move the camera as you press the shutter button is part of learning the proper technique. If your not freezing action at 1/500 it's most likly due to a very fast subject or very poor technique.

JS

[livin4lax09]

but theres times when freezing action at 160 is nearly impossible. Panning is what allows you to freeze action at 160, but when you want to get subjects that are moving in jerky movements, it's darn near impossible. Using flash and freezing at 160 is much easier, because the flash puts out a very fast light, and if you shoot under ambient, all your sensor is recording is the flash light, which can be up to 1/1000 of a second.

[JSPhoto]

Remember the soccer shot liven?

JS