Middle School Volleyball

[techaide2]

Hello. I'm new to the forum and am enjoying it very much. I purchased my first DSLR this summer (Pentax *ist DL) and have enjoyed taking photos at our school's volleyball games.

As everyone else, I'm struggling with poor lighting. To help that I bought a 50mm F1.4 lens which has helped except that I have to get as close as possible to the court. I've considered adding a 80-200mm F2.8 lens but I have several concerns:

1) Will the F2.8 give me enough light?
2) Do I need to step up to a better camera?
3) Would a better camera help a novice?

Following are two of my best photos. Both have had some post processing; I'm quite new at that, too.

Taken at an "Away" game

This is our home gym


Any advice would be appreciated.

Thank you,
Karen

[rajkirk]

Hi Karen,

One of my goals is to get some GOOD volleyball shots at my daughters college matches. Last night I shot bunch and yes, I did encounter the evil lighting problem. First of all, lighting will vary from court to court. Not a whole bunch, but definitly enough to vary your exposure point. I saw someone elses post (from a Chris on 9/13) on this subject and he ended up using a 70-200 mm EF L Canon lens using 2.8 or 3.2 aperture, and 1/250 sec. He stated that this was maybe 1 stop under exposed and then we went in and lightened it up on the computer. I used this exact same lens on my Canon EOS 5D last night I was pretty much in the same ballpark. However, I am having trouble focusing. I am trying to figure out exactly the method I should use to get good focus on these wildly moving targets. If anybody can share some opinions on that I sure would appreciate it!

Rod Kirk

[techaide2]

Hi, Rod.

Thanks for your reply. I'm beginning to wonder what it takes to get a good volleyball shot. I'd hate to spend a lot more money on a camera and then still not get what I'm after. I've been thinking about stepping up to a Canon, but if I spend several thousand dollars on a camera and lenses, I want to see a dramatic improvement. Of course, I also worry that with my skill level, a really nice camera won't help anyway.

Karen

[rajkirk]

Hi,

I am going to try again this afternoon at my daughters match. It looks like with the lighting in this gym, the exposure will be about iso 400 and f2.8 and around 1/200 sec. I will push it to 1/250 and lighten up things later. The volleyball court poses some interesting problems to overcome. You have players moving around, you have the volleyball net and you have things both in front of and behind the net, so focusing can be problematic. I found a few nights ago that auto focus was sometimes focusing on things behind or in front of the net and some shots were not in focus. I am going to try manual focus. I think I might try focusing on the top part of the net at some distance that I think the action will be taking place at. I'll report back as to how this all comes out.

Also, your comment about getting a more expensive camera if that will help. The critical things are how much light is available that allows you to use as fast a shutter as possible to prevent motion blurr. That means that you need to be able to use larger apertures as you have seen 2.8 and below. I also have the 50mm/1.4 lens but as you commented, you have to get pretty close to get a decent composition. I wouldn't go out and buy more camera just yet. You may want to get another good lens ala 70-200mm f2.8. Your pictures looked pretty good as far as focus goes.

Rod

[SmartWombat]

I agree, I wouldn't recommend dumping all the Pentax gear.
Canon claims to have the best, fastest AF, but the action isn't that fast in netball - not compared to Formula 1 cars

If you're going to focus on the net, then I have a trick to help.
When you're photographing the team playing towards the net, lean backwards while you focus.
Then sit upright while you shoot - without refocussing.
That will put the focal plane a few inches the other side of the net, just where their faces ought to be as they spike or block.

[AndersonCAA]

Focusing on vollyball players is one of those hazards of shooting sports that we all run into as players are constantly coming into and out of the frame. One of the jokes we have with the other local shooters is that we have the greatest collection of referee butts around as they're always getting in the shot. What you might want to try is to adjust your camera so you can select one focusing point. I'm not sure how Pentax cameras work but if there are multple focusing points you are going to run into the problem of getting people/things in front of and behind your subject in better focus. Read the camera manual and see if you can get one focusing point. Then, if your camera has it, use the AI Servo setting on your camera. With the AI Servo and one focusing point, once you lock on your subect with the AF and keep the one focusing point on them, your Servo motors will continue to focus on that subect as they move toward or away from you. Granted, another subject may jump in front, entering that focusing point and goof it all up but by using this method it helps tremendously. If you want to dicuss it further please feel free to e-mail me at andersoncaa@sbcglobal.net And one last bit - a 70-200 2.8L lens will help quite a bit when shooting sports, especially indoor sports like volleyball. I don't know of any serious or pro shooters that don't have one in their bag and use it as their workhorse.

[techaide2]

Thank you to everyone that replied to my questions. We have another game on Monday evening, and I'll try some of the recommendations then.

I have been very interested in a 70-200mm F2.8 lens. My concerns are:
1) Someone told me that it still might not be bright enough. I had to use ISO 1600 with my 50mm F/1.4 lens.
2) I've been worrying that I should have bought a Canon instead of a Pentax. My camera seemed to focus really slowly last night. I changed the batteries hoping that would help, but it didn't.
3) It will be too heavy for me to hold as I already have a tendancy to shake the camera. I can't imagine using a tripod. How do you go from a shot at the net to someone diving for a ball?

My Pentax is a big improvement over the P&S camera I have. The problem is that the more improvement I see, the more I want.

Thanks again,
Karen

[rajkirk]

Greetings again to you all,

Today I made another attempt to improve my shooting of volleyball action. Unfortunately, my daughters team, St.Mary's Gaels (Ca.) were defeated by San Diego in 4 games. UGH! But, I did a bunch of experimenting and things got better for me.

Using my Canon 5D and shooting in RAW mode, I used ISO 125 or 200, using my 70-200mm f2.8 FL lens. I shot in manual mode and also set the shutter to either 1/250 or 1/500 sec. I also put in the lens in manual focus mode. I did this for not shots since there seemed to be three areas on the net where action was...left, center or right side. So I would focus in the area of the left side on the net and compensate to focus on either a little beyond the net or in front of the net. Then I would "lie in wait" for action to occur in that area...and click..I would capture a very nice lit clear image. Of course using this method I would miss some action that would occur in the middle or right side. I would move around, depending on what player I wanted to capture knowing what position they play and where action might occur. That seemed to work very well. Seemed it was easier than using autofocus/servo focus. I tend to sit just off center of the net and up a few rows.

So, next weekend I hope to capture some more images when the St. Mary's Gaels play USF (University of San Francisco).

Thanks all for you feedback and comments.

Rod Kirk

[trishe]

Hi,

I am new to the forum, and glad I found others shooting volleyball. I can RELATE to everything that has been mentioned!

I have been shooting Club VB for about 3 years. Started with a point and shoot (as a parent in the stands) and upgraded to the D70 when it first came out. After A LOT of research I have invested in a variety of lenses:
AF Nikkor ED 80-200 2.8
AF Nikkor 85 1.8 (a favorite)
AF Nikkor 35-70 2.8 (least favorite, but has its uses)
and the Nikon Kit lens

I pretty much always shoot RAW. I have my workflow down in CS2/ACR and can edit a bunch of shots very quickly. Shooting RAW works well as I can tweak the WB and exposure due to the infamous poorly lit gyms. In PP I also use NoiseNinja when shooting at high ISO.

Karen:

My advice is to RENT equipment before purchasing! I am in the process of UPGRADING again and am trying various equipment. I rented a Canon 30D which was good, but I am leaning towards the Nikon D200, because I have invested $$ in Nikon lenses. (WOULD LOVE TO GET OTHER FORUM MEMBER RECOMMENDATIONS/FEEDBACK, TOO)

The other thing to look at: are you using your camera's BURST/CONTINUOUS MODE to capture action? In looking at the specs for your camera it is a "bit" slow compared to the cameras of others that have posted.

What kind of memory card are you using... having a faster card helps.

Also, a monopod works well with the longer (and heavier) lenses.

If you are able to get on or near the floor, the 85 1.8 has worked well for me. It is light and can produce some neat images with shallow depth of field.

Even though I have been shooting this sport for a while I still STRUGGLE. I really enjoy reading about what works for photographers. I take every suggestion and at least try it to see if it can possibly work for me. The best advice that I have received to date is: to keep shooting and practicing!

Check out this volleyball website: www.biggirlinthemiddle.com Julian Baum is AMAZING! (Chris in this forum is doing a great job too!)

Looking forward to seeing more posts.

Trish

[rajkirk]

HI Trish and all,

Yeah, I am also learning little tricks and better ways of doing things each time I shoot a volleyball match. So far, my observations and comments.....

- Each location is different, with different lighting, local rules to follow.
- I shoot alot at NCAA college matches and they seem to be a bit picky about you getting too close to the court. I usually choose a pretty good spot just left or right of center net in the stands.
- I use a 70-200mm Canon 2.8fl lens and that is working out very well.
- I tried to use my 50mm 1.4 lens, but very limited since I can't get right next to lines and hence can't get really good closeups.
- I would like to take more shots perpendicular to the net from the back of the court to get both the offensive and defense players head on. Some places are restricting people to not walk around behind the back boundary point.
- Next shooting I am going to try and get the white balance stuff down during shooting so I can eliminate that during editing.
- Several posts in this Sports .P forum have shown really good shots. I commend them on their good work.
- Focussing can be tough. I do manual focus and anticipate action in that range and capture it.

Happy shooting!

Rod Kirk

[Joey_Haveman]

I've had similar pains with shooting dark gyms. I shoot indoor TaeKwonDo in bad lighting.

The photos are at (no ads): http://www.katytkd.com/photoalbum2.php

All of the galleries are mine except the very first. The first was shot with no experience on a Fuji S5100. I then upgraded to a Nikon D50. Here's what I discovered:

1. I use a Nikon D50 with 6.1 MP (cropable for my end-format)
2. I use my Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 wide open
3. I use ISO1600
4. I always do test photos for WB testing before the shoot
5. I use full manual mode set to 1/400 & f/1.8 (nothing can fix motion blur)
6. I post process in PS-CS using Noise Ninja to fix as much ISO1600 noise as possible

I started with a Fuji S5100 in sports mode. I've used a 28-300mm f/3.5-5.6 with a tripod and tried to strike a balance between motion blur and dark photos.

I've wanted to use my 24-70 f/2.8 to help frame my shots better, still had to opt for the 50mm f/1.8. Going from 1/160 to 1/400 is quite a jump when shooting action!

I recommend that if you want to shoot 70-200 or such that you invest in the Sigma OS or Nikon VR style lens if you are going to shoot hand held. If not, use a tripod or possibly a monopod.

As far as my shooting philosophy goes: take a gazillion pictures. My camera uses SD which is cheap. Because of how I'm going to use the photos, shooting the largest JPG files is fine for me. I need a balance between raw pixels, number of photos and the time it will take to post process. Testing lasts 2 hours and I may take 1000 photos during that time. I set my camera to continuous. If I take one photo then I take 5. I use the 10% rule. Because the action I shoot is very unpredictable, if I want 100 good actions shots, then I will need to take 1000. Some days are better than others. Some days it depends on me and some days it's just the action.

I don't shoot RAW because I know I'm already going to do a bunch of post processing to get the photos I want. Adding one more conversion step is time I don't want to spend for the marginal jump in output quality.

I have to keep a couple of things in mind: for what end-format am I taking the photos and what is the compensation for the time that I spend. For me the answers are small web photos and I get my academy fees for my family and me for free.

I hope this helps. I know my photos have come a long way in the past year. I hope that they get even better over the next.
================================================== ====
Nikon D50 - Nikkor 50mm f/1.8 - ISO1600 - 1/400 - f/1.8
Photoshop for brightness, contrast, color balance, and use of Noise Ninja

[techaide2]

Just a quick note to say that I've really enjoyed reading everyone's comments. I didn't make it to a game this week, so I'll have to try again next week. A lot of people have mentioned the 70-200mm lens, but I'm afraid to buy it until I decide if I'm staying with Pentax. I don't know of a camera shop in my area that will rent equipment. Sure wish they did as that would be a wonderful option.

Pentax has a new camera coming out soon that is reported to have much faster auto focus than the camera I currently own. Their newer models also have shake reduction which would help with the large 70-200mm lens.

One thing I noticed in these posts is that maybe I need to "lie in wait" for a shot. I've been trying to follow the game through the viewfinder so that I'd be ready for anything. I guess I need to be willing to miss a lot of shots to get a few good shots?? Or, I guess I could select one player to concentrate on - instead of trying to watch the game. Maybe I'm trying to do too much at one time??

Thanks again for all your help,
Karen

[knobby6]

Tried my first indoor gym vollyball shoot with my D70; 70-200 2.8 VR. Much tougher than I thought it would be. Iso was 1600 at 2.8 and 180 for shutterspeed. Shot with exposure in manual. As previously mentioned using autofocus is hit or miss and it is really hard to follow the action. Guess, I will try the lay in wait next time. Shooting at iso 1600 produces quite a bit of noise, especially if you want to crop your pictures. I haven't tried noise ninja yet, but if it works for raw I will try it next. Also I believe the vibration reduction really helps a lot in this type of shooting, although it is pretty expensive on a fast lens. Just one last unrelated comment is, I edit in lightroom and I like it much better than CS3 for most edits. Much faster and more efficient.