HS Football help

[sgriggs2006]

Ok, all....Its that time of year again....I am in need of a setup tweak.
I've been putting off buying that $$ glass just for HS Football....but, I think I'm going to have to do it...
My priority for shooting is to get some snaps for the paper that I work for. I have a D700, and my first setup last night was using my 55-200 f4-5.6 (groan) coupled w/ a SB600, ISO 3200 and Manual exposure.....I'm not good enough w/ my timing to rely on the slow recycle time of the 600....I just do so much better w/ a burst of 3 pics, but the flash can't handle that (or, rather,if it can, I don't know how to get it)....
Ok, so I got a few usables for submission, and then I plunked the 50mm 1.4 on it, got rid of the flash and just waited for some sideline action, which usually appears...
The first one is from the first setup(zoom f4-5.6 and flash) and the second pix is from the 2nd setup (50mm no flash)....
I have never used a larger glass w/ lower f/stop number....I am assuming I'm still going to have to use a flash but what to use?....but can you help me figure out my setup?....
thanks!!
s.

[fidgety]

Although the first image is a noce capture, the flash blew out the whites and yellows. The second image is nice as well but some flash would have helped bring out some detail and make the image pop a bit more.
It might be a good investment to buy the better glass as that constant 2.8 sure does help. I use Canon gear and use a 300 2.8L IS and a 70-200 2.8L and always use an ISO of 800 so I don't get alot of noise. I then use an onboard Canon flash set to manual power then set it to 1/4 power to start and then make adjustments based on the location of the teams on the field.

[sgriggs2006]

So here's a question....
In the first picture, don't you have to sacrifice some blownout white to get the blue player in the shot? My goodness, if I toned down the flash for the white guy (my team) you wouldn't have anything left of the blue guy...and would look a bit static? Not arguing...just discussing for my little brain?
s...

[dhyravy]

For HS football at night, I don't worry so much about blowing out the whites slightly. It depends on the distance that you're expecting the flash to go. A constant aperture lens as Chris pointed out will go a long way toward helping with this. When you have that, you can use TTL and some flash compensation to get the exposure on track. Here's a good discussion on flash and HS football:
http://www.sportsshooter.com/message...html?tid=30821

[Franglais]

First strange thing: it says that the exposure is shutter priority 1/640s f4.8. Now the D700's flash sync speed is only 1/250s maximum. I don't know how the flash has come out about right. I would stick to 1/250s maximum with flash.

On the flash picture - having the two players in the background looking at the two players in the foreground is nice but it looks like the camera has tried to expose for all four players and as they are some distance apart, it has blown the players in the foreground slightly to give more detail on the players in the background. I would change my framing when using flash. Concentrate on a subject at one distance from the flash - the two players left players in this case - and eliminate the dark background, the other players, etc.

It also looks like your focus is out on the flash image. A faster lens (example: 70-200 f2.8) will help the camera stay in focus.

The second image looks rather dark. I just tried correcting it - it's about 1/4 of a stop underexposed

[sgriggs2006]

Franglais,
Thanks for the suggestion and dhyrvy for the website link...its GREAT!!!! I am learning the basics of the flash....and you are right...I was thinking that the sync speed WAS 1/250 (and is) so I was just dumb to try to get the 1/640 to work...and obviously it DIDN'T!!
At least now I have somewhere to educate myself on the flash particulars....
cheers,
sue

[Franglais]

...I was just dumb to try to get the 1/640 to work...and obviously it DIDN'T!!
..

Normally at 1/640s with a camera synced at 1/250s there should be two thirds of the frame dark and one third of the frame correctly exposed. What we see on your picture looks - normal, apart from the foreground being overexposed which is inevitable.

I'm going to have to do some homework on this.

[OldClicker]

Normally at 1/640s with a camera synced at 1/250s there should be two thirds of the frame dark and one third of the frame correctly exposed. What we see on your picture looks - normal, apart from the foreground being overexposed which is inevitable.

I'm going to have to do some homework on this.

In Sony, it's called High Speed Sync (HSS). The flash duration is as long as the shutter speed. - TF

[sgriggs2006]

Yeah, there is something that Nikon has that tries to accomodate the low sync speed...Perhaps its FP? That was something that was up on my flash, and no matter what I couldn't "mode" it off....Now I figure it must be the flash trying to accomodate my ignorance.... :0))

[dhyravy]

When the camera/flash goes to FP sync, you lose a lot of flash power because the flash pops multiple times as the shutter passes over the sensor. What you need to do is try to underexpose the ambient light a little with the flash off. That makes the flash the dominant light source when it's on. Set the shutter for 1/250, f stop as low as your lens allows and usually somewhere around ISO 800-1250 depending on the field lighting. Manual camera settings are the only way to go with the flash to get any consistent results.

[sgriggs2006]

Daniel- THANK YOU for explaining this to me!! I am a scientist by training and I need to "understand" how things work- and this explains a LOT to me!! Now, I understand why my flash appears to have NO distance to it....And, I knew it was something I was doing!! I shot last year w/ a D40 and a little tiny speedlight and I got better shots than this...The sync speed is much higher on the D40, if I remember correctly....
I figured I had a better body (d700) now, and was utilizing the higher ISO's than worked on the D40...plus a better flash....I figured I HAD to do better....But, what was happening was that I was upping the shutter because things looked soft to me...and what that was doing, was actually reducing the effectiveness of the flash, because it was trying to adjust the sync speed.... What I should have done was adjust the FLASH....Geesh, you have just made my evening....Now, if I can put my newfound knowledge to use....I should have MUCH better results on Friday!!
THANK YOU THANK YOU THANK YOU!!
And, to think, I've been giving my sb-900 a bad rap, because the same thing has been happening w/ it!! Oy, I am so daft!
But, I have been reading and reading and have not had it explained like this!!! You are a saver!! Thanks!
sue.

[Franglais]

....But, what was happening was that I was upping the shutter because things looked soft to me...and what that was doing, was actually reducing the effectiveness of the flash, because it was trying to adjust the sync speed.... What I should have done was adjust the FLASH...

Be careful if you apply adjustments only to the flash. The flash does what the camera body thinks is right and if you tell it to do something else the results might be out. Why not write us a piece before Friday on how you're going to do your setup?

I still haven't understood how your picture at 1/640s came out. Here's a description of what's going on, in non-scientific terms:

- The sensor is sitting behind a rectangular window, which is closed by two curtains.
- When the user presses the shutter release, the first curtain starts to cross the window from one side to the other, exposing the sensor to the light
- On the D700 the curtain takes 1/250s to gets to the far end of the window, so that all the sensor is exposed to the light
- After a while the second curtain starts chasing the first one, but this time it’s closing the window and blocking the light getting to the sensor
- For an exposure of 1/250s the second curtain sets off as soon as the first one has arrived
- For an exposure longer than 1/250s the second curtain waits for a bit before setting off
- For an exposure shorter than 1/250s – here’s the important bit – the second curtain sets off before the first one has arrived. There is never a moment when the whole sensor is fully uncovered. This is why you can’t normally use flash with an exposure of less than 1/250s. The flash is very short (less than 1/1000s) but there is never a moment when the window is fully open.

There are two exceptions :

1. The D70 and the D40 have a special sensor which acts as an electronic shutter. The mechanical shutter is open for 1/250s (or longer). However the sensor only reads data for part of the time, during which the flash pops off. This gives you effectively a very fast flash sync speed

2. In FP mode on the D700 the flash goes off several times following the progression of the open window over the sensor. But for this to work you have to set it up in the flash menu on your camera (at least for my D300, which is very similar).

[dhyravy]

Just watch the temperature with the SB-900. If you have some good NiMH batteries and it can recycle fast enough (and you're shooting rapidly) the 900 has been known to shut down due to the thermal sensor. If that were to happen, it will be OK after a short break. Have fun out there!

[dhyravy]

I believe the SB-600 when mounted on-camera will automatically use FP sync if it hasn't been disabled on the camera when the shutter speed exceeds 1/250. On the D300, high speed sync only goes to 1/320, the D700 goes much higher.

[sgriggs2006]

I think that Daniel must have hit it on the head...I believe the SB-600 auto reverts to the FP mode....Because I don't believe I changed that info on the camera.....I am excited to try again this friday....
Actually, I'll be shooting volleyball on Thursday, so I"ll be trying some of this stuff, then....I'll keep everyone posted...What a great forum to have so many experts help us pitiful people!! :-)
cheers.
sue.

[sgriggs2006]

Charles...
I meant to THANK YOU for your explanation also...that helps me visualize the other component of the sync issue....!!
cheers,
sue

[sgriggs2006]

Ok, new setup tonight... definitely see a diffence, but still missing something....Seems soft and muddy....You can see the EXIF data....the flash was set to manual mostly in the 1/64 range.... this lens was a Nikkor 80-200mm1:2.8 ED....Seemed like when I went to the 1/32 it got darker...but maybe its because I was shooting across the field, and shouldn't have been? I was flipping between ISO 3200 and 1600....and tried lots of different setting (Aperture priority, shutter priority and Manual)...seemed to get the best results w/ shutter priority set at 1/250 (sync speed of camera) and F2.8
Help me to learn how to do better!
cheers,
sue

[sgriggs2006]

And, another one....I am hand holding this lens...do you think I need to use a monopod? I'd rather not, if I don't have to....Still missing a critical piece in the puzzle. :-(
cheers,
sue.

[dhyravy]

These look pretty good. You need more flash power and less ISO. The ambient light is causing motion blur. Also, at f2.8 the DOF makes the distance range where the subject is in focus very narrow. (about 6" at this distance). A good starting point would be ISO800, f2.8, 1/250, and flash set to TTL. Use the flash compensation to adjust the flash if you need more light. I use manual flash at 1/4 to 1/2 power, but this requires me to adjust my aperture on the fly as a play comes close. Keep shooting!

[sgriggs2006]

Daniel...this is such a sharp, crisp shot!!!.... what is the EXIF data from this...I haven't got the software to read that yet from other people pictures...
s.

[dhyravy]

Exif color space
sRGB
Compressed bits per pixel
4
Contrast
Normal
Custom rendered
0
Date-time created
2009:08:21 09:00:54
Date-time digitized
2009:08:21 09:00:54
Digital zoom ratio
1
Exposure bias
0
Exposure mode
1
Exposure program
1
Exposure time
1/250 sec
F stop
3.2
File source
Present (count = 1)
Flash
0
Focal length
135
Focal length in 35mm
202
Gain control
1
ISO speed ratings
800
Light source
---
Max aperture
3
Metering mode
3
Orientation
1
Saturation
Normal
Scene type
1
Scene capture type
0
Sharpness
Hard
Subject distance range
0
Subseconds modified time
40
Subseconds original time
40
Subseconds digitized time
40
User comment
ASCII
White balance
0