Fishing and hunting shots?

[Ron Kruger]

Do you guys consider fishing and hunting sports photography?
I specialize in this for magazines. Even much of the wildlife photography I do deals with capturing actions and body language, often in low-light conditions, so I think many of the same principles apply, and from what I've seen from snooping around here, there are some real pros hanging out.
I'd like to post some shots here for suggestion for improvements, but there are no balls involved.

[Jaedon]

Or wheels for that matter.

Fishing for me isn't really a sport but I have never done it competitively. Hunting and fishing are technically classified as sports so I have no objections to seeing shot of them here. I guess it all depends on teh context of the shot. If it is just a host of a deer standing in the field... then it is a N&W shot. If there is a hunter with rifle in hand aimed at the deer... then it's a sport shot.

I have no i=dea honestly.. just offering my 2 cents in case it matters.

[Ron Kruger]

Thanks, Jaedon.
A lot of what I do tries to capture the action of fishing and hunting. There are no scheduled matches between man and fish and man and beast, and the playing field is the whole outdoors, so capturing just the right moments that depict the chase and the capture are tricky, and contstantly changing available light is always a factor.

[brmill26]

We're not super picky around here, but I think you'll probably get more response from the Nature and Wildlife people. Not because we'd be annoyed to see the shot here, but because we may not have as many suggestions. There are a fair number of the N&W guys who shoot birds in flight and such that would more closely resemble what it sounds like you're doing.

[Ron Kruger]

Well, maybe I should show an example. The difference is there is considerable action involved here. This was taken at 1/500 sec. with a 200mm, bright evening sun to my back.

[brmill26]

I hope to goodness this is a planned shot and not a live fire situation!...

But that image does illustrate your point well. How about this - I think it falls in the gap! I'd say it's pretty equal parts both sport and nature. I guess it depends what you're after. Someone in N&W could tell you what that bird is, while we might say something like, I'd love to see that in a panning shot... Whatever the case, that's a cool image and it would definitely be something different around here.

[SmartWombat]

I think it falls in the gap as well.
Hunting, shooting, and fishing are all sport - though not often competitive sports.

I agree with Jaedon, sports doesn't mean it has to have wheels or balls
Wrestling, fencing, boxing, skiing, snowboarding - OK the participants may have balls.
I see a lot of ball sports here, and motorsport, it would be good to see others.

[Ron Kruger]

Anyway, this is a pretty good shot, but I'm looking to improve it.
I chose 1/500 sec. to try to stop the wingbeat, and this is the only one that did so, because I caught the wings at top. I was using a 200mm f/2.8, because I wanted to achieve a sort of isolating, or bokah, effect, but the DOF was so narrow, I had trouble getting both shooter and bird in focus.
Any suggestions? Or should I drop the 200mm idea and go with a shorter focal length?

[OldClicker]

Anyway, this is a pretty good shot, but I'm looking to improve it.
I chose 1/500 sec. to try to stop the wingbeat, and this is the only one that did so, because I caught the wings at top. I was using a 200mm f/2.8, because I wanted to achieve a sort of isolating, or bokah, effect, but the DOF was so narrow, I had trouble getting both shooter and bird in focus.
Any suggestions? Or should I drop the 200mm idea and go with a shorter focal length?

What about using a wide angle lens and releasing (I'm assuming it's a farm release???) very close to the hunter. The wide angle will make the distance from hunter to bird appear longer and you would have a much deeper DOF. The closeness and the DOF would help get both in focus. If the background was a long way away (big field), it could still be somewhat OOF. Make sense? - TF

[Ron Kruger]

Brmill: To get shots out of the ordinary, I often take some chances to get unusual perspectives.
There's lots of technical challenges to these shots. As you can probably tell by the feathers in the air, these birds come up pretty fast, and their flight path is not controlled. Because of the way they are hunted with pointing dogs, I can tell about when they are going to flush, but not always which way they are going to go. I have to trust the hunters not to shoot when they are aiming my way, and I don't do this with someone like VP Chaney.
To get as many shots as possible with each flush, I set my camera on auto-bracket 5, which fires all five shots in little over a second, and then adjust the exposure in PS, if necessary.

[Ron Kruger]

Thanks, Clicker. Off and on, for years I've tried to get this shot with wide-angle and standard lenses, but the birds always come out too small and indistinct. This bird did come up close to the hunter, but they move pretty fast, and although I snapped the shutter quickly (even before the hunter could get the gun all the way to his shoulder), the bird was already that far away. A longer lens compresses the distance, but at the same time, there's the DOF problem.
Maybe what I need is a fast 100mm?

[Ron Kruger]

By the way, the reason I'm trying to get all your help to figure this out, is that these types of shots were seen by the director of a national field trial orginization, and he has asked me to go down to Alabama next month to record their week-long annual competition. This not only is a big deal that could mean a good boost to my pitiful freelance income, but this is a wealthy bunch, with a lot of contacts, and I'm likely to get some cover-quality shots from it as well.

[Ron Kruger]

Here's another aspect of these shots: AF isn't fast enough to keep up, and if I focus on the hunter, or on the bird, the other is bound to be out of focus, so I use MF and try to set the focus between them to control the range of acceptable focus.
Any suggestions?

[brmill26]

The only thing I can really think of is to stop down a few stops from wide open and use ISO to compensate. I just checked your EXIF and it says the above shot was at F/4.5 in shutter priority at 1/350, ISO 100.
For next time, try shooting in manual so you can control everything. Start at ISO 400, set the shutter at 1/500 and see how much you can stop down; I'd want at least F/5.6.

Obviously that will bring the background more in focus, but increasing DoF is the only solution to getting both the hunter and bird sharper. As an added bonus, your focus does not have to be so critically correct. And finally, your distance from the subjects will control how more or less the background is in focus; the closer you are, even stopped down you'll get a somewhat blurred background.

Here's something for you to try, probably not on a paid gig, but I'd love to see a shot from just over the hunter's shoulder, maybe just his shoulder and part of his head in frame, maybe the gun if you're high enough, and pan with him following the bird. It'd be a low percentage shot, but if you pulled it off I think it'd look really cool. Or at least it does in my brain... haha.

Where in Alabama is your shoot? Lori11 and myself are located just outside of Birmingham (Leeds and Hoover, respectively).

[Ron Kruger]

Thanks, Brmill. That makes sense, and I'll try it. I need a faster shutter speed, but never thought of adjusting the ISO to achieve it, along with an f-stop good enough to improve DOF. Great suggestion.
I have shots over the hunter's shoulder, and that's been done in my field many times. I'm tryng for a different perspective. You've got to use a short lens to get close over the shoulder shots, and then the bird looks very small, even if it is still close. That's why I'm trying to get it with a 200mm. I did, however, get a great shot of a bird being hit by a hunter, with feathers flying with my 200. I was about 50 yards away at the time.
I thought about posting that one, but some people might not like it.

[Ron Kruger]

Oh, forget your question about where.
I can't remember the name of the town, but I looked it up in my atlas, and it a small town west and a little south of Birmingham, not too far off of I20. Seems like it was London, or Landon or something like that?
I'm supposed to ride down with and stay with a guy from this area that runs a huge outfitting business, where the above shot was actually taken, so I didn't worry too much about where, except to check that it wasn't all the way at the bottom of the state.
What I'm worried about, is a couple of days before this guy called, I sent my camera back to have the AF fixed. This is usually my slowest time for photos, but, as luck would have it, this, which is probably one of the biggest opportunities to come along for a long time, came up right after I shipped my camera. I didn't tell him that and pray that I get my camera back before I need it.

[Ron Kruger]

Ah, what the heck. Here it is.

[brmill26]

Lincoln, Alabama maybe? That's not too far out from civilization

That's a pretty good shot, I like it. The trail of feathers makes a good effect. As for your camera, I have no idea how long that takes. I would guess the usual 4-6 weeks, but I really don't know.

[Ron Kruger]

Yes, Lincoln. That's it. And I'd rather be far out from civilization. The further I get from "civilization" the more civil things seems.

[SmartWombat]

pray that I get my camera back before I need it

As for your camera, I have no idea how long that takes. I would guess the usual 4-6 weeks

Most manufacturers operate professional programs, where you can get priority fast-track repairs.
I think you could be covered, Ron as Canon, Nikon, and Pentax all offer professional programs. You just have to sign up.
Did I miss out one of the manufacturers you use?

[Ron Kruger]

Thanks, Wombat. It's Pentax. Here’s the whole story, if you’re interested:
They do have a Professional Program. I learned about it a couple of months ago, and planned to wait for approval before sending my camera back. But "singing up" is not simple. You can't do it online, but only via snail-mail. I had to wait about a week for the application forms (three pages long), and they demand enough documentation to get high-priority clearance to the Pentagon, including at least two letters, on company letterheads (no emails) stating they have used my photographs during the past year. I emailed four of my markets asking for letters. Got one of them right away, but needed at least two. Had all the tear sheets and other items of proof, but needed that second letter to complete the package.
The problem with my camera seemed to be getting worse, and this is usually my slow time, so I sent it off. Besides, from dealing with Pentax, I've already figured out they are a huge bureaucratic organization, about like dealing with the phone company, and getting approval could take months. (I’m still waiting for a rebate I applied for six months ago.)
On the way home from shipping my camera, I checked my mailbox, and another letters was there, so I completed the Professional Program package and rushed back to the PO. (A third letter came the next day.)
A day or two later, this guy called about the job. That was last week sometime.
A day or two later, I wrote a long email explaining my situation and sent it to three different people with Pentax, including the repair service people, begging them to bend their rules and either repair or replace my camera body ASAP. I haven’t heard back from them.
I’ve been very impressed with the quality of images I’ve gotten from this equipment, and especially with a DA* 200mm lens I bought a couple of months after getting the camera kit, but I’m sure not impressed with Pentax the company.

[Ron Kruger]

This isn’t the whole story of my frustrations of dealing with Pentax, but I’ll let it rest at this.
I will tell you all candidly, however, if Pentax doesn’t work with me on this, and I miss out on this opportunity, after all the contacts and requests and efforts I’ve made, all in the tone of “please,” I’ll join every online photography site on the internet and spread the word. I’ve not told them this, but if they deal this final blow to my frustrations, it will be a major public relations blunder on their part. Writing is what I do.

[opus]

If push comes to shove, could you rent some equipment to do this job? If you gain more business out of it, it could be worth the redundancy costs. If not, maybe you can write off the expense? Maybe start looking into your rental options in order to pull it off if necessary.

[SmartWombat]

Wow, Pentax could study the Canon program.
Sign up online, managed by the local subsidiary (Europe in my case) with no hassle.

Only needed them twice, to get all my equipment serviced before Le Mans 24h to sort out focus issues across 3 bodies.
Second time was to fix my 70-200 that I'd dropped on concrete for the 3rd time.
Good, fast, service.
Not cheap, but I got what I paid for - priority repairs by Canon themselves, not a local shop.

[Ron Kruger]

I never thought of that, Opus, and I thank you for the suggestion. However, since I specialize in outdoor photography, I live where I can best do that, and there isn't a camera shop within a hundred miles. In fact, I'd probably have to drive all the way to Nashville (over 200 miles) to find a good one with rental equipment.
I might be able to borrow a friend's Canon equipment, but he's a pro that runs a studio and might need his equipment (the job is a week-long event). Besides, I would feel very uncomfortable using equipment with which I'm unfamiliar.
But you have given me an idea, that just occurred to me: We’ll probably go through Nashville on the way. Maybe I can pick up a rental on the way down. I’ll check it out.