F1 - but not cars :)

[SmartWombat]

While waiting for the cars to start running on Friday morning (and freezing off parts of my anatomy) I looked around for other opportunities to capture photons.

Do any of them appeal to you?

[Overbeyond]

Yes they certainly do. The second one stands out for me. The lady in the wheel chair has a great sense of colour and timing. The first one is interesting also: good use of DOF or lack of it.
Tom

[JK_Photo]

I love the use of repeating patterns. The first two are standouts for me. The squashed perspective really makes them work

[SmartWombat]

Yes they certainly do. The second one stands out for me. The lady in the wheel chair has a great sense of colour and timing. The first one is interesting also: good use of DOF or lack of it.
Tom

I'll tell my wife she has a great sense of colour and timing
It took me 10 minutes waiting until she looked at me, instead of at the motor home where she was waiting for a driver to emerge.

So then I took a second look at the trucks, and the reflection in the windscreens, and decided to take another pattern shot for you-know-who

[SmartWombat]

Thanks, Jon.
I thought I'd give the 70-200 and 2x converter a workout.
When manually focussed it works well, I think.

[F-15_Flyer]

Number one is my favorite, nice repitition. And I like how you focused on only one of them(the second one down) and the rest were out of focus. Very nice.

[Trevor Ash]

None of these really appeal to me. Which ones appeal to you and why did you take these photos?

[Chunk]

Very often the pictures I enjoy most of 'events' are the behind the scenes shots like these.
I'd have liked to see the trash can scene after the races as well to compare. Nice rhythm in these.

Nice grouping of photos by color also. Were you thinking of that?

[Overbeyond]

None of these really appeal to me. Which ones appeal to you and why did you take these photos?

Hello Trevor
I dont mean any disrespect to you but because they do not appeal to you, your question "why did you take these photos" is unfair. Why should Smart Wombat or anyone elso for that matter have to justify to you why they take their photographs?
Why not offer your thoughts and constructive criticism on why they do not appeal to you.
Tom

[Trevor Ash]

Hello Trevor
I dont mean any disrespect to you but because they do not appeal to you, your question "why did you take these photos" is unfair. Why should Smart Wombat or anyone elso for that matter have to justify to you why they take their photographs?
Why not offer your thoughts and constructive criticism on why they do not appeal to you.
Tom

No disrespect taken. I think you just severely misunderstood the meaning behind my question. Looking at how it's worded I can see how you'd think that. I promise you I'm a nice person and wouldn't be rude like that

I was NOT asking "Why on earth did you waste your time taking these photos?"

The reason I asked the question was to find out from the photographer himself what the goal of the photos were. Once udnerstood I could then critique how well he accomplsihed his goal or presented his vision. As it stands, I didn't think it was very clear and that's why they didn't hold my interest.

I've found that asking a question like that also helps to make the photographer really think about what it was they were doing at the time. Sometimes, we take photos that appeal to us but don't really stop to think about why....and the result is a less tham optimal photo (optimal isn't a good word to use here but I think you'll get the point). It's makes us better photographers when we really stop to think about things like that.

In fact, often the photosgraphers answer to that question is the best critique they'll get. I'm very serious about that.

He asked "Do any of them appeal to you?" and I responed to that question. He never said why he liked the photos or took them himself. Sometimes that information is needed for a good critique. At least it is for me when I think the message the photos provide aren't clear. For example; What was he trying to emphasize with the first shot? What appealed to him when he took it?. The answers to these questions would allow me to judge how well he accomplished that.

I hope that clears things up for you. Thanks for bringing this to my attention as others probably took it the same way. I don't want anyone to think I'm rude!! And sorry for any misunderstanding. I hope we all remember how poorly the internet does at translating typed speech.

[F-15_Flyer]

YES IT DOES YOUR RIGHT TREVOR!!!

you never know

What people are thinking?

When they type something.


Well said.

[Overbeyond]

No disrespect taken. I think you just severely misunderstood the meaning behind my question. Looking at how it's worded I can see how you'd think that. I promise you I'm a nice person and wouldn't be rude like that

I was NOT asking "Why on earth did you waste your time taking these photos?"

The reason I asked the question was to find out from the photographer himself what the goal of the photos were. Once udnerstood I could then critique how well he accomplsihed his goal or presented his vision. As it stands, I didn't think it was very clear and that's why they didn't hold my interest.

I've found that asking a question like that also helps to make the photographer really think about what it was they were doing at the time. Sometimes, we take photos that appeal to us but don't really stop to think about why....and the result is a less tham optimal photo (optimal isn't a good word to use here but I think you'll get the point). It's makes us better photographers when we really stop to think about things like that.

In fact, often the photosgraphers answer to that question is the best critique they'll get. I'm very serious about that.

He asked "Do any of them appeal to you?" and I responed to that question. He never said why he liked the photos or took them himself. Sometimes that information is needed for a good critique. At least it is for me when I think the message the photos provide aren't clear. For example; What was he trying to emphasize with the first shot? What appealed to him when he took it?. The answers to these questions would allow me to judge how well he accomplished that.

I hope that clears things up for you. Thanks for bringing this to my attention as others probably took it the same way. I don't want anyone to think I'm rude!! And sorry for any misunderstanding. I hope we all remember how poorly the internet does at translating typed speech.

Hello again Trevor and thanks for coming back.
Our approaches to critique are obviously miles apart (nothing wrong with that)

"I've found that asking a question like that also helps to make the photographer really think about what it was they were doing at the time."
The implication here being that the photographer in this case has not thought about it. I would feel pretty confident that everybody on this forum have considered what appears in their viewfinder before they press the button. I dont think I have seen any photographs here that resemble point and shoot only.
But everybody will have their different reasons for pressing the button at that moment and personally I dont need to know them before I would offer my opinions on the results. In fact the less I know in advance the better. I avoid reading other peoples comments before I offer my own because I want to avoid any possibility of other opinions spilling over and diluting my thoughts.
Trevor I dont think you were being rude at all.
But the photographer asked the question if they appealed to you. You said no and threw the ball back in his court, I think unfairly, without commiting yourself in the least it seems until you got more information before you formed an opinion. The photographs I think are all that is needed. Any subsequent information may be interesting but after the initial critique is made.
Personally, Trevor, I am happy with the photo only. That is all the information I need to critique. If there are questions about say the mystery of a photograph i prefer not to know as I prefer to let the mystery stay and leave me wondering.

I wonder how other members of the forum feel about this.
Many Thanks Trevor.

[SmartWombat]

Normally I don't think of the pictures I'm posting as a set, this time I did - about half way through.

Chunk, I was looking for colour as well as pattern, yes.
After your comments on irregular patterns, I thought the not quite lined up trucks were a good subject.
Some people want focus on the nearmost subject, but I tried it in the viewwinfer and decided that focus deeper into the image instead of on the first truck gave a better use of DoF.

The colour progression in the phtos I posted, started out as an accident I admit.
When I was shooting I forgot about that yellow line on the windscreens.
But once I'd gone from the truck windscreens, to the trucks with my wife.
I realised I had a thing going with the yellow
So I looked for a way to get to that last photo in shades of blue - from the white & yellow.

Renault are so nice for photos, the team colours being blue and yellow.
I was attracted to the blue helmet on the yellow refuelling rig.
Then when I could get the reflection of the overhead lights as well, I thought I'd try to use it.

I'm wondering about a tighter crop of the helmet, giving more emphasis to the lights.
But I think it's going to lose a sense of what it is and I'm not happy with that.
An abstract shot of a blue and yellow helmet I can do anywhere
This shot could only be done in the F1 garage.

The cans, I'm not sure about the whole image.
The people on the left are distracting I think.
I found another one I forgot I took, how about this instead?
Cropped outhte distracting people - so now it's (almost) all in blue shades.

[Trevor Ash]

At this point I can either say nothing or say something in response to the discussion you and I are having. I don't think anything good will come out of it for the original photographer (because of things I'd like to say, not because of you) so I'm just going to kill my participation in this thread.

You're correct about the implication you pointed out and that's at the root of my original post in this thread.

I don't disagree with anything you said. But you've put me into a position where anything I say will come across negative. I don't want to be in that position.

Respectfully,
Trevor

[Trevor Ash]

SmartWombat,

My initial thought about these photos is that none of them are successful because none of them focus clearly enough on a subject. The photo with the trucks is promising but I don't think there is enough pattern to make it work. I think the particular angle chosen is a little steep and including a few more trucks may have helped.

The photo with the lady in the wheel chair almost works. But because so much of the scene is buses and there are additional people in the background they take a lot away from what I think should have been the focus; the lady in the wheelchair. If you were had been able to wait for the people in the background to go away or if you were to have moved to your right to recompose without the people I think it would have been stronger. It would have been especially successful to have a pattern shot like the first one but with a single person breaking up the pattern like this lady.

Now that I read your comments about the helmut I can see what you were after....the lighting reflectinf off of it. I didn't even notice the lighting reflecting off of it to begin with. I agree that it would have been an interesting subject. But I don't think yours worked because as you said you were probably too far away. I thought the subject was supposed to be the helmut itself and I thought the angle chosen was not the best possible angle for such a photo. Now I understand the helmut was only part of the environment.

I think your own critique about the last photo with the garbage cans sums up my overall opinion as well. There are a lot of distractions in it including the people and white pipes. The version that you posted later is MUCH better and is a very good composition. Still, the subject matter and mood of the shot doesn't appeal to me even though it is a technical perfect photo.

I hope this critique will help make up for the other nonsense I wrote which you never asked to hear about

[bobbythebandit]

Ilike the one of the helmet the best.The others are good but i think they would have more impact if presented singly.Then again i see that these have started a good deal of debate and that makes them worthwhile. Its also good to wander away from the main track and shoot the background.Keep ai it Paul and thanks for sharing.Hello to the mrs.
Bobby

[Overbeyond]

At this point I can either say nothing or say something in response to the discussion you and I are having. I don't think anything good will come out of it for the original photographer (because of things I'd like to say, not because of you) so I'm just going to kill my participation in this thread.

You're correct about the implication you pointed out and that's at the root of my original post in this thread.

I don't disagree with anything you said. But you've put me into a position where anything I say will come across negative. I don't want to be in that position.

Respectfully,
Trevor

Trevor' I respect your wishes and sincerity.
Tom

[SmartWombat]

Trevor - the #1 reason is because I was there

It's not often anyone can get into a live F1 pit lane as a mere mortal. So I took the opportunity to get as many racing shots as possible.

Then on the Friday morning, with the temperature -3C on the track and no cars running, I looked around for other things to photograph.

The trucks, I wanted to try working on patterns, Chunk has inspired me to have a go myself and while trying to get a picture of my wife in the paddock (#2) I realised that the trucks might make a good subject.

I've got other photos of my wife in the pit lane, and in the paddock. But when I spotted the white and yellow on the trucks and her yelloe jacket ... I thought I'd try to do something with it more than just a snapshot.
OK most people's holiday snapshots are not in the F1 paddock I agree But I wanted something more than "oh look there's my wife" yet again.

The helmet, I'm not really sure about it - which is why I wanted opinions.
I kind of like the reflections in the helmet of the lights, but it's not a strong enough subject on its own with just the reflections. At least not the way I capruted it. The wires as the bottom mean cropping close there's not a clearly defined helpet shape to work with

The cans, I wanted to try something just in colour. Shades of colour, rather than contrasting blue cans and red walls (which is the alternative). Stepping outside the comfort zone of cars & drivers. I don't think I achieved what I wanted, contrasting the curves of the cans and the stright lines of the pillars and walls.

Any suggestions on the last two?
Maybe a different viewpont on the cans?
I couldn't get into the garage (even my blagging has limitations) so I was rather stuck on that one.

[drg]

I feel the ELF trash bin has an entertaining quality! I'd do a little cropping perhaps on the image just to accentuate the obvious, so to speak.

If I recall, the F1 community has, albeit quietly for them, made quite an outreach to the differently abled community partially as a result of the obvious risks associated with the sport, and isn't it the Williams Principle who is now "on wheels". The bus shot thus works on several levels beyond the immediate. Trevor's point about the other people in the background can always be addressed with some digital photo work.

Good for you braving the rigors of the cold and maniac bureaucracy of the F1 racing world.
Do you have regular race ticks or just go to the qualifying?

Before the return to Indianapolis here, I had attended, among others, at Watkins Glen (as a kid) and the last F1 race in the U.S. in Phoenix (that was a disaster as I remember). I could probably get credentialed for Indy but everyone I know usually leaves town to avoid the helicopters and the Japanese Press. Talk about some ridculous camera gear, but I've wandered off topic.

I haven't had the time to seriously follow motorsports, except vicariously, for many years. The photos are a great reminder and maybe someday . . .

- CDP

[SmartWombat]

The technical part, I'm gettign far better at.
It's the other 90% that I need to improve now

Thanks, Trevor.

[Chunk]

Normally I don't think of the pictures I'm posting as a set, this time I did - about half way through.

Chunk, I was looking for colour as well as pattern, yes.
After your comments on irregular patterns, I thought the not quite lined up trucks were a good subject.
Some people want focus on the nearmost subject, but I tried it in the viewwinfer and decided that focus deeper into the image instead of on the first truck gave a better use of DoF.

The colour progression in the phtos I posted, started out as an accident I admit.
When I was shooting I forgot about that yellow line on the windscreens.
But once I'd gone from the truck windscreens, to the trucks with my wife.
I realised I had a thing going with the yellow
So I looked for a way to get to that last photo in shades of blue - from the white & yellowS
nip .
Renault are so nice for photos, the team colours being blue and yellow.
I was attracted to the blue helmet on the yellow refuelling rig.
Then when I could get the reflection of the overhead lights as well, I thought I'd try to use it.

I'm wondering about a tighter crop of the helmet, giving more emphasis to the lights.
But I think it's going to lose a sense of what it is and I'm not happy with that.
An abstract shot of a blue and yellow helmet I can do anywhere
This shot could only be done in the F1 garage.

The cans, I'm not sure about the whole image.
The people on the left are distracting I think.
I found another one I forgot I took, how about this instead?
Cropped outhte distracting people - so now it's (almost) all in blue shades.

With the busses, I like that they are fairly regular but the reflections change - probaly because of slightly different angles of the windshields.
The thing I like about the helmet is that it seems so round, even though the even lighting renders everything else flat. It's those curving reflections of the lines of lighting fixtures that give our eyes the visual clues that model it so strongly. Of all the methods of modelling a subject to give us the 3rd dimension, this is probably the most subtle. I like when similar reflections give great depth to shiny automobiles. Until you mentioned them, I didn't think about where that depth came from in the helmet shot - just enjoyed its rounded feel.
With the cans, I didn't mind the less sterile feel that the people gave to the shot without intruding on the pattern.

[SmartWombat]

>> I feel the ELF trash bin has an entertaining quality! I'd do a little cropping perhaps on the image just to accentuate the obvious, so to speak. <<

Be my guest, do you want the 8MP original digital image to work with?


>> If I recall, the F1 community has, albeit quietly for them, made quite an outreach to the differently abled community partially as a result of the obvious risks associated with the sport <<

Yes, I have some photographs from testing at Silverstone of the teams entertaing some very lucky special guests - all disabled in some way.


>> isn't it the Williams Principle who is now "on wheels". <<

Yes, Frank was injured in a car accident on the road, just driving too fast and flipped it.
Also don't forget Alex Zanardi, now back in a racing car with both legs amputated following that terrifying crash in Germany (http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/motorsport/1546118.stm).


>> The bus shot thus works on several levels beyond the immediate. Trevor's point about the other people in the background can always be addressed with some digital photo work. <<

I think Trevor is encouraging us to get it right - out of the camera and not on the monitor.
It's easy to see these things afterwards, and in some cases clone them out.
But it's another thing entirely to see it at the time you take your photo.


>> Do you have regular race ticks or just go to the qualifying? <<

Both, it depends on budget.
With the cost of F1 race attendance increasing year by year, we're branching out this year. Goodwood Festival of Speed, perhaps some DTM racing in Germany, Karting following the Zanardi team, maybe even le Mans.

The atmosphere at the race is fantastic. I was there when Michael won the at Spa Francorchamps. I saw his puncture and the fans walking out when he wouldn't win at Hockenheim. I saw Fernando Alonso finish 2nd in Barcelona, and the marshals on their knees bowing as he passed ...

But for photographic oppportunities as a member of the public, you can't beat testing.


>> I could probably get credentialed for Indy <<

I'm hoping that in a few years, I'll be good enough. Then I need support to be able to get the credentials. I don't expect it for F1 - they are extremely limited supply.
Perhaps for local circuits, or for testing.