And McCain chooses...

[GB1]

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying. What is wrong with Chinese knowing our technology? It sounded like you see China as an American enemy, and as a lesser country. That was what I was talking about as 'racism'.

I'd also like to ask, what does the word 'win' even mean?? Winning in Iraq means what? Al-Qaeda becomes completely annihalated and destroyed? You know that Al-Qaeda is still recruiting - the US occupation has rallied the Al-Qaedas base and cause. Dont you think that Iraq needs to take their own country into their own hands and take care of their own civil war?

I must agree, J. A lot of your writings here do seem to have racial undertones -the entire world is evil, corrupt, and 'not like us' and even when we're not at war with them we actually are. I've heard that one should choose their battles carefully -- you're choosing a lot of enemies there, aren't ya?

There is no question that GWB had an obsession with Iraq that went far beyond even the lies he institutionally perpetrated to rationalize the invasion of that country. Egg on every Americans' face - yours, mine, everyone's. The only thing that bothers me more than that is Americans that don't even seem to care ..

I keep asking myself what the Repubs see as Iraqi 'Endgame?' There are no easy answers, and believe me, I think that Obama has even less of an idea. In my estimation, one of the following could happen:

- It could go on exactly as it is for the next 100+ years and we can stay there and do exactly what we're doing and nothing will change. I don't see the American people having any enthusiasm for this - who would?

- Iraq becomes a stable, pro-west, predictable, democratic-style government with checks and balances that would never ever threaten the USA or any of its interests (e.g., oil supplies). Considering what they're surrounded by (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc), their history, religion, and general hot-headedness, I see the chance of this somewhere in the ballpark of winning the Powerball lottery and maybe being hit by lightning on the same day. Good luck to whoever believes this will happen.

- Nothing changes but the US withdraws their combat forces minus advisers, etc and instead roosts in Kuwait. It will keep a powerful strike force mostly composed of helicopters and special forces and will hit any known terrorist bases that start forming on Iraqi soil. This will go on indefinitely, or as long as the Kuwaitis as Ok with it. Repubs will blame the Dems for forcing this 'realignment', and the Dems will blame the Repubs for starting it in the first place.

- There is some good things happening in Iraq as far as political reconciliation and less terrorist attacks, so the US does something like the above in Kawait. But the relative peace it is so fragile that it all falls apart in a year or two or whatever - the point is, it falls apart eventually, because it is the middle east. Then it's right back to what it was, after millions are dead and Billions spent.

I keep asking myself why the USA is doing this in the ME. That is, why get involved with the crazy neighbors down the street? Why make their problems our problems?

[Greg McCary]

Even if we win the war, declare victory and pull out. How long will it take for the new goverment to fall to the terrorist again and another Saddam takes over? If that happens look at the lifes lost and billions wasted for what? The only way to insure that Iraq keeps a democratic goverment would be to set up military bases or at least divide the country like N & S Korea. Look at Iran. They were once allies.
The middle eastern countries have been fighting since before Christ and will continue to do so. The U.S. being in the middle of it is ridiculous. I had rather spend the billions wasted on the war on Homeland security and finding the terrorist living here right under our nose in the U.S. . And yes I agree Ronald Regan help build a great army. He was a great world leader. But he also knew better than try to and invade another country with troops. Look what he did to Gadhafi. Scared the living crap out of him with a failed assaination attempt.
By the way. I haven't made up my mind who I am going to vote for. It will probably take me watching the debates to figure it out. I think McCain is basically distancing himself from the Republican party just to get in the Whitehouse. I don't take stock in what he is saying.

[Frog]

The war in Iraq was won several years ago....remember.....their military defeated..Saddam caught, gone to trial, executed.
McCain....against GW tax cuts then for them and now wants to increase them...I guess he likes debt but I doubt he's ever had to balance a check book in his life.
I've never heard that Bill Clinton left a trail of murders.....give me a link.
The supreme court being more conservative is what got us the ok for tax districts to kick people out of the houses they've lived in all their life so Walmart can put up a store and increase the areas tax revenue.

[Anbesol]

Lots of good points GB1, I'd like to contend you on one though.

Considering what they're surrounded by (Iran, Saudi Arabia, Syria, etc), their history, religion, and general hot-headedness, I see the chance of this somewhere in the ballpark of winning the Powerball lottery and maybe being hit by lightning on the same day. Good luck to whoever believes this will happen.

Checks and balances can be established within their present style governments in the region. The problem with America and the middle east is largely their involvement and political position on the Israeli occupation. The US is Israel's greatest ally, and greatest bank roller too. Most every country in the region strikes a very different political position on the legality of the Israeli occupation than US. It is the US Israeli relationship that is the root cause of every "terrorist" attack, even the 9/11 commission report (as awful as it is) recognized the "terrorist's" as inspired by their position with regards to Palestine/Israel.

Essentially what I am trying to say, is that I don't think anything will ever be resolved in the middle east, anywhere, until the Israeli-Palestinian conflict is resolved. Until this happens, I imagine the same crap continues indefinitely.

The question is - how could the conflict possibly be resolved? Can you imagine either side yielding an inch? Who will give up the holy land? Who has rightful claim to it?

I keep asking myself why the USA is doing this in the ME. That is, why get involved with the crazy neighbors down the street? Why make their problems our problems?

The lifeblood of a politician - money.

[jgredline]

Well, since I got the race card pulled on me, not by one member but by two, I will explain myself and then bail on this conversation since I am obviously offending some people and making more enemies...I am aware that I am not liked here and so be it. It is what it is...

Now a little about me. I am Hispanic, born in Los Angeles, my Parents are Spanish and I am married to a Women who is part Indian and part Mexican....

I have 7 kids, two of which are adopted.
One is white/mexican and the other is 100% Malaysian...She is currently attending school at USC. Go Trojans...
One of my very best friends name is Robert Austin and yes he is black. For 8 years ''MY COMPANY'' was run by my Buddy Robert Choo, who is Chinese.

So am I a racist? Believe what you want but the evidence says NO.

Maybe I misunderstood what you were saying.

Yes you did. I am speaking of the Chinese Government. You took me out of context.

What is wrong with Chinese knowing our technology?

What is wrong with communist China knowing our technology?
Do I really need to spell this out for you.

It sounded like you see China as an American enemy, and as a lesser country. That was what I was talking about as 'racism'.

Certainly China is not our friend. If you think they are, you are not paying attention to world events.

I'd also like to ask, what does the word 'win' even mean?? Winning in Iraq means what? Al-Qaeda becomes completely annihalated and destroyed? You know that Al-Qaeda is still recruiting - the US occupation has rallied the Al-Qaedas base and cause. Dont you think that Iraq needs to take their own country into their own hands and take care of their own civil war?

I do...I believe that IRAQ does need to take control of their own country. But I also believe that we need to leave slowly. I am not opposed to a time table as it will put pressure on the IRAQ's to move on their own accord.

[Didache]

I didn't read Javier's comments as at all racist. Sure he has strong views and is maybe a little inclined to the polemic, but that is not the same as racism (a card played too often and too easily these days imo)

Mike

[Greg McCary]

On a personal level Javier I consider you an outstanding American citizen with strong beliefs in your Country. I also consider you a friend as well. But we are not suppose to get personal here in OT.

[Frog]

That's what happens when politics and religion get into the game.
It would surprise me if anyone here could not meet for a cup of coffee or go on a photo jaunt or help his neighbor with the broken leg mow his lawn. Such is life!

[Greg McCary]

That's what happens when politics and religion get into the game.
It would surprise me if anyone here could not meet for a cup of coffee or go on a photo jaunt or help his neighbor with the broken leg mow his lawn. Such is life!

Amen to that Frog. But we are all still brothers under the skin.

[Anbesol]

Well, since I got the race card pulled on me, not by one member but by two, I will explain myself and then bail on this conversation since I am obviously offending some people and making more enemies...I am aware that I am not liked here and so be it. It is what it is...

I like you just fine.

Do I really need to spell this out for you.

Well, I am not incredibly fond of them either, but they have a 1.5 billion person population and they deserve to be able to protect themselves. I certainly don't think they are any more crooked than the US government, and they already have those 'weapons'.

Certainly China is not our friend. If you think they are, you are not paying attention to world events.

World events? What makes you think they are a more dangerous or crooked government then our own?

[Anbesol]

By the way I wasn't talking about the skin color type of racism, but the nationality type of racism.

[mn shutterbug]

This has been very entertaining and educational. However, I think we are all screwed whether Obama or McCain get in. One wants to kill our babies and the other wants our soldiers killed in Iraq.

[GB1]

Well, since I got the race card pulled on me, not by one member but by two, I will explain myself and then bail on this conversation since I am obviously offending some people and making more enemies...I am aware that I am not liked here and so be it. It is what it is...

J, I wasn't calling you a racist - I was saying that the statements you were making have racial undertones. I know that's a fine line but a line nevertheless.

Realize that I find much of the Republican party's platform in general to have racial undertones, and to be overly judgmental of others, so when you state your opinions which tend to coincide with the Repub's platform, I immediately feel need to speak up. I definitely do not mean to 'gang up' on you or anything. The Off-Topic forum is about explosive topics like religion and politics, so one can expect the conversations to become somewhat heated at times.

Note that I especially feel that the USA must continue separation of church and state, and the 'intelligent design' debate (if one can call it that) is simply waaaaaaaaaaaay over the top.

Gb

[walterick]

Okay guys I can see that we are playing nicely... but we're walking a thin boundary again.

Thank you for keeping it civil. And thank you for deliberately avoiding personal comments! I am watching and I see all your efforts.

However, for clarification: Saying "It is my opinion that the Purple Party has red tendencies" is fine, that's a political opinion directed at a group. But saying "YOU have red tendencies" is not okay. That is a comment directed at a poster. That's the difference between a comment that is acceptable versus one that is unacceptable here.

It know its a hard topic to keep calm in, and I appreciate the efforts!

Thank you
Rick

[jgredline]

By Al Mohler
http://www.albertmohler.com/blog.php
A Private Conviction About Murder?

Speaking Sunday on NBC's "Meet the Press," Sen. Joe Biden, the Democratic nominee for Vice President, made headlines by stating that he accepts "as a matter of faith" that human life begins at conception, but he would not impose that view on others as a matter of law.

Sen. Biden's statement is similar in form to those offered by other Catholic politicians like former New York Governor Mario Cuomo. Nevertheless, what it really represents is far more horrifying than may be recognized at first.

Speaking on "Meet the Press," Biden responded to a question from Tom Brokaw. The anchor had asked Biden what he would say if Sen. Barack Obama asked him when human life begins [see video clip here]:

I'd say, "Look, I know when it begins for me." It's a personal and private issue. For me, as a Roman Catholic, I'm prepared to accept the teachings of my church. But let me tell you. There are an awful lot of people of great confessional faiths-Protestants, Jews, Muslims and others-who have a different view. They believe in God as strongly as I do. They're intensely as religious as I am religious. They believe in their faith and they believe in human life, and they have differing views as to when life-I'm prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at the moment of conception. But that is my judgment. For me to impose that judgment on everyone else who is equally and maybe even more devout than I am seems to me is inappropriate in a pluralistic society. And I know you get the push back, "Well, what about fascism?" Everybody, you know, you going to say fascism's all right? Fascism isn't a matter of faith. No decent religious person thinks fascism is a good idea.

Biden first calls the issue "personal and private," an interesting way to introduce a statement about a matter that inevitably has relevance to public policy. He claims to accept the teachings of his church, but then states that other religions hold to other views, and these believers "believe in God as strongly as I do" and are equally religious.

We live in a pluralistic society, he argues, and it would be improper for him to "impose" his judgment on others, who may be "equally and maybe even more devout than I."

He then realizes something of the intellectual problem he has just created and argues that, for example, all good religious folk would oppose fascism, and thus we can presumably establish that as public policy. "No decent religious person thinks fascism is a good idea," he concludes. So is the new criterion for public policy to be what a "good religious person" might think?

Brokaw then asked Biden about his support of abortion rights, given what he has just said about his belief that life begins at conception. Biden answered, "I voted against telling everyone else in the country that they have to accept my religiously based view that it's a moment of conception."

Kate Phillips of The New York Times explained Biden's predicament this way:

In the interview Sunday, Mr. Biden tried to walk the line between the staunch abortion-rights advocates in his party and his own religious beliefs. While he said he did not often talk about his faith, he said of those who disagree with him: “They believe in their faith and they believe in human life, and they have differing views as to when life — I’m prepared as a matter of faith to accept that life begins at the moment of conception.”

Sen. Biden may have been attempting to "walk the line" politically, but a closer look at his actual argument is truly horrifying.

Sen. Biden says, and we must take him at his word, that he accepts as a matter of faith that human life begins at conception. But, he argues, he is perfectly willing to support a woman's right to choose to end that human life.

The killing of human life is called homicide. Murder is the willful taking of a human life. The senator has here stated that he believes abortion to be homicide, but he defends a woman's right to kill the unborn human life within her because he would not impose his beliefs about human life (and thus about homicide) on others.

In other words, if we take Sen. Biden seriously, he would defer to others who believe otherwise when it comes to the law.

How can he live with this? There are significant questions about the extent to which some matters can properly be legislated. But there is no question that the government -- any government -- must take a stand on the question of human life. This is why the abortion issue simply will not and cannot go away. The government takes a side on this question, like it or not.

I believe Sen. Biden to be a serious man, and that is what is most frightening about this. Can a morally serious man really say that he believes that unborn babies are human beings, but that it should be a protected right to kill them?

[jgredline]

This has been very entertaining and educational. However, I think we are all screwed whether Obama or McCain get in. One wants to kill our babies and the other wants our soldiers killed in Iraq.

Except babies are left with out the choice. When a Soldier joins the military, he/she knows that it a commitment that may cost him / her life.

[jgredline]

I didn't read Javier's comments as at all racist. Sure he has strong views and is maybe a little inclined to the polemic, but that is not the same as racism (a card played too often and too easily these days imo)

Mike

Thanks Mike,
I would even have to agree that I am at times ''polemic''...Have not used that word since bible college, but ok...But let me be more clear...As a Christian, I can't separate and compartmentalize who I am...

Would Jesus ever under any circumstance approve the murder of a Child? NO.
Yet that is exactly what many people do with out conscience....

If there is a silver lining to the Murder of children it is this...Atleast they are home with Jesus...(unless of course you hold to Calvinism and then perhaps the baby is in hell as it was not one of the elect)

[Greg McCary]

Javier I agree with you on abortion. I am pro life all the way. Yet I always wonder what the big deal is that the President has to be pro life. If you just think about it? The President, to overturn abortion would have to stay in office long enough to "Nominate" enough judges to overturn it. I highlight nominate because he really dosen't put the judge in power congress does. How many judges does a President nominate over one or two terms on average? I really think in the long run it would be tough for a President to overturn Roe vs. Wade by nominating judges.
Then as stated here earlier I really think if by chance it ever does get overturned it will be each states decision. I am sure all 50 states would not be the same. I am not trying to down play the issue I just think there is more to consider in the big picture when troops are being killed every day.
There are homeless people here in the US, people without health care, terrorist living here right under our noses but we are pumping billions of dollars trying to liberate a country that in my opinon will be just like it was a few years after we are gone.
Correct me if I am wrong but the hijackers from 911 lived here in the US and learned how to fly a plane in Florida.

[Anbesol]

Except babies are left with out the choice. When a Soldier joins the military, he/she knows that it a commitment that may cost him / her life.

What they don't know is that they've committed their lives to a pack of lies sold by sleezy politicians and a conscious controlling media. Some call it 'fighting for our freedom', but for over 60 years no military confrontation has ever been close to 'fighting for our freedom', since no global power ever began to threaten them. The principal behind our politics of nation building and 'fighting terrorism' is still not pro-life, thought and consideration for the value of human life is outweighed by political fixation, pride, and ultimately the military industrial complex. You went to bible school, what do you make of 'He who lives by the sword shall die by it."

*edit - Greg - its a fact that even Bush confessed that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Even he won't try to pass off that lie any more.

[Greg McCary]

I really think GW is in Iraq for one reason. His oil buddies need new drilling territory. He wants the US to control oil in the middle east and he thought Iraq was a "Slam Dunk". He was wrong. I had rather our troops and money protect my freedom here on US soil than being abroad. If we win in Iraq we will have to occupy it to keep it. How much will that cost?

[jgredline]

Javier I agree with you on abortion. I am pro life all the way.

Greg, I new this even with out you ever mentioning this...

Yet I always wonder what the big deal is that the President has to be pro life. If you just think about it? The President, to overturn abortion would have to stay in office long enough to "Nominate" enough judges to overturn it. I highlight nominate because he really dosen't put the judge in power congress does. How many judges does a President nominate over one or two terms on average? I really think in the long run it would be tough for a President to overturn Roe vs. Wade by nominating judges.

I agree with what you here and your logic makes sense, but let me go a little bit further...The next President will in all likely hood appoint the next three judges...Now congress has a say so in what Judges go in and with the dems in power it will be difficult either way, but at least we have a chance...But it goes way beyond abortion. If we get the supreme ct justices that Obama wants, it will not only open the flood gates in terms of abortions, but you can bet that Homosexual marriage will also be federal law...OH, oh....Did I just open up pandoras box?

Back to abortion for a minute...
Barack obama supports Partial birth abortion and Infanticide...
Why are those with liberal views avoiding this here on PR.??

Then as stated here earlier I really think if by chance it ever does get overturned it will be each states decision. I am sure all 50 states would not be the same. I am not trying to down play the issue I just think there is more to consider in the big picture when troops are being killed every day.

iF it becomes federal law, the states will not have a choice.
As far as the troops, it breaks my heart to see and hear of our troops dying. My Company sends care packages down to IRAQ
every month with the simple things of life like toiletries, tooth paste, shavers, etc...It is not much, but it's something....We should not take out our aggressions on the soldiers for a war that was being run by this democratic congress.

There are homeless people here in the US, people without health care, terrorist living here right under our noses but we are pumping billions of dollars trying to liberate a country that in my opinon will be just like it was a few years after we are gone.
Correct me if I am wrong but the hijackers from 911 lived here in the US and learned how to fly a plane in Florida.

I agree..This is one of the reasons I liked Ron Paul. His belief in lets take care of the United States FIRST...My biggest Gripe with Ron Paul was he did NOT support ISRAEL....

It does bother me how we can send Billions of dollars to countries who hate us...I don't understand why we are feeding Russia for example....Now, if the people of those nations got the help, that is one thing, but in most cases, the governments are the ones keeping the loot...

[jgredline]

What they don't know is that they've committed their lives to a pack of lies sold by sleezy politicians and a conscious controlling media. Some call it 'fighting for our freedom', but for over 60 years no military confrontation has ever been close to 'fighting for our freedom', since no global power ever began to threaten them. The principal behind our politics of nation building and 'fighting terrorism' is still not pro-life, thought and consideration for the value of human life is outweighed by political fixation, pride, and ultimately the military industrial complex. You went to bible school, what do you make of 'He who lives by the sword shall die by it."

*edit - Greg - its a fact that even Bush confessed that Iraq had absolutely nothing to do with 9/11. Even he won't try to pass off that lie any more.

Would u like me to recommend some U.S. History and world History books for you to study? Heck, I would even let you borrow some. Let me know and I will send them to u.

[jgredline]

I really think GW is in Iraq for one reason. His oil buddies need new drilling territory. He wants the US to control oil in the middle east and he thought Iraq was a "Slam Dunk". He was wrong. I had rather our troops and money protect my freedom here on US soil than being abroad. If we win in Iraq we will have to occupy it to keep it. How much will that cost?

Well, since GWB will not defend his position, neither will I...

[Frog]

Are you saying that korea, viet-nam, and iraq x2 were fought to protect our freedom, Jaiver?
I'm also not aware that the democratic congress is running the war.....personally I wish they would.

[jgredline]

Pandoras box is opening...

Thank you to everyone for making this thread CIVIL despite the very heated topic! I knew we could do it!

We touched on many of the most hotly debated subjects facing the country today, and I think we're still standing.

Now I would like to take a look at the issues:

It turns out, Obama and McCain share similar views on several key issues. These are:

Gay marriage It is morally and ethically wrong...
Global warming...Al Gores Lies..Global warming is nothing new...Global warming has been documented as early as the mid 1500's
Immigration....If your here illegally, you need to get the boot.
Stem cell research ...So long as babies are not been harvested for research..I have no problem with stem cell research on adult stem cells...Umbilical cord is ok as well...
Nuclear weapons....While I would prefer a world with out them, they are hear to stay...We can't let evil nations get them...