And McCain chooses...

[jgredline]

jgredline - it has nothing to do with my views on these or any other issues: it is the question of how you address those of other views which I was talking about.

I have not been disrespectful of others views. If I have point me to them and I will apologize. The person who I have been attacking is Barack Obama and unless proven wrong, that I will not apologize for. He is a wolf is sheeps clothing...

However, as you ask: I don't think the abortion issue can be summed up as "pro life" vs "pro choice" - there are variations even within those camps and the moral questions are complex. Nobody thinks abortion is a "good" thing and virtually everyone I know who has ever had one, or opted not to have one, has had to make a very hard decision which is not always easy to live with. The issue (to me) is to recognise that NEITHER side takes this lightly and therefore it is unfair for EITHER side to regard the other as evil/monstrous/delete as applicable. For myself, I do not regard abortion as a moral good but I would not want to take the choice away from women (with certain caveats such as time, etc). You may call that "pro-choice" - I prefer to think of it as a difficult modern issue which has strong arguments on both sides. You have to remember also that I do not live in the US, but in the UK where the issue does not have the same resonance as it does for you.

Have you ever heard of the evil organization called ''planned parenthood''?
Again, as a Minister of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, how do you justify the murder of children? Since you are a Minister, please point me to scripture to Justify this...

On your other point, I am certainly not a young earth creationist (which I presume you are from your earlier comments). I am quite content with the view that God gave us brains and inquiring minds and that scientific understanding is not at odds with religious faith. Indeed, many scientists through the ages (eg Gregor Mendel, Michael Faraday, even Sir Isaac Newton) regarded their scientific work as "glorifying to God" because it made clear the wonder of his creation.

I do hold and believe that God created the world we live in in 6 days and is six to ten thousand years old, however, this is a grey issue and I am not dogmatic in this view...I simply do not hold to the gap theory as I believe it take Glory away from God...

However, whether or not you agree with me (I am guessing you don't!), my point was simply that people DO take varying views and they do so often after considerable thought and in full awareness of the moral/ethical/religious questions which are raised. Please don't demonise them - as you would not expect to be demonised by them.

Regards
Mike

Again, show me where I demonized anyone. The only one who has me perplexed is you with your pro choice stand and being a minister. I just don't see how that is possible.

[Greg McCary]

The guy that owns Hunt Oil has contributed big money to George Bush and is also going to build GB's Presidential Library once he leaves office. I read this in News Week. The magazine was a year old at the time I read it.. Click the following link. Could this be the "real" reason we are lossing lifes in Irag? So George Bush's big friends can explore for oil. If so, the whole war thing and weapons of mass destruction were a smoke screen. I don't like Rush, but one thing he says that rings true is "Follow the money trail" Hmmm

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...72&ft=1&f=1001

[Frog]

Obama a baby killer facts http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...08.barackobama

[Frog]

Obama and Ayers http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3736043.ece

[Frog]

U.S. health care ranking...I preferred Hillary's plan. Wonder how many baby's die to feed the current corporate ideology health care we now have?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

[Frog]

Barak hates America because he doesn't wear a flag pin? Neither do I. Doesn't put his hand over his heart during national anthem...well hand over heart is for pledge not anthem.
Doh!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23315711/

[jgredline]

Obama a baby killer facts http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisf...08.barackobama

Interesting that you would use a link out of the UK to defend barack Obama..
The fact is this....Obama supports the ''murder'' of children who are alive and breathing after botched abortions...In other words after the doctors failed to kill the baby while in the womb, they killed it outside of the womb...Yes babies who lived as long as 45 minutes after being born into this world who would have lived had they been given care to where left to die...
Your Man Obama Barack supports this killing of innocent babies....

[jgredline]

Here is video of Barack obama ''himself'' condoning the murder of babies......

[jgredline]

If you really want to know the truth about this evil man......

[jgredline]

"Obama's Twisted Mind - Obama's sick voting record"

[jgredline]

Obama and Ayers http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle3736043.ece

[jgredline]

Barak hates America because he doesn't wear a flag pin? Neither do I. Doesn't put his hand over his heart during national anthem...well hand over heart is for pledge not anthem.
Doh!
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23315711/

It is not just that...
The fact that he sat under ''his'' mentor an American hating preaching pastor for 20 years says allot about him...How about his wife..''for the ''first'' time I am proud to be an American''...

[jgredline]

U.S. health care ranking...I preferred Hillary's plan. Wonder how many baby's die to feed the current corporate ideology health care we now have?

http://www.photius.com/rankings/healthranks.html

While I don't like the Clintons, Hillary would have been a better choice...At least she does love America and at least she is NOT a racist...

[Frog]

Personally I've never been "proud" to be an American. I was born here and take no artificial pride in something I had no choice over. I am proud of some of what America has done and ashamed of other things.
His wife's statement has been widely taken out of context and was said when she was speaking of American politics....I've yet to be proud of American politics.

[GB1]

... do you know that one of the major reasons for World War I was nationalism?

[jgredline]

... do you know that one of the major reasons for World War I was nationalism?

Yes. It was. How do u tie it in with today?

[GB1]

Yes. It was. How do u tie it in with today?

That's an easy question:

If you don't support a particular war, you're "unpatriotic."
If you don't agree with your President, you're unpatriotic.
If you think that there should be social programs to help this or that group, you're a communist.
If you think that torturing prisoners is bad, you're questioning your leaders and again, you're unpatriotic.
If you don't like choice A or B, you're unpatriotic.
If you think, you're unpatriotic. Shut your mouth and do what the big propaganda machine tells you to.

I bring up WWI because a big part of it was the feeling that 'my' country is better than yours. Taken to the extreme , it was part of the reason for the alliances the sides made - France-England-Russia, then Germany-Austria-Serbia. A big part of the reasons for millions dieing in mud holes with a bullet through their heart was rooted in this ultra nationalism. You were no longer a human, you were a Frenchman, or a German, whatever. Everyone else was your competition and your enemy. Idiotic.

[jgredline]

That's an easy question:

If you don't support a particular war, you're "unpatriotic." Nope, not true.
If you don't agree with your President, you're unpatriotic. I disagree with Bush on allot of things.
If you think that there should be social programs to help this or that group, you're a communist. I believe people who are able to work, should work.I believe those who need help should get help.
If you think that torturing prisoners is bad, you're questioning your leaders and again, you're unpatriotic. I do not believe in torturing people.
If you don't like choice A or B, you're unpatriotic.
If you think, you're unpatriotic. Shut your mouth and do what the big propaganda machine tells you to. Your statement and belief. I respect that.

I bring up WWI because a big part of it was the feeling that 'my' country is better than yours. Taken to the extreme , it was part of the reason for the alliances the sides made - France-England-Russia, then Germany-Austria-Serbia. A big part of the reasons for millions dieing in mud holes with a bullet through their heart was rooted in this ultra nationalism. You were no longer a human, you were a Frenchman, or a German, whatever. Everyone else was your competition and your enemy. Idiotic.

Like I said, I agree, but still do not see how that plays out today. especially in this conversation.

[jgredline]

Mike,
I am still waiting for a response the question I asked you.
Perhaps you have not been on?

[GB1]

Like I said, I agree, but still do not see how that plays out today. especially in this conversation.

J - I think history can teach us things. I see very similar analogies in today's day and age. I also read from your earlier post on Obama that

"He is an American hating liberal...."

Just curious by what justification do you say this? I've noted on my last post that people tend to throw this charge out very lightly (indeed, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, which I thandfully do not , I bet he makes this accusation at least several times a day) and to try to make people do what they want.

My observations......

[jgredline]

J - I think history can teach us things. I see very similar analogies in today's day and age.

G, I love History and take great pleasure in teaching and reading World History, American History and Church History books to my young kids...History does teach us allot and History does repeat itself in many ways..But in todays day and age, we are far to smart, (I hope) to repeat the same mistakes and Barack Obama is a Mistake....

I also read from your earlier post on Obama that

"He is an American hating liberal...."

Just curious by what justification do you say this? I've noted on my last post that people tend to throw this charge out very lightly (indeed, if you listen to Rush Limbaugh, which I thandfully do not , I bet he makes this accusation at least several times a day) and to try to make people do what they want.

My observations......

First, let me make a few comments.
Rush Limbagh...I do not listen to him nor do I know much about him...


I am a person who takes the evidence of all things and scrutinizes it. It is in my nature. This is more true of the bible...I love apologetics so much so that I enrolled myself in Bible College studied and learned to read and write biblical Greek and even studied Hebrew some (although I will admit I was in over my head there ) I say this not to brag because it is something that in this website and most others will actually bring ridicule to me, but I say this to explain my position and why I feel so strongly about it....

G, I have the utmost respect for the atheist and agnostics and those with Liberal views ''that could care less about religion'' ....

Why is this important? For a few reasons...
The bible says '' Mat 7:1 "JUDGE not, that you be not judged. But people often take this out of context. The following verse says Mat 7:2"For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you.

So basically as a Christian and this verse is only for ''Christians ''
I will be judged by the same standard I am judging Barack Obama because he ''claims'' to be a Christian...The bible says that we are also to avoid the appearance of evil...Yet by association barack obama is surrounded by evil as I mentioned in my previous post and if you sit down to listen to those videos you will see why I believe the way I do...

How can he sit in a church and listen to racist rhetoric for over twenty years and call this American hating false preacher his mentor?

I will go further and say it is NOT possible to be a liberal and a Born Again Christian. A born again Christian will have the Holy Spirit who will lead the individual in spirit and truth...And proof of this is that the Glory will be pointed to Jesus the Christ and will line up with Scripture....

This is why I have a huge problem with ministers who claim to be ministers of the Gospel of Jesus Christ and yet be pro choice?

If Barack Obama was NOT claiming to be a Christian, then while I will still disagree with his positions and still view them as wrong, atleast I will be able to understand...But the only reason he says he is a Christian is so that he can get the Christian vote...Yes there are many ignorant Christians out there...The fact is he is a Muslim...The Koran teaches it is OK to lie for self gain so long as you lie to the Infadel....

So that I have said my piece, I will sit back and wait for the attacks.

[Frog]

The fact of the matter is, sir, that if you and I saw a table in the desert, you would describe it as out of place and I would wonder how it got there.
That is just an example and maybe not an accurate one. What I am pointing out is that we can both look at the same things and see something completely different.

And if you judge by the standard you have set for yourself then others will judge you by their standard. The only standard I have set for myself is to love my neighbor as myself for that is like loving God.

This debate will never go anywhere because your eyes are closed to what others say and mine are closed to what you say. Neither will be able to understand the others point.

[jgredline]

The only standard I have set for myself is to love my neighbor as myself for that is like loving God.

But do you even know what this means?
The bible says, that there is no greater Love than one who would lay down his life for another. How does this play into the economy of killing babies?

[Didache]

Javier .. the reason I have not replied is because that would be about "me" and not about the thread. Having said that, I have no objection to explaining it outside the forum. If you care to pursue this, PM me your email and I will respond there provided any correspondence is done in an atmosphere of mutual respect.

Mike

[Dylan8i]

so i guess this whole election is about abortion? thats one minor (won't affect that many poepl) point out of many many many other topics. all ive heard J talk about in support of republicans is abortion.


and just something ive been thinking about: how can pro life people be so pro gun? oh its ok to shoot an animal ( also a creation of god) but yet its so bad to kill a few cells that can't survive on their own? (and no im not anti gun).

or how they can so wrecklessly knowlingly destroy the environment in which we where placed by god.