Aliens - and I don't mean border crossers

[zrfraser]

Interesting topic. I find it highly possible that their could be intelligent life elsewhere in this vast universe. My sister when she was younger swears to have been abducted, and I have no reason not to believe her.

[mn shutterbug]

My sister when she was younger swears to have been abducted, and I have no reason not to believe her.

You have got to be kidding.

[Xia_Ke]

You have got to be kidding.

I don't see how the possibility of an alien abduction is any more far fetched than the possibility of an invisible being creating the world around us

[jgredline]

I don't see how the possibility of an alien abduction is any more far fetched than the possibility of an invisible being creating the world around us

So how do you explain the world around us?

[Xia_Ke]

So how do you explain the world around us?

I am not getting into a religious debate because nothing good can come out of it as far as I'm concerned. My point was that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and while his beliefs might sound crazy to you, yours might sound crazy to someone else.

[jgredline]

I am not getting into a religious debate because nothing good can come out of it as far as I'm concerned. My point was that everyone is entitled to their own beliefs and while his beliefs might sound crazy to you, yours might sound crazy to someone else.

And I repeat.
Pretty good list.
For ''fun'' and I say ''FUN'' IT might be interesting to look at all seven views. While I clearly fall into the first one on your list, I would love to hear what others believe in regards to where they fit on the list....

Having been in many debates over the years, I feel it is important to say this...That at the end of the day we remain friends..How do we do this? Simple...
Respect each others view and opinion.
No Ad Homien attacks, we are not kids
and finally, Agree to disagree....

But understand this. God is a part of me that can't be separated. I am who I am...
and even though I disagree with your views on this, I respect them as your views...
and yes, I also do understand that my beliefs seem foolish to you and I accept that as well....

[Xia_Ke]

And I repeat.
Pretty good list.
For ''fun'' and I say ''FUN'' IT might be interesting to look at all seven views. While I clearly fall into the first one on your list, I would love to hear what others believe in regards to where they fit on the list....

Having been in many debates over the years, I feel it is important to say this...That at the end of the day we remain friends..How do we do this? Simple...
Respect each others view and opinion.
No Ad Homien attacks, we are not kids
and finally, Agree to disagree....

But understand this. God is a part of me that can't be separated. I am who I am...
and even though I disagree with your views on this, I respect them as your views...
and yes, I also do understand that my beliefs seem foolish to you and I accept that as well....

It's all good I've just found that from other boards, that religious "discussions" never seem to end well, so I try to avoid them like the plague...LOL

This would be fun to have everyone touch on their views of all 7 on the list. I will do so when I get home from work tonight. I found the Hawking lecture that I think fanelli is talking about. I want to read that first.

[mwfanelli2]

So how do you explain the world around us?

Oh no! We already have a 4-page thread about this!

[mwfanelli2]

I find this very interesting! It is a topic I dedicate a bit of time to in my classes when I am teaching astronomy. The breakdown runs along the way we see here:

1. Religious: Man is the center of the universe so we are the sole benefactors of god's attention.

2. Practical: If I don't see hard evidence I don't believe it.

3. Eyewitness: So many people report seeing UFOs, and all are alien life forms (!), it has to be true.

4. Abductees: Aliens love to stick probes where they don't belong.

5. Statistical: With so many stars, if only 10% have planets.... you know the drill..

6. Grab bag: variations on, and mixtures of, the above.

7. The very interesting comments by Stephen Hawking that shoots down the statistical approach. I'll reveal this later on.

My students are overwhelmingly in favor of "unlikely." Odd. I'm more along the "practical" track but secretly hoping for LGM to be true.

[Xia_Ke]

5. Statistical: With so many stars, if only 10% have planets.... you know the drill..

That's my thought on it. With so many stars/galaxies out there, I think it is highly probable that we are not the only intelligent life forms out there. I also don't see any reason why they wouldn't come here to study us if they had the means. If we found other life out there, and we had the means to go and study them, you know we would without hesitation.

[mn shutterbug]

If we found other life out there, and we had the means to go and study them, you know we would without hesitation.

Of course, our government has the funds to do so. Our country has wasted so much of our money on space programs, why not go farther in debt investigating the extremely minute chance of other life forms.

[berrywise]

Of course, our government has the funds to do so. Our country has wasted so much of our money on space programs, why not go farther in debt investigating the extremely minute chance of other life forms.

Why would God create such an enormous universe if we were supposed to only live in our one little teeny weeny bit of it. What is the purpose of it?

[schrackman]

Why would God create such an enormous universe if we were supposed to only live in our one little teeny weeny bit of it. What is the purpose of it?

God's reasons are given in Genesis chapter 1, verse 14: To help man divide day from night, to be for signs, and so we can keep track of time.

But there is also a more important reason given by God:

"The heavens declare the glory of God, and the firmament showeth his handiwork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge. There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard." Psalm 19:1

In other words, this enourmous universe was created by God to tell you and every other human on earth "I exist."

Even when I was an unbeliever, I would often marvel at the universe and the utter incomprehensible size of it. Now I marvel at the God who made it.

[jgredline]

So, for all those people who decide that the universe is just so big there has to be other intelligent life out there, there is also the equal but opposite view: maybe life is so incredibly difficult to achieve and incredibly rare that it takes an entire universe to get one example of it.

Both arguments are equal and there is no way to tell which is right.

Please, I know the "faithful" out there will throw all sorts of supernatural stuff out but hey, religion is just something people want to believe so they can feel happy at night. It doesn't help choose the real truth here any more than talk of Valhalla and the valkyries and norns do.

Why would God create such an enormous universe if we were supposed to only live in our one little teeny weeny bit of it. What is the purpose of it?

The Key word here in this statement is create. This brings up a very good point...
The bible starts out by making a very bold statement.
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth..The Hebrew word for create is bara. It means to make something that has not been in existence before...This is important, because the ''something'' would mean that God created all ''matter''...Notice also that heavens is a plural word. This single verse is implying and saying that God created ''all matter''....

Now here is a conversation that All Mighty God had with a fellow named Job...Now weather you believe it or not, Read it anyway. If anything it is a pretty cool story and then ask the question...

Why would God create people and only people in the first place?
I believe the answer to this question will answer the question as to weather or not there are aliens out there...

The Lord Reveals His Omnipotence to Job 38

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said:
2 “Who is this who darkens counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Now prepare yourself like a man;
I will question you, and you shall answer Me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Tell Me, if you have understanding.
5 Who determined its measurements?
Surely you know!
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 To what were its foundations fastened?
Or who laid its cornerstone,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?
8 “Or who shut in the sea with doors,
When it burst forth and issued from the womb;
9 When I made the clouds its garment,
And thick darkness its swaddling band;
10 When I fixed My limit for it,
And set bars and doors;
11 When I said,
‘This far you may come, but no farther,
And here your proud waves must stop!’
12 “Have you commanded the morning since your days began,
And caused the dawn to know its place,
13 That it might take hold of the ends of the earth,
And the wicked be shaken out of it?
14 It takes on form like clay under a seal,
And stands out like a garment.
15 From the wicked their light is withheld,
And the upraised arm is broken.
16 “Have you entered the springs of the sea?
Or have you walked in search of the depths?
17 Have the gates of death been revealed to you?
Or have you seen the doors of the shadow of death?
18 Have you comprehended the breadth of the earth?
Tell Me, if you know all this.
19 “Where is the way to the dwelling of light?
And darkness, where is its place,
20 That you may take it to its territory,
That you may know the paths to its home?
21 Do you know it, because you were born then,
Or because the number of your days is great?
22 “Have you entered the treasury of snow,
Or have you seen the treasury of hail,
23 Which I have reserved for the time of trouble,
For the day of battle and war?
24 By what way is light diffused,
Or the east wind scattered over the earth?
25 “Who has divided a channel for the overflowing water,
Or a path for the thunderbolt,
26 To cause it to rain on a land where there is no one,
A wilderness in which there is no man;
27 To satisfy the desolate waste,
And cause to spring forth the growth of tender grass?
28 Has the rain a father?
Or who has begotten the drops of dew?
29 From whose womb comes the ice?
And the frost of heaven, who gives it birth?
30 The waters harden like stone,
And the surface of the deep is frozen. 
31 “Can you bind the cluster of the Pleiades, 
Or loose the belt of Orion?
32 Can you bring out Mazzaroth in its season?
Or can you guide the Great Bear with its cubs?
33 Do you know the ordinances of the heavens?
Can you set their dominion over the earth?
34 “Can you lift up your voice to the clouds,
That an abundance of water may cover you?
35 Can you send out lightnings, that they may go,
And say to you, ‘Here we are!’?
36 Who has put wisdom in the mind?
Or who has given understanding to the heart?
37 Who can number the clouds by wisdom?
Or who can pour out the bottles of heaven,
38 When the dust hardens in clumps,
And the clods cling together?
39 “Can you hunt the prey for the lion,
Or satisfy the appetite of the young lions,
40 When they crouch in their dens,
Or lurk in their lairs to lie in wait?
41 Who provides food for the raven,
When its young ones cry to God,
And wander about for lack of food?

[mwfanelli2]

[COLOR="Blue"]The Key word here in this statement is create. This brings up a very good point... The bible starts out by making a very bold statement...

As we stated over and over again in the "other" thread, you are using a written document that you have chosen to believe is somehow holy. The only people you can use this stuff as evidence on are other believers. To those of us who don't see the bible as anything special, it's just nonsense and doesn't prove anything.

[Loupey]

You know, that it is plausible that the early Earth was "contaminated" by debris falling from comets and meteorites. Aliens don't have to be big, nasty, green, or gut-popping.

It is just possible that all subsequent life on Earth are "extraterrestrials".


How cool is that!


Edit: I guess I spilled the beans by implying that I believe in evolution

[mwfanelli2]

You know, that it is plausible that the early Earth was "contaminated" by debris falling from comets and meteorites. Aliens don't have to be big, nasty, green, or gut-popping.

There is growing thought that water on Earth was brought here by collisions early in Earth's life. I find that interesting because, as you say, that could also mean we are nothing more than contaminants!

FWIW, Green Bank (NRAO) has been studying organic molecules, large ones, in nebulas of the Milky Way. When first discovered, it was a huge surprise. Now, even more complex structures are being found.

Edit: I guess I spilled the beans by implying that I believe in evolution

Thanks to genome molecular biology and biochemistry, evidence for evolution continues to pile up very quickly. Supernatural explanations are getting more and more frantic. It's sort of the same thing as when supporters of the geocentric theories of the churches long ago were dragged kicking and screaming to a heliocentric point of view and then, gasp, finding out that the orbits of the planets are ellipses instead of perfect circles! With what we know today, those people would be catatonic.

[mwfanelli2]

And why would alien life forms from wherever have human shapes?

We know they all look pretty much the same as us: Star Trek proved that. They couldn't say it on TV if is weren't true!

[jgredline]

Thanks to genome molecular biology and biochemistry, evidence for evolution continues to pile up very quickly. Supernatural explanations are getting more and more frantic. It's sort of the same thing as when supporters of the geocentric theories of the churches long ago were dragged kicking and screaming to a heliocentric point of view and then, gasp, finding out that the orbits of the planets are ellipses instead of perfect circles! With what we know today, those people would be catatonic.

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

[mwfanelli2]

But how does evolution explain ''matter''..Where did it come from? Who or what created it?

That is the difference between science and other fields such as religion and philosophy.

Science describes HOW things work. I can give detailed accounts of inertia and how it interacts with everything else. Asking WHY mass has inertia is not a scientific question: there is no way to apply the scientific method to it. For that question, you need philosophy and religion or some different supernatural explanations. Once again, neither philosophy nor the supernatural have ever answered a single logical question. You have to choose to believe without logical proof whatever they tell you.

But the "hows" have this nasty tendency of expanding their range, pushing out the supernatural stuff that was holding their place. People used to believe all sorts of crazy things about how objects in the sky moved. It took Newton and Einstein to apply gravity. Galileo was heavily persecuted by the church because he kept changing the "mysterious" wonders of religion into explainable hows. The same with how the sun works, how stars are formed and die, tracing DNA backwards using male offspring, etc. "Wonders of God" become "Hows" as time marches on (although there really is no absolute time!).

But fear not! There will be many more unknowns than knowns throughout your life and the lives of many more generations. You can apply whatever supernatural explanations you want! But as time goes on, people and aliens in the future will look back at our civilization and see Christianity, and all of our other religions, as quaint and silly just as we look back at the Egyptians, Greeks, and Romans.

No matter what you do, change occurs, progress is continuous, and digging one;'s heals in only slows things a little bit. Just wait until those aliens land and say "Howdy!" You say it will never happen but never is a very long time. I have a secret faith (!) that it will happen. I would love to see the frantic scrambling that goes on when the devout religious types can no longer exhibit the towering piles of hubris, that humans are the be all and end all of life, at the center of it all!

[Xia_Ke]

Of course, our government has the funds to do so. Our country has wasted so much of our money on space programs, why not go farther in debt investigating the extremely minute chance of other life forms.

Well, at least it would be better spent than on these stupid baseball steroid hearings...LOL

[mwfanelli2]

On another note, Where and what do you teach?

Physics (levels of conceptual through calculus-based), conceptual Physical Science, Light Science (physics for visual arts students), weather, and various math courses. Not all at the same time, of course!

[Loupey]

This thread I like.

My personal views:
1) Is there life "out there"? Yes, probably teeming with them.
2) Are there any "intelligent" life out there? Yes, but only a small percentage as compared to #1 above
3) Have any intelligent life visited earth? I seriously doubt it (from a logistical standpoint)

On all the planets and moons around all the stars in all the galaxies, we surely can't be "all there is". Come on, just look at us. Look at what we do to one another and listen how we talk to each other.


And when we discover them, I'm going to photograph them/it/him/her

[jgredline]

I find this very interesting! It is a topic I dedicate a bit of time to in my classes when I am teaching astronomy. The breakdown runs along the way we see here:

1. Religious: Man is the center of the universe so we are the sole benefactors of god's attention.

2. Practical: If I don't see hard evidence I don't believe it.

3. Eyewitness: So many people report seeing UFOs, and all are alien life forms (!), it has to be true.

4. Abductees: Aliens love to stick probes where they don't belong.

5. Statistical: With so many stars, if only 10% have planets.... you know the drill..

6. Grab bag: variations on, and mixtures of, the above.

7. The very interesting comments by Stephen Hawking that shoots down the statistical approach. I'll reveal this later on.

My students are overwhelmingly in favor of "unlikely." Odd. I'm more along the "practical" track but secretly hoping for LGM to be true.

Pretty good list.
For ''fun'' and I say ''FUN'' IT might be interesting to look at all seven views. While I clearly fall into the first one on your list, I would love to hear what others believe in regards to where they fit on the list....

Having been in many debates over the years, I feel it is important to say this...That at the end of the day we remain friends..How do we do this? Simple...
Respect each others view and opinion.
No Ad Homien attacks, we are not kids
and finally, Agree to disagree....

On another note, Where and what do you teach?