Help - What caused this?

[photophorous]

Well, I may have spoken too soon when I said I haven't had any processing errors in a long time. But, I really don't get this one. I don't understand what could have caused it. So, I'm hoping maybe one of you has seen something like this before.

Ignore the dust spots. The problem is the dark band that goes vertically across each shot. These two frames where side by side on the roll, and the dark band lines up from frame to frame. I can see it on a few other frames from the same roll, but most are fine. I'm sure there were plenty of chemicals in the tank, and they were all fresh. This was not the first roll from this batch of chemicals, nor was it a new camera. The only thing I can think of that I did differently with this roll was less agitation than usual, but I don't think it was enough different to cause a problem. I'm stumped. Any ideas?

Thanks,
Paul

[drg]

This has the classic look of an incorrect amount of either developer or fixer in the tank. That problem usually, however, happens more toward one edge of the film or the other from improper levels.

Another 'usual' cause for something similar to this is the film is not flat or it wrinkled on the spool and may be rubbing on the spool and on itself all the way around in the tank and creating a pocket for the chemistry to 'settle' in or be blocked depending on whether the it bulges or sags. This looks like the emulsion side was holding chemicals longer in one trough.

Self loading tanks (the plastic/resing twisters) as opposed to stainless are I believe more prone to this.

Just one roll? If so I'd guess a loading problem.

[Xia_Ke]

drg, would that produce a straight band like that? I thought that produced more of a straight line instead of a band?

[another view]

I do see both of these as bands. The one at the top is closer to the left side and the second is closer to the right. I'm not sure what would cause this... Paul, is this how the negatives themselves look - darker bands on the negs?

[Xia_Ke]

a_v, in the second shot, I see a very clear band, even clearer then the first one. I saw something similar on another site one time and I think it turned out that it was a shutter issue. Has this ever appeared o any other rolls?

[drg]

A shutter problem can cause a band like problem if the shutter is sticking or jumping. That is only with a focal plane shutter and not a leaf shutter. Secondly, a flash sync problem may cause a band or one side of the exposure to be total over/underexposed but not down the middle usually. And this is across not along the length of the film.

The original post by Paul - photophorous indicated the bands line up from frame to frame and by this I took that he meant along the length of the film as opposed to across the film . . .

[Xia_Ke]

Thanks drg

[photophorous]

Thanks for all the responses.

Steve, this is how the negatives look.

DRG, I'm sure there were plenty of chemicals in the tank. I always measure everything out before I pour it in.

Aaron, this is the first time I've seen this.

When I said the bands lined up, I meant between these two shots; the top of one lines up with the top of the other (I turned the camera different directions for two vertical shots in a row).

The loading problem seems most likely, although I would expect more of a gradual change, where this has a definite edge. I usually don't have loading problems, but this film (Acros) feels a little more flimsy than my usual Kodak stuff, so it's definitely possible. It's only my second roll. I'll be more careful loading next time, and hopefully the problem won't repeat itself.

I appreciate the help.

Paul

[Xia_Ke]

...but this film (Acros) feels a little more flimsy than my usual Kodak stuff...

Agreed. I have only shot it in 120 but, it is much more finicky than any Kodak or Ilford film I have shot, even more so than Neopan 400. I still love it though

[Greg McCary]

I have had them come back from the lab like this before. I thought it was defective film at the time. But mine was much worse than this.

[photophorous]

Agreed. I have only shot it in 120 but, it is much more finicky than any Kodak or Ilford film I have shot, even more so than Neopan 400. I still love it though

Glad it's not just me. I think I might have even kinked the film a little in one of those shots. I can usually tell when it's not loaded right, just by running my fingers along the outside edges of the reel, but I guess that's not enough with Acros.

...I just hope it's not a shutter problem.

[photophorous]

I have had them come back from the lab like this before. I thought it was defective film at the time. But mine was much worse than this.

Did you show it to the lab? Got any examples you can show?

[Xia_Ke]

...I just hope it's not a shutter problem.

What camera were you using? Do the blades look clean? Any signs of rubbing? I tried finding the original thread I had seen but, couldn't find it

[photophorous]

What camera were you using? Do the blades look clean? Any signs of rubbing? I tried finding the original thread I had seen but, couldn't find it

My Bessa R2A. It's still under warranty. Never had any other problems though, so hopefully that's not it. Maybe I should post this over on RFF.

[Xia_Ke]

It may very well not be the shutter. Could quite possibly be a developing issue like drg mentioned. I'm really not sure but, will be interesting to find out what it is. Couldn't hurt to post at RFF or APUG (sorrry PJ ). Have you put another roll through it yet to see if the problems shows again? Are the frames that the banding shows up on all together or are they scattered through out the roll?

[photophorous]

It may very well not be the shutter. Could quite possibly be a developing issue like drg mentioned. I'm really not sure but, will be interesting to find out what it is. Couldn't hurt to post at RFF or APUG (sorrry PJ ). Have you put another roll through it yet to see if the problems shows again? Are the frames that the banding shows up on all together or are they scattered through out the roll?

I have another roll in the camera now, so I haven't had a chance to inspect the shutter blades. There are about 6 shots in 3 groups, that show the problem, and in every case, it's only visible in the clear sky. I'm not sure if it's present in other shots, but it could be obscured by a more detailed subject. I looked close and couldn't see anything, except in the sky (the 5 most recent shots on my flickr page are from the same roll). I guess flare is a possibility, but that seems unlikely due to the shape. I'll make sure to take a few shots of the clear sky on this current roll (Delta 400 at 1600 ), so if it's a camera problem, I should see it again.

Paul

[Xia_Ke]

Could it be a very slight gap in one of your shutter blades just enough to cause a tad fogging??? I get kind of the same problem with my Rollei. When pointed towards the sun, there is just enough the front face when extended focuing, that I get some fogging bands around the edges of my film.

[photophorous]

Could it be a very slight gap in one of your shutter blades just enough to cause a tad fogging??? I get kind of the same problem with my Rollei. When pointed towards the sun, there is just enough the front face when extended focuing, that I get some fogging bands around the edges of my film.

I guess it could be a problem with the shutter, but your problem sounds different. Doesn't the Rollei have a leaf shutter (same as the Yashica)? If you only have the problem when the lens is extended, it's probably leaking in around the edges (don't know the terms) where the moveable front face connects with the main body of the camera. Could just be some seals need to be replaced.

[Xia_Ke]

Sorry, I didn't explain clear enough. It is not a shutter issue with mine. It is around the edge of the face when extended. I was saying that just as I get a similar banding from a light leak. Mine has something to do with the internal baffles but, it doesn't effect the actual image, only the edges of the negative.

[photophorous]

Sorry, I didn't explain clear enough. It is not a shutter issue with mine. It is around the edge of the face when extended. I was saying that just as I get a similar banding from a light leak. Mine has something to do with the internal baffles but, it doesn't effect the actual image, only the edges of the negative.

Oh, ok. I gotcha. :thumbsup:

I'll definitely find some continous tone subjects to shoot so I can see if it happens again. Since this next roll is a different film/developor, I'll be able to tell if it's a camera problem. I'll use a different reel too...just to make sure.

I'll keep you posted.

Thanks!

Paul

[SmartWombat]

Does it only happen in portrait, and not in landscape shots?
Or when angling the camera up, but not shooting straight & level?
That would be a strong indicator of focal plane shutter problems.

[drg]

Does it only happen in portrait, and not in landscape shots?
Or when angling the camera up, but not shooting straight & level?
That would be a strong indicator of focal plane shutter problems.

Orientation of the camera shouldn't make any visible difference in how the shutter is performing unless it has already failed or is about to, like in right now. Even with a polarizer the banding shouldn't be lessened if it is a shutter sync/binding or follow problem.

I talked to a RF fan today who scowled at the mention of ACROS 100 and muttered unkind things about the film and pressure plates in many modern and vintage cameras mechanical cameras. From that source it makes me believe there is engineering at play to take into consideration keeping tension on the film to make it flat as you find in a motor wound camera but not in a manual advance. That would produce another problem however.

If a second roll of film consistently show this, then the final test is to see if the camera syncs with a flash at the appropriate setting. If there's a 'follow' problem, 'The second curtain isn't traveling at the same speed as the first' it will be highlighted when using flash.
Sometimes it is bad enough that you can see the outline if not the surface detail of the shutter itself from reflected light. If that is the case though, usually you wouldn't be getting any even closely usable exposures.

Let us know what other info you discover. I hope it is not your shutter, warranty or not.

[Grandpaw]

I am going to jump in here with you more experienced folks and give my humble opinion. I would rule out developing all together and say it will be the shutter. By this having a perfectly even band and it also only being on certain shots, to me this would rule out the developing process all together. My money is on the shutter, Jeff

[photophorous]

Out of the six shots that clearly show this problem, one of them is landscape and all of them where taken at an upward angle.

There are no shots on this roll that have a large area of continuous tone, except these six problem shots, which all have a large area of sky in them. I'm thinking the problem may exist on other shots, but just isn't noticeable.

Now I'm very eager to finish the roll in the camera. I'll get my flash out and take some shots at the flash sync speed and a few stops below. Maybe I can finish the roll tonight and develop it tomorrow.

Thanks, everyone. I'll let you know what I find.

Paul

[photophorous]

Here's one more shot. When I looked at this one closer, I noticed that the band isn't straight across, so I adjusted the levels to make it stand out more. What do you think? To me, this might indicate that it's not a shutter problem, because I would expect it to be a straight line. But, I'm not sure.

Thanks, again.

Paul